Poland threatens to reject EU treaty

(it is a litle bit of topic)



I have to agree that at the begining of NATO intervention, there was enormous propaganda, about serb monsters killing albanians... And the truth was much different, we all know that all world Powers have their pupils there, and world wanted to beat Russian ally ... In my opinion your situation isnt good, you are surounded by EU countries and you are Russian friend ... your neighbours hate you ... You have to find some friends in EU to present your point of view.

and I dont think this country is Poland it is just general idea.

Thanks for kind words


Agree

Poland should balance and try to be neutral, something like Switzerland of Baltik. Czeska would also especialy profit from such approach, even more then they profit now. In Sovenia exist strong Yugonostalgia, even more then in Serbia in this very moment (I know, have contacts with friends and there are articles on the Net about it).

I think that Serbia tend to have such a relations with NATO (to avoid it on nice way) and if possible to have close relations with EU but not member necessarily. They already started to repair all what they destroyed in bombardment in 1999 (example, they couldn’t use Danube if they don’t repair the bridges that were destroyed and while they didn’t remove missiles that fallen in Danube from airplanes), they helping in rebuilding factories, economy in general, etc. But, they can’t correct all that they did in their conquest. They can’t give us back children and pregnant woman that they killed in hospitals, journalists in radio and tv stations, etc. Not to mention that Serbian Krajina- legitimitate Serbian land (traditionally) was destroyed and people ethnically cleansed. They used even mujaheedines and Al Qaeda against us.

I personally don’t trust to EU. I really don’t have any reason to trust. They had opportunity to help (they offered their diplomatic services and we accepted) but, they choused to push Yugoslavia in bloody Civil War (when Germany cut political dialogue and recognized secession of Croatia and Bosnia; violence on Serbs started- they lost jobs in Croatia, started killings of Serb civilians at night, federal army was attacked in Croatia, Serbs of Krajina said- if Croatia go from Yugoslavia we choosing to stay (it was OK according to Yugoslav and Croatian constitution), Serbs also were in fear because of ustashe massacres during Croatian state in WWII when 700.000 Serbs was murdered, Croatia changed constitution illegally, Croat paramilitary formations attacked Krajina, Bosnian Muslims massacred Serbian wedding ceremony in Sarajevo and attacked federal army and whole region blow up and was colored in red). [That’s how started, after that nobody is innocent.] and, people of Europe get information that Serbs are monsters

I will say again, it was necessary that Yugoslavia become negative example for possible Slavic Union (it was- Kill the dream!) and of course, Serbia was punished for repelling German penetration in region in Balkan Wars, WWI, WWII, for resisting to Turko-German division of region between them and for playing on Slavic card (not Russian but, Slavic in general!).

This is Serbian attitude…

We and our lands are part of Slavic civilization and we can’t be member of some formation which showing hostility on Slavs but, we would like to cooperate and we understand that all who are interested in Balkan as strategic region, need to secure their interests.


I’m aware of that

That’s why I believe that only in final agony, real unity can be achieved. In last moment, in front of the disaster which will have consequences for good

I think, we are not far from that day. Relatively

Well i'm all up for this Slavic Union, it would give those countries a chance to grow helping each other without having to take money from those other bigger nations in the EU.

I'm not to sure how the inter-relations would work but hay i guess where money is concerned any relationship can be formed.

I'll sign on the dotted line on the 'Slavic Union' vote and i'm British :)

Oh come on :) ask sb in Poland about slavic union :)))) to be serious

It is project like united Serbs and Croats or union of Israel and Iran union of Poland and Russia is the same crap.

Why? An ethnically divided eastern Europe a good thing in your opinion?

edit: An Eastern Europe divided along ethnic lines...

Remember that there would be a hugely powerful Russia, no chance for the non-Slavic Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Moldova or Albania.
Would it be like another EU - something you don't even like to start with?
When was the last time the Slavs were one people?
How many people other than Crow even want such a union?

to be very very very honest and probably sounding a little selfish, if it ends the involvement of some of the countries in the EU then i'm all up for it. I don't particularly care if Poland don't see eye to eye with some of the countries involved, heck they have enough bad relations anyway as do we.


yes but the UK and other major nations would not be stumping the bill :)


very good point


thats a quesiton for those who may potentially be involved, maybe even worth a thread of its own? 'Would you like to see a united slavic union??'

