Poland turning into a religious state?

I'm not saying that teaching religion should be forbidden, but that those religion classes should not aim at only one way of thinking.

Then make Catholic history/Bible teachings an elective : optional class

Why not ? :)

Because then someone would make the arguement that it's profiling. Just like here in the states. Some parents were upset about the words: "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, so they wanted it banned in school. Their solution: make it optional.

Those same parents argued that their children would be made fun of for being different. What those parents don't understand is that because of them they would be made fun of. Nobody gave a damn until they started to b*tch about it.

With one solution you get another problem. Just leave things the way they have worked before you make more problems for yourself.

While I think electives would be the best bet, others would just argue with me about it. It's a never ending debate. Nobody can win.

That's the point : in the article, they are discussing about making religion a compulsory A-Level subjet, so they are thinking of changing the system, then they are going to make problems ;)

Sorry, this entire time I thought you were agreeing with changing the system.

:]

- What do you specifically mean by my alleged 'stirring'? So the Polish Church just wants to have some great power, but doesn't have it, is that what you mean? Have you got any proof of this alleged big appetite of the Church? So according to you the Church had lots of power during communism? How would you then explain the persecution of the Church, including imprisoning and killing of priests, its being controlled by the communist authorities to the extent that they had their say in who should be made an archbishop, etc.?

You know, miranda, I'm not surprised you're defending Polson, as you and him appear to be kindred souls: you both repeat cliches you've unconsciously have picked from the media hacks - empty cliches, not supported by any hard evidence.
:)

Puzz, i don't think Miranda is going to answer immediately cause she's off... ;)



She wasn't defending me, but just telling the truth. Don't say that the Church is not powerful in Poland. Don't say that the politicians are not almost all Christians and very influenced by the Church. Facts are facts.

- Are you implying I've ever said the Polish Church isn't powerful? When, where?

But you're saying that the Polish Church is powerful, aren't you? If so, then you must know some facts on which you base your opinion. What are those facts? Can you give them?
:)

Yeah, Mr the President is a big friend of Father Rydzyk...
Poland is 90% Christian.
One of Tusk's first visit is Vatican...

:)

Poland's practising Catholics is more like 70%, while even Israels President Moshe Katsav has visited the Vatican. Does not necesseraly mean that the president is a true catholic whatsoever. Tusk is trying to appease to the "majoriy" of Poles and traditional Vatican visits.

- Really? What do you mean by 'friend'? E.g. what do they do together?

So if President of a given country befriends a priest this means that the church the priest belongs to is necessarily powerful in the country?



- How would the visit be evidence of the power of the Church in Poland? Well, the first - if I'm right on this - visit by Tusk was to Lithuania. Is it evidence of the power of Lithuania in Poland? :)



- Is this also hard evidence of the Church's power? Why?
:)

...hmm...you mean church goers ?... :)



I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's one of the first visit, so like a "priority"...



Actually, he is.

- Good point, Filios.
:)

Rydzyk supported the Kaczyńskis.



If the priest helps him to become president of his country, then yeah, i guess he has some power...



Nuclear plants, isn't it ?... Germany, the USA, Russia are more important for a "first visit" than Vatican.



Hehe, that means that almost everybody can be influenced by the Church, particularly regular church goers.

It's these 3 reasons altogether that proves that the Church is still powerful in Poland :)

Well, Polsonek, you're a nice intelligent dude, but you've got to question both what you get from others and your own convictions. Always ask yourself: 'And what if this isn't true?' in regard to other peoples' statements and your own thoughts. And learn as many facts as possible. Then you'll be a really bright guy.
:)

:)



Hmm...don't know if you mean it, but thanks anyway ;)



I'm not that influenced. I have my own critical point of view about what people says, and i decide by myself what i can trust and what i can't.



Lot of work left :)

- What does it have to do with the power of Church in Poland? Do you mean that FATHER Rydzyk (that's his title for you - Father Rydzyk) is the Church? Besides, Father Rydzyk is disliked by many Catholics; he is in a sense on the margin of the Polish Church, not in its centre.

During the recent elections, Radio Maryja and Nasz Dziennik (two - very good, actually - media connected with Father Rydzyk) supported PiS, but PiS lost.... Would you say the Polish Church isn't powerful any more? Or would you argue that PO won because Father Rydzyk-the Church supported them, not PiS?
:)

---

Great Heavens, it's nearly 2 am, and I've got to get up at 6 am and write. Bye, Polsonek.
:)

That's a chance, but he helped Lech anyway. He influenced many people to vote for Lech. And priests in the Church gave political point of views too (the same, Lech), which is, to me, unbelievable...



I think Polish people wanted to get rid of the "terrible twins". And people might be disappointed to know that Rydzyk supported him too. :)



3 AM here, dobranoc Puzz, have a nice short night :)

So what was wrong with religion classes being taught by priests and nuns in afternoons and evening?

They taught in churches and parish halls. That was happening for decades even though according to Polish law at the time it wasn't even legal. Polish catholicism survived after all.

