Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Don't take it too hard my slavic brother))
As for "state" it was genocidal towards russians mainly. And it was titled Soviet Union - communists hated the historical name.

Yes. I know.

The Kingdom of Poland invaded Russia and occupied
Moscow way before Nepolean and made Hitler look
amateurish.

The most important thing is finding a way to get on
in the future. It's not looking too good at the moment.

No, Grzegorz, the point is that now without Soviet soldiers you are unable to write here that some traitors families still prosper following the opression of patriots in the past. Prospor because they still have clans that persecuted liberty in the past. Clans of mutual assistance (read Jaro respected by you as well as by me).
The point is that you can't mention next door traitors family and cut his hair as it was after war/ Or - in a human society - at least make yhese families remember their past and at least support your Jaro by fear of social boikot. The vice versa they make propaganda against twins.
Unfortunately Jaro didn't prepare well to that fight.
In such situation it is so easy to condemn all Russians. They are away, have their own problems and won't react to your words in such way as postcommunist clan with guys in your street may react.

What... ?

There is a real chain. No perspectives for traitors without Soviet soldiers...
But did the Red Army represent any democracy? Did it have any opportunitu to create any konfederacja as it was in Pospolitoje Ruszenje (pardon for spelling)?
In this case nobody could decide to invade Poland and dye for Brealau transmission to Germany.
Did they at least have any opportunity to escape as did thousands of Russian soldiers in 18 century in RP?
So, the reason why Soviet soldiers were loosing their lives in Poland we should find in the past, in Soviet system of opression after 1917.
Nobody elected Soviet power in Russia despite the existence of electoral mechanisms since at least 1906. In Czesz Republic by the way communists were elected in 1948 when Red army was away. But nobody was able to defend himself although the minority started rebels in 1917.
Do you know why this occured? Are sure any Nation is protected now against such tragedy? What do you know about possible protection? Please write it. I'm studying this topic more than 12 years. It is very interesting to learn your opinion

Oh, now theres a group that really respect each other. I'd be embarassed if I were them. Bunch of losers IMO. What military beat each others this way? Pathetic. Are they that bored? But, this is another story.......


carry on :)

It is a lie? No post-communists prospering thanks to clan participation? Well, I'll look for Jaro's topics.

You know the number of KGB agents. You have managed to penetrate into KGB secrets.
As a matter of fact KGB was prohibited by party leaders to have too much agents. Because many agents could permit KGB rebel against party leaders. With the reduced number of agents Andropov managed to blackmail former party leader Breznew. Thet's the reason why only 5 per cent of Soviet people were KGB agents.
People were controlled in another way: party membership was inevitable for career, only party member could controle not only the whole USSR but also every street, every factory. A party member had to support party policy or he could be expelled loosing good career.
You see no difference with Poland

Grzegorz, I think you can't undersand me because you have never contacted people whose Polish speaking ancestors spent the perioud between 1917-1945 within the Soviet Union and have an internal view of all the challenges in the USSR. If you were among them your ideas should be quite different.
I'm sure it is not your merit that your ancestors spent that period in Poland not in the USSR. It was not the mistake of Polish speaking people in the USSR that they faced communism earlier. Many of them were deported to Siberia earlier. Some public servants didn't have right to work among Polish-speaking people. Some left for internel Russian territories by unempoyment at the beginning of 20 century. After 1920 in some Soviet territories it was very dangerous to claim so called optation (return to Poland and its kresy). Many people didn't try to return by fear for their familiars.
In the 30-s hundreds of thousands of Polish speaking people were killed or sentenced to many years of imprisonment by suspect of being spies.
More victims thain in Katyn and post war Poland taken together.
When anybody hates yhat means that he didn't suffer much. Those who suffered much don't have force to hate, only to persist as individual.
For my Polish speaking grandfather the top of heroism was not to change his western name and etnicity in pasport. But his parents had to leave their house in Saransk Volga region and to die away from their home. They were afraid after 1939 when their familiars places Grodno and Oszmjany became Soviet NKVD will learn smth about their relatives that seemed to be successful in Poland.
Or course there were people that suffered more. But everybody for survival had to put their families past in secret from their children. My grandfather didn't return from the war and my mother - his daughter - died with good memories about grandies but with no information about her family. She knew only names and approximately the regions of burth. And admiration of their education and kindness.
Now after my mammies' dearth I learned their genealogy untill 17 century. visited Grodno and folwark my grand-grandfather was born. But even before I learned about their past in archives I visited more and more The places in ancient Great Lithuania they were from. It is like a prenatal instinct of Fatherland. After 40 I feel myself happy in that lands.
You see my family managed to see Soviet power from inside from the very beginning.
No idea that Russian community in general was more guilty in communism than my ancestors? than other Polish speaking people in the same situation.
Look for other people in Russia with Polish speaking ancestors. I'm sure they will tell you the same thing. At least the majority of them.

Litwa is my Fatherland but I'm proud of beeng Orthodox Russian

That's true... and I agree with some things you are saying but the general point is... ?

Let us discuss general point. I think the general point is whichi values should be first defended if you want to escape slavery. And the algorytms of their defence.

