Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Yes, and Stalin didn´t like any of his "old friends" to be around because they could use something in his past against him.

There were also other reasons. They were fighting for detronement in past and didn't have any obstacles to "detrone" Stalin.
A praetorian syndrome was a real danger. I'm sure there was a plot among militars. The text or Trial of Tuhachevski is still a secret.
In ChK-GPU-NKVD I didn't manage to find even omly one man of State Security who entered political police before 1935 ind honorably came to pension after 1957, a typical situation for law enforcement bodies all over the world
Besides that a sanation was required because the majority was composed of criminals. I read many researches on Soviet History and only two or three times met the mentioning of Red Guard (Russian SA analogue in 1917) veterans as Soviet servants in 30.

As to Kuusinen (in Soviet Union he was Otto not Ville), we know very few facts about him. To be invissible is the mail mean to survive in Soviet Nimenklatura.
I only know all his familiars (wife and daughter) were fanatic communists and also very unhappy people. His only grandson died in childhood. Kuusinen died being one of 10 Soviet leaders but he was so lonely.
Maxxx Payne you are from Suomi? I have some questions on Shutskor (irregular Suomi troops in 20-30). It is away from this forum. My e-mail is truhlei@mail.ru I'm speaking English Spanisp and a little Portuguese

Why do you think so? Do you know the principle of bicycle race? To be the second. Less force. The leader spends more force. USA are comfortable for Russia and many other ex rivals. But sometimes it seems USA are comitting a suicide as superpower. They don't have enough force to controle all the world and pay more attention to democratic propaganda and direct actions without any attention to creation of social and economic circumstancies dor democratic development

Hemm? Max! Sure, this war is not great boast, and i say more it was shameful war, but be honest pls, Suomi was on the Hitler's side during WWII, may be falsely but it was !!!

Let us returned to the topic Poland-Russia: never-ending story?.
Soviet-Suomi relations is a good topic for a detailed discussion apart.

The Polish government should seek some kind of understanding with Putin...he is flexing
his/Russia's muscles right now, and he is very cold-blooded towards their enemies, but
this was neccesary after certain 'alien elements' tried to bleed Russia dry during the
Yeltsin years...He doesn't want US missiles in Poland, and this is completely understand-
able...but he is a Slav, NOT a Communist, and Russia is Poland's most powerful neighbor
and sometimes nemesis...say no to the missiles, and maybe seek Russian help in building up Poland's defense...Poland does not have to kow-tow to the Russians, but it
must be pragmatic, and not depend on the US, which is run by an organized crime syndicate.

Ok, sorry off-topic, I´ll end my part here but tell last: Finland was not a German ally in 1939 by any means, even the far-righted Finnish condemned Germany for taking over Czech in 1938 and like said, UK and France supported Finnish fight and even promised troops as did Polish. Almost everyone else but Germany supported Finnish. What happened after the Winter War is another story, and Finland really did some bad choices and we paid costly for those in the end.

I'm sure Suomi heroism during 1939-1940 was the main Reason communists gave up even thinking about its sovietization after 1944.
My grandfather's brother participated in the war 1939-1940. He told that at the beginning of the war soviet militars were told Finland is becoming a Soviet republic (later soviet archives confirmed that), but as he told me in 1980 occupation was possible only in case of murder of all Suomi people.
He was stroken by Suomi heroism.
My relative died in soviet epoch. He was a man of his epoch and didn't know secret for soviet population information we know now. He thought that war although being bad attempt to occupy Finland helped to defend Saint Petersbourg in 1941-1944 because before the Finish border was only 30 km from the city and it was easy to take the city by sudden avance.
Now I know 1939-1940 was the only reason of Suomi participation in the WWII and that without 1939-1940 the troops circle surroundinh Saint Petersbourg was impossible as well as hunger in the citi and more than a million of hunger victims.
But my relative didn't have access to that information. Despite that he told me: I'm happy I didn't kill any Finish soldier. Believe me: these words mean much when they are pronounced by a Russian man in Russian province closed for foreigners (Nizny Novgorod Volga region) in Soviet period.

As to Suomi mistakes, I shall mention its participation in that hunger blocade and cynic cooperation with Soviet power in 1960-80 not only by fear but by economic interest

Maxxx Payne
I have some questions on Suomi history. My e-mail is truhlei@mail.ru

Hunger blockade ? No, Finland did have internation camps in Eastern Karelia, but there was no participation in siege of Leningrad, Field Marshall Mannerheim was asked by Germans to take part but he refused.

