Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Your post shows a great deal of ignorance. Have you ever been to the US?

If so, they can pay compensation to Polish citizens robbed by Soviet policy.



They are not shifting blame for Russia. They simply never raise the question of UPA crimes and often raise the question of Soviet crimes. Also this is not exactly the government fully responsible but some influential media outlets.

Those people that I mentioned are former Trotskytes turned to euro-socialism. Although these days their political representation is marginal (PD party) but they still control large part of media outlets (Agora media group). While every party that wants to achieve something in democracy must try to live in peace with greater part of journalists. Thus Polish governments are often pushed by those people toward such policy. They will never stop to attack Russia till your country wont become euro-socialist. There is no nationalism behind their motivation at all.

Guys, enlighten me pls.
How does Volhynia slaughter make any excuse to Russian criminals ?

I'm all ear.

This is not an excuse. I simply point out that all these complains from Polish side are out of proportion. If you compare this with Ukraine when UPA seems to be worshiped in th west. This proofs dishonesty of mainstream media outlets. Ukraine is willing to join euro-socialism camp so they can get away without criticism. (Note that I still did not wrote how I personally think Polish policy should look like, just describe current events )

"out of proportion ?"

With all respect to the victims we are speaking about some 100 - 150 thousands killed by UPA and probable 10 times more murdered, starved out, tortured to the death by Russians.

But it's not all.
Today, support for UPA (UNA/UNSO) rather does not exceed 1% in the polls.
On the contrary, Russian president who was a prominent member of the KGB enjoys 60 - 80% support..

?Poles were considered to be winners in the war.You should ask for compensations by the defeated forces.Did Americans or Britsih pay compensations to French for the bombardment of France during Normandy operations or between 1940-1944?Did they pay compensations to Italy which was another winner?This the war.Defeated pay compensations to winners.Ask Germans to pay you for the destruction of Warsaw.



Because the russian criminals slaughetered the butchers of UPA in Volhynia.Till now the tension is between red army soldiers and UPA soldiers.They hit each other when they meet.(The West waits for the rest of them to die in order some progress to be made).

What's your point ?
Russians slaughetered Polish partisans as well.

The Germans are another problem not related to this case. If Soviets caused harm to Polish citizens then the latter should be compensated. Americans freed France and thus eventual compensations for incidental damage was pushed to French government. Soviet harm was intentional, this is simple criminal case.

Who's right then? Celinski said above that question had been raised up already.
In case you're right lesser it's even worse I believe. Because this makes new questions emerge. WHO has perished Poles in Volhynia?

and the answer in the lack of information will be like that:



At that point I would call them "Russian"... the ones who perfomed that crimes were russian-spoken only...




Where did you get these fugures and have you been to Ukraine? They look good only for Eastern Ukraine, if you mean Western Ukraine or Ukraine on the whole those figures are out of place. BTW didn't you know that current ukranian president openly encouraged UPA's veteran's because "they have always fought for "nezalezhnost" (independence) of Velika Ukraina"?

They gave them pensions for their patriotic attitude during the war.Former red army soldiers who are also given pensions were outraged and the two groups collided violently in Kiev.
Bandera is very popular in western Ukraine.Many streets in Lvov are called Bandera street.

Dear Oscypek:
"Your post shows a great deal of ignorance. Have you ever been to the US?"
Yes, I been to the US several times. Beautiful country, a lots of empty spaces, friendly (a bit simplistic), very hard working population. If you live there, you should notice that I gave the US population more credit that it deserves. Most Americans do not know where Russia is and know that Poland is a part of Russia. Ask any of your American friends and you would be surprised.
Good question for well educated Americans is where the following quote comes from: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need(s)", most will answer American Constitution.

Good response. I've lived there more than year. I thoroughly share all aforesaid. Initially I didn't understand how that might show any ignorance. Ignorance is when people ask me whether I came to the US by plain or by train (from Moscow), or the US was the country that had defeated Hitler, or when people assure me that Srbija is a part of Siberia. :))

Ah, Poland is NO longer a part of Russia anymore - hasn't been, since her independence nearly 2 decades ago...of course, that's stating the obvious.

And - most Americans DO know where Russia is - I've asked many times. Drummed into our heads, including where Moscow is early on.

Bah, why do I even bother on here, I wonder?? I thought we could talk without cutting others down...but then whatever I said next, no matter how sarcastic, would be taken as an insult.

I much prefer my international friends in real life - at least we actually have many things in common, instead of mindless bickering.

Where did you get these figures and have you been to Ukraine? They look good only for Eastern Ukraine, if you mean Western Ukraine or Ukraine on the whole those figures are out of place.

My figures are based on the elections' results.
They differs from East to West but under 1% is the average.

Then, how does it count in this discussion if I've ever been to Ukraine or not ?
Enlighten me pls.

So Yanukovic got just 1% in the elections?

Yanukovich is not UNA/UNSO.

Sorry.Mistake.Yanukovic is the opposite side.I thought you wrote the opposite.Have you ever been in western Ukraine?Do you know what people say about Bandera?Do you think Timoshenko who is popular in the West will ever make a statement about UPA crimes?The guys were given recently pensions by Yushenko government.Is it because they represent only 1% of the population?
Ukraine is divided into two parts.It is obvious to anyone.The numbers in one part do not matter as long as the numbers in the other part are different.(Kiev is another zone).
If 95% of eastern Ukraine condemns UPA crimes,it is likely that they support soviet policy there as well.And it does not matter if 70% of western Ukraine is in favour of Bandera,although the population of this part is considerably lower.Either you accept Bandera,or you want the country split.

You are confusing two different things:
political support for radicals like UNA/UNSO which is rather low even in the Western part and some very strong myth of "freedom fighters" unfortunately represented by Bandera, OUN, UPA.

For the time being it would be counterproductive to fight the myths.
Ukrainian independence is still very young and needs clear lines of historic tradition.
We have to choose:
either we start discussing the past or we consolidate all pro-Western powers in order to keep Ukraine European not Russian.

For me it's some rhetoric question.

Well, partisanen is very bad thing, especially if they are not the same nation as you.

Whether you trust me or not this is your problem. Just stop making false concussions based on my posting. Poles are aware who committed which crimes. Beside of that this is not Ukrainian matters this threads is about.



How do you know this?



Your defense of your country make Russia look even worse than deserve. From how many nationalities Soviet army was composed?

Once again I say "We dont care about how Russia looks like, becouse we are rather self sufficient"

Really?
How many?
How do people know which Bandera Street is which?

OK, so from how many nationalities Soviet army was composed?

very many, but primary it was russians, ukranians and belarussians

So how it was with this communist regime in your opinion, internationalistic or perhaps represented pure Russian national interest?

Lviv Polytechnik university.
Stepan Bandera str.12,Lviv

URL

Sure it was internationalistic in comparisson with those minore despoties which formed after its collaps, such as georgia or turkmenia...all governments in soviet republics were consisted both frof russian and national members.

This is interesting but just one street.

It is the known one because it is very central.There is the building of state university ''Lvivska Polytechnika''.After all Bandera was a cultured man.(just kidding).

Monument to Stepan Bandera in Lviv.Modern statue.

URL

I knew about monument, just I don't know why you insist on few streets named after Bandera in Lviv. One city cannot have more than one street named in the same way.