Oh yes UK is one of the most pro-EU countries :) why your gov doesnt want to make referedum about EU constitution ? and we will see voting in your parlament ...

I have to surprise you, after negotiations we will agree to sign this constitutuon, and we will see what brits will do :))) I know you count on Poland smashing this treaty but it will not happen :)

our neighbors don’t hate us

Truth is that majority of Serbian neighbors admire to Serbs, for we exactly know our goal and that is Slavic Union. We must endure because it is worth enough.

Just, some powers hate us (not hate but, we are obstacle to them /orientation of Serbian mind). We were obstacle even to Russian hegemony under rest of Slavs.

We always chooses justice and we serve only to Slavdom.

This is how started our first conflict with USA (circa 200 years ago)

First paragraph of Serbian constitution when Serbs liberates from Turks:

1. Even slave if come on land of Serbs, is slave no more


USA demanded in diplomatic note that we remove that paragraph from constitution. Austro-Hungaria and British Empire taken same attitude, pressure.

I eleborated this, already. This is vulgarization. Slavs aren`t some kind of brotherhood (to think about Slavia only as exclusively ethnicaly based union would be abominatiuon to me).

Slavic Union would be above ethic origin. It is fact that Slavs originates from same genetic stock of people but, many more other people joined to our civilization thru time becaus ewe we sucessfull. So, we are brothers on the first place on the base of fact that we belong to Slavic civilization and live according to Slavic heritage.

Slavdom must be taken in consideration as alternative to Germanic world (think about it that way). In Germanic world/civilization (EU/USA/even NATO- for example), Germanic language is dominant and society is based on Germanic heritage.

[

---

quote=tornado2007] Quoting: osiol
Would it be like another EU - something you don't even like to start with? [/quote]

If they had had a common market type arrangement a few years ago with their neighbours ,who also were non e.c,they could have done much to stop the inflation and economic hardship that they suffered.Items from those places were still incredibly cheap a little over 5 years ago.Living in poland became very expensive in a very short time.Wages were the same,the factories all started to close and the food began to cost the same as in the west.I was involved in the fashion trade.A lot of very fine garment factories went to the wall.I suggest that they would have had more time to restructure their busnesses and would still be making clothing now.A lot of industries were affected the same way as textiles.Those people really paid the biggest price for not cooperating with their neighbours.Those industries would now be restructured and Poland would be able to join the E.U as a fair partner, not one that will be totally diminished by the big players.

Slavic union would sound weird for most Poles and I definately wouldn't like to be in any union with Russia but Central European Union (anything between old EU and Russia) would be OK.

Linguistically, they are of the same origin.
Does that mean the Irish have changed their genes because they speak mostly English?
Linguistically, Slavic is still a member of the Indo-European family - Germanic, Italic, Celtic, Indo-Iranian.
Why chose this particular distinction.
Hungary is in a similar position to many of the Slavic countries, but you want to set them up as the enemy.
Hmm! That would be great for international stability.

No one will throw Poland from UE never.. its 40milion people market very absorbtive.
All this threats are just a part of the game which is played every day in UE.

The main difference is that for instance :Germans and whole their press stands still behind their chancellor.
In Poland people fell worst because some journalist abroad, somewhere has written something wrong or whatever.

Unfortunatelly 75% of mass media in Poland belong to foreign capital, so its easy to forseen what will be 'private opinions' milions of people (especially young).
Agitating from the inside is very efficient way to get rid of opponent.

UE feels that Poland under PIS government is someone they cannot ignore... Its not Olek who will sign everything on the knees in the name of 'democracy'.

I had opportunity to see on the Net a lot of ideas about possible Slavic Union. Idea is very alive and this is sum up of those ideas that I sow:

- There are even ideas that Slavs can first join to EU and then inside of EU form some cultural association (with or without Russia).