But anyway thanks for your comments, we shall continue it by email.

sorry for OT again

You see I am still ignorant

I like Russians as the pepole, I think we are in some issues similar (language, cusine, traditions ect.) But our coutries has different abitions, intersts.

I have met alot of Russians or Ukrainians and we had good time together (vodka ;) )

I was born in eastern Poland (now I live in Poznan), and fore example Białystok was always full of easten slavs, who come to trade or work (illegaly) as we did in western Europe 3 years ago. And it realy disturbs me when somebody is trying to sort them in way STALIN = PUTIN = COMUNISM = RUSSKIES. I dont like when somebody hates me becase of Rydzyk Kaczysnki or Giertych.

What is more those people are realy friendly, hard working, and please stop behave like Germans in relationship with Poles.

All in all i think that history is history, politicians are politicians, but PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.

I FORGIVE BUT NOT FORGOT

What i want to admit, in relationship on the level of goverment (not people) we want Russia to live their own live and leave alone coutries like Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states. We are independent countries!!!!

What is more, ambitions of Russian authorytary government looks very funy I would say it was faltstart made by Putin .Russiaan coutry even has gas and oil, isnt strong enougt to play the game it stared plaing. And those bombers sended close to UK ... ;) some time ago Russia tried to show Poland as sick coutry in realtionships with them, but afer the rumors in Estonia, braking ati nuclera agreements, sending bombers very close UKs terytory, because of accusing them of their special agents ...

When i talk to Russians they are very often jealous, because we can change our government in election. And they can be only happy when new authorytary leader is better than last one. It is very sad because without democraic Russia it will be very hard to be calm about their aims and ambitions.

But what I want to underline : relationships betwen Polish and Russian people are much different story than relationships beetwen our governments.

Ooops, again!!! Why are you trying to separate russian as a nation from russian government? As I know, about 75% of Russians support Putin and his government! Or this figures are false?

I dont know if they are false or not. I just noticed that russians rather likes Poles, maybe I have met those who have seen something in Europe, and knows why Poland have chosen the other way, and that all the things your television is showing in russia is one big S**T.


I find them very friendly ...

What is more, russian society in Germany were suporting Poland team in World Cup not German (in match PLvs Ger) so it shows that love beetwen Russian and German government is something much different than friendship beetwen people ...

What is more, If your government is so strongly supported by citizens, so why it is so scary about free media, free elections ??? Why your governent kills jurnalists ??? In Poland we havent any accident of killing in unknown circumates any jurnalists since 89 ... In russia there were about 50 ...


All I think about Russians is that they are realy ok, but they dont know the feeling when you have democracy and you can change your goverment.

Polish people will never understand why Russians parked themselves outside town.
And sat by while they were slaughtered.
Then Improssoned by there liberators
Nor why they Ruled them with an iron fist for years after.

Just a thought..
There is a lot of history involved.


Iv'e been to Russia.
And i loved every moment of it.
And the people were Incredible..

Mb in time it will fade..

Well I have a good opportunity to trevel through europe too. Moreover, opposite to the most of europeans I know both Russian and English, hence I can read most of europeans newspapers and compare them with Russians. Therefore, my view on the Russian problems more rich and complex, a priori. Sorry! Do you speak or understand russian? I think no! So I think that you haven't correct information about russian TV, only rumours!



Opyat' dvadtsat'pyat' !!!! Why you think that our government kills journalists? Dose somebody prove this fact? But I think that this incidents just symptoms of the dying previous oligarchical regime. Some of this "democratic" jornalists and politics had dubious relations with some of our odious oligarchs such as Berezovsky...



We no need to change our government, we just need only improvement of it.

I dont think that it would be correct to compare Poland and Russia! Believe me, Russia is more coplex state, here we have very many impacting interests, much more than in Poland or even US.

ConsrantineK

First of all i speak russian on bassic level, but we have in Poland neewspapers where you can read current articles from all over the world translated in to Polish. And there are a lot of russian articles ... http://www.tygodnikforum.pl



What is more, do you remember Politkowska ?

I understand that you are true supporter of your authorytary government , but dont try to let me think that it is democratic, or that in Russia you have free media ....

