Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Look on histoy of our fight

1945-52 open military fight against red army and comunists





more significant riots, protestes, manifiestations against comunism:

1956



1968





1970






1980-81











and the end

1989

We know It was your system, and we were only waiting for your weaknes, I give you our expirience, you can use it or not it is your choice.

But what I have noticed, Russia which pretends to be so strong ... and Russian society ... weak and not able to resistance.

You don't give me any experience That is not the experience. Only romantic history quite brief bacause you don't mention rebels of 1830 and 1863 as well as 1944.
As you rightly notice everything depended upon first relations among three Black Eagles and second upon weakness of Communism. All victories came when the West started influencing in 1989.
Russia is quite a great state and EU is unable to control it.
So this experience is not for us.
Besides that the majority of protesters are still downstairs in Poland and as to Party activists of Polish People's Republic they were the first in integrate into new system and they are more wealthy now than before 1989.
This experience is more evident and useful for Russians. That is one of the reasons active people don't protest.

yes yes count on Putin

That is the main challenge that makes us anxious. But you didn't mention any slogan...

You have to create your slogan, I m not Russian, you told me not to teach you

You were given the explication some three times that there are many elements in chain between me and Putin. Many corrupted chiefs. You were given more than three times the explication that my main goal is to conquer my area and to oppose some magnates near me. I told you that the doubts in these magnates loyalty toward the president is one of the efficient arms.
No comments, no objections. Again about Putin that will go away next year.

You really think all depends upon one person? You have a peasant view on politics and at the same time try to teach Russians.

I'll be happy to receive good lessons but you don't give them.

I told you about main slogans and main steps possible today. You don't comment.

You started talking about the possible improvement of relations between Russia and EU. You were unable to find any Russian interest in this. Later you told that EU is unable to represent any interest to Russia. For what shall Russia improve its relation and in which direction?
You stated that Poland is an example for Russians. And quote the examples of some rebels and protests without the attention that the majority of protesting people are still loosers downstairs while those from communist system are still upstairs. So, their example is more convenient for active Russians.

Clear your ideas first

ok transformation hurts a lot of people ...

Look on veterans from vietnam, after their fight, forgoten, on the marigin of society ...

My family was always in oposition espesialy in 1945-52 and '80s. And whole family have won on transformation . But there were a lot of people who fighted against comunism and just were not so good in capitalism. Privatisation in some cases were unfair. But now throught young people there is no segregation of children of comunists and opposition. Yes some of the people are realy disappoited, Just imagine two friends form factory and one of them has his own bussines now and antoher one is working part time in factory. Even he live in better conditions he is disappoited because he was on the middle of ladder and now he is on the bottom.

And some of them are disapointed that they were fighting agains coumunism and they lost, and some of those who were in party becomed realy good in free market and they are on the top all the time.

Some of comunists just before transformation frauded some goods and had better start in new system.

We had post-comunists governemnt in our country but they used democracy and were west oriented.

But now we are going in right direction, and we have democracy and free market, our economy is stronger and stronger, and we have freedom of speach, free media ...

According Russia, you have much worst situation 0,1% of your society lives like medieval dukes, and rest just can look on it. All in all you havent fight for your freedom so you dont have the base to be disappointed.

You should made presure for more freedom, you make demostration in the defend of independent local newspaper, when you recive it you ask for more. If you dont recive it you notice your governemnt isnt as good as it pretends to be ... And you get more supporters... There will be monent when your society will see the real face of regime and your regime will notice that it is not possible to be on the top in this system and will think about transformation and their future after ...

Lukasz, that is the worst way.
No interest toward local papers should exist. Paper is quite an obsolete thins and quite expensive. Local protest is concentrated in Internet that doesn't require paper, poligraphic equipment ane even oficial registration. There are many dusputes ans protests in local internet. The most active people are all there.
There are some court disputes connected with local internet. In some places authorities accused internet activists in awaking hostility against police as profession and law-enforcement body in general. These allegations are rejected by activists and they receive supporters in the whole state.
This is only one of such examples.
Don't advice obsilete steps. Internet is ruling now, not papers.

paper was example, what I wanted to say is that you should fight :)))



;)

Why are you wasting force convincing a marasmatic man who spent some 43 years in the state without any notice of real face of rulling circles here?
The main challenge here is to protect against bydlo downstairs. Very littele Polish experience of contacts with this Russian class in 1944-45 impressioned them for three generations. Now imagine: they are always with us.
As to high class, active Russians want to be in union with them protecting collectively against lumpens and inactive people so dangerous in times of tensions.
Such union isn't easy but this is the goal for today.
Russia has a nice prospect to make the life of some 20% middle classers better than in each European state. The rest will also become happy using low-cost. And it will become undangerous in time of crisis.
That is the best way for today. But it requires other measures you mentoned

In 16-17 century it was at least clear what a fighter receives in comparison with inactive people. Inactive were slaves and iregulars - free citizens.
What about special prix for active position today?

so wait for Porshe for 2000$ and we will go our way ...

