Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

You have started repeting lie which was discuter here, (3rd May constitution !!!)

I think that you want discuss it again to hide your "way of thinking" we have seen on last pages... no ,no my dear ConstantineK, last pages show exactly what all the people should know about our relationships.

Hemmm, dont think that I am antisemit or polonophob, but main revolution elements were Jews and Poles!

3rd May Const.? Sorry, but it was too late to reorganize RP! Moreover Russia, Prussia and Au-Hu were too inflamed by appetite at this moment...

be careful with your appetite ... Soviet Union beaten by Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

as to history, do you remember ?

You were on the knees only on front of Poles

You will remember them as well :

Ha-ha....Matejko !!! He was colorful painter but had disputable views. Moreove here depicted Pskov sage, but at that times Pskov had centrifugal forces

Lukasz,

The appetite was quite common with all Nations before (and still today if we take USA military activities into account).
Sweeden, quite a modest state now, formerly was trying to convert Baltic sea into its own local lake. Germany, Austria and Russia were all enthusiasric in indea of receiving new territories as well as France or UK.
As to RP it didn't have enough force to follow these examples. That was the reason of being the victim, not any profound convincing that agression and opression is negative.
In cases RP was able to opress, that was done without any hesitation.
Very few stone (not wooden) Orthodox churches were built in Poland and Great Lithuania. Each of these churches was a great event.
RP imposed Greek Catholisism and closed many Orthodox churches. Greek Catholic Church was also disciminated in RP and no one of its bishops was senator.
That was the attitude towards minorities in RP. Fore more opression and expansion RP didn't have enough force.
Poland between WWI and WWII is also famous by opressing minorities. There are many facts that show Orthodox Polish citizens were discriminated and after high school found it very uneasy to receive an adecuate job being Orthodox.
Many discriminations of Orthodox minorities were noticed not only by Eastern residents but also by Western Europeans. There were also problems not only with Orthodox people but also with Slovak minority.
For more Poland didn't have force. Only to participate in such actions as Czesz partition in 1938.

Is it a good way to condemn those who had force to opress is the only reason why RP and later Poland didn't follow that examples was the lack of force only?

pain :)

ok so maybe Russian tsar, who came to Cracow asking Polish king for help , we werent interested so he converted into catolic religion and gained support of some Polish nobels who helped him to take moscov and were using him as a puppet :) we were there before Napoleon and we were much longer there (Polish flag was on the top of kreml) ...

False Dimitry case shows us an opposite example. He wasn't supported by szlachta and qualified by the majority of Poles as usurpator. Unfurtunately Zygmund Wasa helped him despite RP interests buy nothing condemning szlachta in general.
The same situation with Wladyslaw Wasa invitation by Moscow in 1610. That was Zygmund's game when he didn't wasnt to follow Pacta Conventa with Moscow and decided to rule in Moscow himself.
In both cases only some RP aventurists participated (invited by False Dimitry in the rirst case and employeed by Zygmund in the second one). Including such personalities as Lisowski sentenced to death in RP.
On the oter hand Russian defenders used RP models for liberating the state. Minin and Pozarski militia was a real RP military confederacy (the use of this model is quite evident). The election of Michail Romanow used in much RP electoral model. There was also a Pacta Conventa approach in 1613.
So RP was a winner. Not by its force but in more glorious case: by its model.

That was the idea of Zygmund, not of the majority of RP szlachta.
Zygmund complicated much for RP. He was under jesuit influence.
There are some historians thinking that Royal powerty in RP was quite weak. This example shows us it was abundant.

During Zygmund jesuits not only imposed Catholic faith. They attracted Russin szlachta not to Greek Catholic Church but to Roman one telling illiterate people that Easern rite is only for chlopy.
They destroyed checks and balances in in Ukraine and that was the main reason of rebels there.
Wladyslaw Wasa was much better. He did his best to correct his father's mistakes but it was too late.

Agree we were so stron because of our model, everybody wanted to join us to get the same rights as our citizens. That is why our neighbours were so furious about our contitution in XVIII century ...





Oh yes minorietes had easy life in our neighbours countries ... espesialy in Hitles Germany, or ortodox in soviet union ... That is why they were coming to Poland

Yes I agree.
But when even a telegraph was still out of existence, such democratic rules could be only in a limited territory. Even in RP real democratic state existed in a limited territory of historical Poland and Central part of Great Lithuania. In territories organized in 14 century to oppose German agression.
Kresy were out of democracy. They were always wild.
Human history doesn't know examples of democracy in great territories before some 1850 when telegraph and railway appeared. USA were quite a separated states before.
If it takes elected parlamentarians more than 3 weeks to reach catital no popular representation is possible. Only metropolian oligarchy.
Russia received the opportunity to become democratic only in the second part of 19 century, but that was the perioud of revolutions in all Europe.
There were many attempts to establish democratic rule before. During Wassily Szujski (1605-1610), Michail Romanow (since 1613), Anna (in 1731) but they all were blocked by little nobility. Middle classers reasoned their opposition by the reason they can't participate in ruling the state from province and democracy will mean the dictatorship of some magnates only.