Could you answer me, why you (ConstatnineK) dont belive in deomcracy in your country.
Do you think you are not to good for it (I dont think so)

Maybe Putin is much better leader than durnken Jelcyn ... but do you realy think that Russia has the law to have influence on Ukraina ? Poland ? Baltic states ? Georgia?

You know we like your people, but politicaly we want you to F**K of , you have your country so take care about your siberia, Moskwa, St Petersburg. I dont konw why do you think (ConstatntinK) that your government has the law to have special position or something like that.

I strongly belive that, when the Russian people will have to choice their government in free election, with free media ect. They woudnt support government trying to make form country with 140 mln people (70 mln native russians) empire ... You can be only improtant european or asian coutry (it is your choce europe/asia)

;-)))) Oh !!! Sure !!! Undoubtedly !!! Poles are more skilled in this matter !!! History shows us that this is favourite polish amusement !!! But please, let us not to follow your patterns, pleeeez..........................

maybe jelous is bad world, but I have noticed that Russians would prefer to have political, economical, social situation which is in Poland than in Russia. I m not talking about oligarchs but about normal people.

And the other think is that your "free" media is tallking all the time : " Poland isnt Russia ble ble ble ... Democracy like in the west isnt for us russians ble ble ble ... We have our patterns ... our Putin is great ble ble ble ... Russia is respected again ble ble ble "

re: Polish people will never understand

- Actually, Polish people 'understand' better and fuller than you seem to be able to imagine, mate.

They know first-hand who the lovely Russkies are really like.

I wonder if YOU can ever understand THAT?

And can you understand where your own Russophilia comes from?

In this respect, I recommend to you works by the brilliant Brit historian Norman Davies, for example the recent 'Europe at War.' Pan Books. London 2007.

I wish those who have eyes could read, and those who have ears could hear.
:)

I'm no specialist on Russian or Polish politics but surely both countries would like to be in the same economical, political and social situation, say of the UK. what i'm saying is, there is always something better in the world than what you have.

Every country is in its particular situation due to actions in the past. Russia is in its situation because of Russia, same for Poland or any other nation in the world, unless of course you have been invaded, i.e. Iraq, DR Congo etc etc

......with respect Torny, maybe you should read more on it, or take note of Puzzlers posts then, before you comment on it ?

You really have no idea of Polands history do you ?


:(

well deeerrrrr of course i have an idea its hard not too, we all went to school didn't we, we've all read books haven't we. we all know what Russia did to Poland but in the same way with Germany isn't it about time we put all this stuff behind us, yes remember it fine, all those people who were killed or pillaged throughout the course of time.

However we have to stop pointing the finger at some point, don't we???

re: History shows us that this is favourite polish amusement !!! But please, let us not to follow your patterns, pleeeez..........................

- Perhaps the 'history' as taught in your KGB-land shows you that?

According to this 'history,' among others, you've been the victims of the Poles, right...? :)

So according to you, Konstaninok, the Russki history, with the tyrants-psychopaths, such as Ivashka the Terrible (mass serial killer), Piet'ka 'the Great' (mass killer, sex pervert), Kat'ka 'the Great' (monstrou sex pervert), Pavka (necrophile), Lenin (mass killer), Stalin (mass killer), Brezhnev (mass killer), and the present KGB descendant of those has been superior to Polish history?
:)

re: we all know what Russia did to Poland but in the same way with Germany isn't it about time we put all this stuff behind us

- Alas, evidence, also in this forum, shows that both the Russkies and Krauts understand by the 'putting behind' their turning it all around - depicting themselves as innocent lambs, victims of the Poles (and, in case of Krauts, victims of 'the English' and Americans). They are frmly believe they are too great and important nations to be 'tainted' with the notion of any wrongdoing, especially a wrongdoing to such contemptible weaklings as the Poles.

And what can you do with that, mate?
:)

re: we have to stop pointing the finger at some point, don't we???

- Are you implyng the Poles unreasonably and irrationally 'point the finger' at the Russkies and Krauts?

If yes, would you kindly elucidate that?

Yeah course we have Torny. Silly me, I should have realised you know all about it and it's just to be shoved under the carpet.

Dearie me.........:(

As i said b4, you really have no idea of the history of Poland....:(

Listen to some of the posters on here, listen, learn and appreciate, then voice an opinion......:)