Grzegorz Poland and Litwa for Politology is the same thing that Roman Empire for Law.
You can give a term to each process in politics using only Polish and Lithanian History, their political system. Till today you can understand any political process if you know RP political system and history.
RP democracy managed to resist so great attack as Potop and English or American democracies could only fail in such circumstancies. There were no adecuate survivals of any democratic or non-democratic Nation. You know? I'm ignorant. Sritish and American traditional politology is nothing in comparison with algorytms of RP. They were happy to be separated from enemies by seas and ocans, but their internal Civil wars were terrible. I'm deeply convinced in that
But neither in Polish history nor all over the world nobody respects Sarmat perioud. A great perjury in historical researches. Sometimes RP is even not mentioned in history of democratic development.
I should laught at the idea that anarchy killed RP. But see there is nothing in the world that is accepted with such unanimity as this idea. Even the idea that 2X2=4 can find more oppositors.
Polish endowments translate into Russian only historic researches that claim that anarchy was the reason of RP trouble in 1795. Even a moskal can't observe such self-humilation. in case the most RP deficiencies were more common with its neighbours (rokoszy, magnaty corruption). Nobody of these historians can even imagine that Three Black Eagles Union was a strong power. RP as well as each Nation in such situation was unable to reject. That a possible strong regular army could rebel, kill all liberties in RP kill half a population in Spy suspect take all resources of the country and then debilitated RP could be a more comfortable victim for enemies. Nobody noticed that.
Many democrates exist all over the world but when they look at RP they become to teach Tirania. Elected King is bad, reduced superior power is worse, Sejm votation in favour of war or against it is the worst thing. Nobody asked why the poor szlachta was eager to defend Golden freedom although among poor people were no Romantics. Sarmat obscurantism opposed to Enlightment is condemned all over the world - do you know the price of Enlightment, this pre-communism?
I don't speak in details about menor lie. When for example it is written that Liberum Veto killed RP, but only very few researches state that Liberun Veto ended in 1764. Many examples of the sort.
Everybody in the world condemnes RP in generar and sometimes glorifies some romantic heroes. Everybody says there was the worst in Europe the System that gave at the beginning of 16 century right to vote to a higher percentage of people than England in 1832 300 years later.
Polish literature about sarmat perioud isn't translated into Russian and even English. One cannot take from Internet in Russian or English books of Pasek or Rzewiski. Poland is fighting for Belarus democracy but it doesn't give texts on common past (Belarus ruling circles dismiss people researching Litwa history).
Many Polish public servants receive good salaries for Polish propaganda abroad but detailed Polish history isn't translated yet in the leading languages.
Everybody in the world hates RP history or loves it in some perverted forms: Many heroes bad political system.
Grzegorz, Imagine some similar is with Russia. Russia has sins but few people abroad know them (although we don't keep silence - you don't want to listen). And deficiencies you think the main sometimes are only the consecuencies as Soviet soldiers in Poland - they didn't have another way, everything started 30 years earlier. Why? By lack of democracy, poverty? Before 1917 there was a huge economic and political progress and Russia was winning a war.
I'm sure you weren't told about the reasons of communist victory.

re: As for "state" it was genocidal towards russians mainly.

- True. But it was predominantly Russians who committed all those atrocities against their own countrymen, weren't they?

You weren't invaded by another country, another people.

We were.

Hm, I wrote that I should never forgive the Russians, but as I speak to you, Russian guys, my adversity melts out, wehether I want it or not. :)

Maybe that's the way to get rid of adversity - talk to each other, even brutally and hatefully, let go the stuff inside?

By the way, the folks of Russian origin I encountered in America were never hostile towards me as a Pole. Especially one person was like a family member to me. But he was born in America and knew nothing about the bitter stuff between our nations.

a
Allelujah...we're making a break through ;)

PS. Yes, it was the Russans who predominantly commtted atrocities aganst the Russians. Why then you in today allegedly democratic Russia haven't even condemned those communist killers, let alone punshed them (if they are still alve)? Why one of them - a KGB creep - rules Russia and the majority of Russians back him singlemindedly?

Would you reply (as Russian natonalists seem to have done in the past) that the human mind is too limited to comprehend Russia?

Why don't you condemn and punish those creeps for their horrific crimes?

Daisy, my flower - its been always so wth Puzzler on this forum. Yet only shopgal seemed to understand my 'therapeutical' method. Im not sure if she still does, as it is kinda straining. But ultimately healing.

Cheers, my English hon.
;)

Have you eve read 'The Schopenhauer cure' by Irvin D Yalom?

I have heard about it. Simlar to mine, the cure?

Schopenhauer was a butthead.

yep, plenty of material for a psychoanylist..which is what Yalom's day job is

re: yep, plenty of material for a psychoanylist

- Would it mean that Puzzler is a bit of a butthead?

If yes, well, I wouldn't deny too fervently.
;)

Such a cutie when you want to be :)

Ahh, it's your right, we don't care about this, but remember one thing, our hatred will be more sizzling

Shopgal, I'm writng something to you n the random chat (no abuse) thread - the continuation of this stuff here, not about Russia, but the 'therapy. As it is off topic here.

That's really something to be proud of.......

For example Dzerzhinskiy, though he was unique worthy Pole !!!

re: Ahh, it's your right, we don't care about this, but remember one thing, our hatred will be more sizzling

- We'll see. Things change; who was powerful and bullying becomes weak and trampled over by his former victims. That's what's going to happen to you, inevitably, if you're not very careful and nice to those whom you have wronged.

By the way, we're not really afraid of you, Russkies. We know you'll get yours yet. It's started, actually.
:)

Dont be so self-centred, nobody in Russia even remember about this episode

And everyone else does.......

re: And everyone else does

- Many of them also do - some in a positive, some others in a negative way.