I quoted you, so that should be enough.
the church has a lot of power and wants more. I am not emotional about the topic. I see it as the struggle for more influence in every aspect of life as a result. I n order to gain power one needs to influence the followers. So there are a lot of conservative church followers in Poland - especially the oler generation, who is mostly retired and has of feelingof powerlessness, so the church provides some relief to their frustrations.
where did I say that. I was trying to say that the church had a different role uring the communism - mainly helping people to survive the difficult times. It must have been inflitrated with some commies, otherwise it would have been crushed just like in the USSR.
see above
I am not - we have similar views
maybe we are the same Zodiac sign:)
it may appear that way, but I have to admit that I am just to lazy to come up with the arguments. I have expressed my desire to have church separated from the state, because state should be looking after bussiness, external/internal affairs, social problems with the help of civil laws.
What I question in Catholic church is how some people go to church every Sunday and still hate their neighbours?
I know that Catholic church has done a lot of good , but I contribute that mainly to the good will of the believers not to the church administration.
Catholic church is a well designed insitution which was built over the hunreds of years. Vatican is an independent country and just like any country, it has a government structure to deal with the affairs inside and outside of the church. For me it is about money and influance and if you follow the Cathilic church history - there were not following their own canon laws many times. Catholic church doesn't allow women priests, unlike other denominations. Priest cannot marry, because the church wealth would have to support their families and it would be in anger to be dispersed.
That is just a little portion of what I have to say about this topic.

Puzz,
I think this link clearly describes what I meant:)
URL

But don't you think that atheists actually do have beliefs?

nothing goes unnoticed on this forum.
depends what beliefs you are talking about.

:)

I wasn't picking on words Miranda. I think I should explain what I had in mind.

Basically the separation of church and state means that no clergy men are allowed to participate in countries politics. This definitely is the case in Poland. There are no clergy men in polish parliament and the official stance of polish Catholic Church is that they don't interfere in countries politics. Unfortunately every now and then we do hear about some priest telling people on whom they should vote but those are just some incidents - exceptions that just reaffirm the rule.

In France however it's not only priests that should not partake in politics but it seems that religious people on the whole also should not do it. Personally, taking into consideration it's history and current rate of "believers" I'm not surprised at all but I do see it as a kind of discrimination. Christians are allowed to participate in politics as long as they don't think like Christians. Can you believe it?

Lets just say that starting from today atheists in Poland would only be allowed to partake in politics as long as they don't think like atheists? What do you think would be the reaction of other Europeans, especially the westerners? I think that there would be a big uproar. Why it isn't the other way around? Why is it acceptable to forbid Christians to think liker Christians but it's not acceptable to forbid atheists to think like atheists?

My conclusion:

The separation of church and state is very good, but I don’t think that it means that in a country where over 90% of people are catholic it’s politicians should be force to think like atheists. If the people choose religious people to run their country than the people have spoken. Isn’t it what democracy is all about?

PS: Going back to the original topic – I think that it is good like it is now and there’s no need for a change. People are allowed to believe and not to believe in whatever they want. Religious classes are not obligatory. I don’t see the point in changing it.

I think that in smaller towns priest, maybe even indirectly influnce the voters in election on much greater degree than we think.
I used France as an example and I agree with you that every country should solve their governemt issues in the best suitable to the situation way.
I was speaking from my point of view. I am able to separate my own religious beliefs form rational thinking. I, however can see how difficult that might be for other people.
good question, however who knows how many so called Catholics in Poland are real believers? There seem to be a lot of pressure when it comes to remaining a member of the Catholic church and so liitle room for the individual Catholic be critical of his own Church.

I find society in Poland very tolerant and catholic influence does not have a very negative impact.(it creates some incovenience,a sense of control only).

I think that in smaller towns priest, maybe even inirectly influnce the voters in election on much greater level than we think. [/quote]

This is voters' choice to trust the priest.Who should influence them in your opinion?
Did any priest say ''vote Kaczynski,he is the man of God''?




Who protests against catholic church inside Poland?

that is precisely what I view as wrong.
nobody
I used the word "indirectly", so if the priest criticizes one political party, the voters would unerstand that oposition coul be their choice
nobody openly. I listen to Polish people talking about the Church at home and they are pretty critical about it.

Well, having been living in a small town in Poland basically all my life, I think the church influences the voter in a much smaller scale than we think, but I respect your opinion.



If you can, than I think that you don’t believe in them in the first place. Can an atheist separate his believes from his believes? :) I don't think so.



I'm sure that there are a lot of Catholics that are Catholics only in name. But than again, catholic doesn't mean saint. :)

As for the pressure, I never witnessed it myself( well when I was a young punk rocker my grandma always used to moan that I don't go to the church and that I will surely burn in hell, but I guess that it’s juts the way the grandmas are;) ) . More over, my best friends from childhood times were atheists (two brothers) and one guy was a Jehovah Witness and they never witnessed any problems because they were not Catholics.

Nobody influences their vote in the West?



I would prefer the priests openly critisizing one party than waiting to be fed by every party.



I saw polish people praying on their knees in churches and having photos of Pope in their homes.