- some people suggest state organization as confederation, some as modern federation, some suggest alliance, some even think about parliamentary monarchy (dynasty wasn’t proposed)

- other voices suggest only cultural union/association with or without EU,

- some people suggest association only based on security and protection from terrorism and natural catastrophes (some kind agreement between Slavic states)

I belong to people who would suggest that Slavs first wait for Christian re-union and then form Slavic Union. I would also recommend Confederation as best model for state organization. Also, before proclamation of Slavic Union I would suggest long open democratic campaign on the principle pro at contra (for or against unity) and I would insist on open debate about opened questions among Slavs (about antagonisms), with direct suggestions for solutions of problems.

to stick to the subject

Poland threatens to reject EU treaty


I feel that more than half of EU citizens count on Poland smashing this project, because only crazy Poles can do it ;))

Why I think so :) It is enought to see why EU leaders are so affraid to do referendum about this treaty in their countries. I would like to see out put of new referendum in Holand, UK, France ... there will be no chance for this treaty ;)))

In my opinion EU leaders should notice that final of this negotiations is just 3 days beffore our elections, If they really want this constitution they should make some commisons ;) all in all we want commisions in cases the most EU citizens wants to have. And who cares that we are going to weak German position ;) to be honest I dont belive that EU citizens want to be leaded by this nation, just because they are the bigest.

as to salvic union without russians

we did in the past

Listen, it is Hungarian state who endanger regional stability, with their provocation of Slovakia and Serbia.

Also,

They have understandings for USA moves in the region and when Russia move, they block Russian acces to Balkan, even if Patriarch of Orthodox Church wants to fly with airplane via Hungaria.

Hungaria is one of German instruments in the region and they won`t hesitate to provoce even war when Germany decide to play that card.

crow my Serb slavic friend I think that slav union is issue for next subiect on this forum

but I have to agree Hungarians are German card in their poker

well, seams to me that we are all very on topic


Let me tell you something

Maybe somebody suggest that Catholic Africans or Italians are closer to Poles then Orthodox Russians? [just taken Russians for example]

or

Maybe somebody think that Orthiodox Africans and Greeks are closer to Russians then Catholic Poles?


Well, when Italian and Greek face each other somwhere in the world, you know what they say? They say: `Una faca, una rasa`

Now, tell me - Why would religion divide Slavs?


but, there is hope...

You know what Catholic and Protestant Lusatian Serbs say to Balkan Orthodox Serbs, anywhere in the world and on the Net?

They say: `Zdravo brate`


I`m all in

let`s start the pool with comments pro at contra


Even one man can make the difference


.. but, I am not alone. I am just one voice of milions of voices

There are many different ways people are more similar or more different.
Why choose a linguistic grouping over anything else?


Only most of the others are saying completely different things.

True


I agree and so, I speak about heritage in general not only about linguistic, religious, spiritual, cultural, blood/genetic grouping, etc, etc. If you take any of those factors separately you falling in vulgarization of subject.

It is right of all of us to have a choice, to choose even principle of grouping. But, no matter which principle one uses for grouping, one can’t disregard all other factors that are elements of personality (heritage).


No, I`m not that unique

Congratulations! You have undone your own argument.

This Poland – EU situation inspired me to remind on words of great Scottish essayist Thomas Carlyle...

``And now if a whole nation fell into that? ... infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for.``

The ruling party, Law and Justice (pis), must have known that its opposition would only entrench its image as backward, stupid and intolerant. Whatever the merits of re-energizing public debate on abortion and euthanasia, surely Poland's concerns could have been framed more diplomatically, by means offering a better chance of success. So why did pis decide to fight this losing battle?

The answer is simple - the battle was not fought for the benefit of the EU, but rather to please the domestic audience. The EU is a favorite villain of the downtrodden countryside - a key pis constituency - which sees it as the latest in a series of foreign powers looking to engulf Poland and erase its culture. The Kaczyńskis can now claim to have stood up to the EU on a major cultural issue.

pis's pandering may win them the upcoming elections,but when its leaders return to Brussels, any remaining credibility they had held among EU politicians will be lost. Poland has played the role of stubborn outcast for so long, it is beginning to be ignored. Last week, the Council of Europe approved the establishment of an anti-death-penalty day despite Poland's opposition.

This does not bode well for Poland's negotiating power in the EU. When pis is called upon to defend Poland's interests, it will likely prove impotent - a lame duck. And in the countryside, a lame duck usually faces execution sooner or later, sooner I prey.

Moskiewski dziennik nazywa szefa polskiego rządu "mistrzem politycznej rozgrywki". "Jarosław Kaczyński nie ma prawa jazdy, jednak wie, jak utrzymać się za kierownicą Polski" - konstatuje "Niezawisimaja Gazieta".

Undone? No. On the contrary! My agrumentation is stronger.

Your argument doesn't stop, but your argument is weak.


All different, for example:
Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, for example.
Native speakers of Slavonic languages do not have a common genetic origin.

I rest my case.