Do you really think it is good for reputation of any state to compare inself with bolchewicks?

When RP democracy was in action that was a nice example. In the late 18 century that tradition was abandoned in RP

we play the same games all the time ...








Look on the map, terietories which belonged to Poland votes for democracy, especially those which were in Poland in 1918-39 . they tasted life in Poland and in Russia.



It could go better, but it seams that Ukrainians catched the rules of free election ... so it is good step. We had our Oleksy as well, so maybe Jankuwicz will not be so bad. We will see after up coming elections. But the people on the streets knows what they want ...

Why in this case the reputation of Poles is so different in 16-17 centuries and in 19-21?
Formerly Poles were enemies for many its neighbours but highly respected enemies. Nobody told about Polish-Lithuanian szlachta anything common with today opinion in Germany for example.

Ex Polish territories were Juszenko voters. That is the West Ukraine. It is Greek Catholic in its majority. They are a separated ethnic group. I don't think that occures only because they were Polish. Austrian influence is more sensible there. By Austrian inspiration they became murderers of Polish-speaking people. Poland will have problems with them again.
Ukranian Central territory didn't belong to RP or Poland since 18 (sometines 17) century. They were Timoszenko voters. The East Ukraine was never Ukranian before 1917. They are Janukowicz voters. Among them only Janukowicz family was Polish before 1939 by the reason they were West Balarus residents.

The first serious conviction of the sort I hear. Are you sincere?

LOL Germans were always Polonophobic with anty-Polish propaganda. Read some books ...

We dont worry they were on the knees as well :)))



Do you know that after smashing your army in 1914 near Tanennberg they told that it was the revange for Poles (there were some Lithuenians, Tatars, and Smolensk troops) smahing them in 1410 in the bigest medieval battle (Grunwald very close to Tannenberg).



The true is that for them slav is slav

I'm sure Poles and Lithuanians had a different reputation among Germans in 16-17 centuries. As to Russia I'm absolutely sure bacause I read lots of opinions of that perioud. RP was a respectable enemy and szlachta was the main example of behaviour.
All that ended by the second half of 19 century when Russians started to imagine Poles as an ordinary Slav ethnie.

I dont mean they were Polish(most Poles form there lives now in western Poland mainly Wrocław/Breslau) , but that they know democracy and other life. And idependent Ukraina is our natural ally, dependent Ukraina is problem ...

True.

Brutto. Netto less than $800 and prices in Russia are lower, so It's the same crap. Both countries are poor.

minus EU dotations for Poland

Look on the map in one of my privious posts, they were our fief than. They had to be polite. They were protestant (Germans from Prussia) (they were beging our King on the knees for permition to become protestant), pope asked us to smash them. But we were tolerant ... and we gave them live in way they wanted ... The bigest mistake in our history ...

WTF ? You think that they pay our wages ?

Lukasz you have started admiring by freedom. Now you are for opression of protestants. Even in the perioud when religious minorities weren't persecuted in different states (even in Russia if we discuss German protestants).
Clear your ideas please.

Besides that we are talking about Polish-Lithuanian reputation in Europe. Reputation can't be imposed by force. That is the question of respect.
I wrote Poles and Lithuanians had a higher reputation in Moscow state in 15-18 centuries. Despite the loss of force.
I wrote you that reputation existed still before 1830 in ruling circles and Polish-Lithuanian little szlachta had a high reputation among Russian middle-classers unrill 20 century.
Shall you oppose to these facts? You have a different information about Russia?
I only supposed that it is a common rule. I only supposed that Germans< Austrians and Brits were of the same respect even if they weren't opressed (or not opressed) protestants. Even if they were away from RP and independent.
I only supposed that because I don't have enough information.
I noticed that Poland today doesn't have equal reputation as it had before. That was my idea

Grzegorz,

There is a dispute between me and Lukasz. I think the improvement of economic situation is possible not only by the increase of buying capacity. I wrote the way to reduce the cost of production of some goods is of the same importance. I wrote that it is technologically possible to build cottages for 17000 USD, to produce cars of 2500 USD and laptops less than for 100 USD.
I wrote that such low-cost helped the social development of Western states some 60 years ago (Levittown, Citroen 2 CV etc.) but nothing of the sort is possible for the rest of the world today.
I also stated that today a great research in this spheres is required and that it can take billions of USD. I told that answering the question of Lukasz what can EU do in order to improve the situation in the world and relations with Russia (as only part of this global process). I also stated that Poles are clever enough to add such idea of EU low-cost monitoring Buerau (for start) to its common proposals.
That was my opinion. It is clear that is not a present to the rest of the world. Donations from all developping states are required but only EU seems to be the international body able to coordinate the process.

In my opinion it is also in the interests of such states as Poland because there are many old people here who need a cheap car, and many Poles will never go to work abroad if cottage for 17000 is possible.

I think Lukasz is laughing at my idea.