That is the challenge. Some 20% should gain Golden Liberty. But street protests and parties aren't for them.
Confederacies maybe

Lukasz why are you falsificating my words? You know well we are discussing low-cost not Porsh price reduction. Why are you rejecting the sane idea while many Poles are interested in it? Do you really think all Polish old ladies will agree that low-cost is for Moskals only?

You know Poland was waitnig only for the moment of weaknes of your country, without Soviet Union we would be democratic just after the WWII, now we can go our way. And we do it. You think your way is more proper for Russia, ok it is your choice. Go your own way. We will see who have chosen better

Everybody chooses the possible way. Polish farmers don't cultivate banans. Holland doesn't produce wood.

I think that this business will be a new attempt for russian revolution ;-)))

re: Captain's Daughter.

- I've read it countless times, also in Polish. The whole great Russian novel ( Turgenev, Tolstoy, Goncharov, Chekhov) sprang from Pushkin's prose and Gogol's prose (Dostoyevsky).

Truhlei, no I haven't read Barszczewski. Is it alright?

I'm starting reading your posts from page 12 on, and replying to them.

re: I think that this business will be a new attempt at russian revolution ;-)))

- It wasn't the Poles who played the main role in preparing and carrying out the revolution in Russia, but entirely different than us, certain little nation. Who were they, this nation, Constantine? Guess. :)

On the other hand, it was the Russians who invaded and destroyed our national order, including our monarchy, and took away our independence in the late 1700s....

ehhh ...

The percentage of Polish-speaking people that participated in Communism was the same than Russian one and in communist secret police even higher (before 1936)

That is the truth but one cannot also deny that the main ideals of RP were previously abandoned by the most influential Polish-Lithuanian groups. Bar confederacy on one hand and Enlightment on the other were ruling before 1795. These parties lost RP, not Sarmats.

In Poland comunists were in prison (before WWII)


but no no no not again history

I'm writing about Polish-speaking people within the cSoviet Union. Before 1936 they were highly represented in NKVD and their persentage in Soviet structures corresponded to the percentage of Polish-speaking population or was higher.

We don't discuss Nations now by the reason that Russia as state didn't exist in Communist period. There was a republic within Soviet Union called as RSFSR but it didn't have any army and secret police and even its Communist party (there were no such structures existing in other Soviet republics such as Ukraine or Belarus).
So we should give the analysis of ethnic groups only. Russians and Polish-speaking ethnies were as taken by their percentagies were at least equally represented in Communism within the Soviet Union. Dzerzynski or Kosior (Ukranian communist leader during great Ukranian hunger of 1933) were only the top of these activists.

One of the wrong thing Polish historians commit is the lack of interest toward Polish-speaking people life within the Soviet Union despite the fact there were mollions of such people. Not all people had enough possibility to use Optation and return Poland in 1921-1922. Only some people from west regions.
The majority of them were out of Communist activities or NKVD service (as the majority of Russians). Their difference with Russians consisted in the fact that they were by some 90% middle classers. There were also lumpens that integrated Communism and some bolchevists romantics (if romanticism can be even mentioned while we are discussing communism).
The rest was opressed by Soviet power. There were many times more victims among them than at Katyn.
I was unable to find Polish-speaking relatives of my mother despite the fact they are mentioned in Internet. The point is that all relatives mentioned are in list of those murdered in 1937-1938.
But the same situation was with Russian middle classers. I didn't feel any difference between my father's Russian ancestors and my mother's Polish speaking relatives.
The same life in fear, the same attempt to keep past in secret from children by the reason that children can tell smth. at school. The same losses of houses and lands.
The only difference was that Polish-speaking ancestors had relatives abroad and that could become known to NKVD.

What? Where did you see the order in Poland in 18 cent.? You destroyed your "national order and monarchy" yourselves, and even earlier, in 16 cent. Remember Henry de Valois!