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Poland: we have an interesting history.


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posts: 74
 
plk123
  Jan 2, 08, 18:28  #31

vodka wrote:
no I have superiority complex, and I believe we are nation chosen by God :)

you're also off your rocker.. now go check the facts and then come back and fix your post. haha


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vodka
Edited by: vodka  Jan 2, 08, 18:35  #32

plk123 wrote:
you're also off your rocker.. now go check the facts and then come back and fix your post. haha


kluszyn

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Kłuszynem

Samosierra

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Somosierrą

or maybe precise where I have done mistakes ... (I will check tomorow) good night and good luck


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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 2, 08, 18:41  #33

vodka wrote:
maybe some American Poles who read it will tell their children about ancient ;) Poles

exactly :)

We don`t wish to see that some American Poles speaks to their children about ancient American history when Polish history is much more interesting. After all, there is no ancient American history, except of course ancient native american history

With same problem is faced Serbian diaspora. ;)


good night


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plk123
  Jan 2, 08, 18:55  #34

vodka, poland is not the reason for russian collapse.. Brzezinski and al qaeda? come on now.. :D :D :D


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z_darius
  Jan 3, 08, 00:18  #35

972 BAttle of Cedynia ( a Slavic settlement)

Mieszko I defeated margrave Hodo.
After WW2 Cedynia returned to Poland.



1015 Battle of Krosno Odrzanskie
Forces of the German Emperor Henry II defeated by Chrobry's son Mieszko. Chrobry was a prince at the time, later to become the frst Polish king

1015 Battle of Budziszyn
Polish forces lead by Chrobry slaughter German army lead by Henry II.




1109 Defense of Glogow
Successful defense of the City by Polish forces against joined Germa and Czech forces, despite the fact that Germans used human shields (Polish hostages).



Battle of Grunwald 1410
One of the greatest battles of the Middle Ages.
Polis-Lithuanian Union won over Teutonic Knights and their Western European mercenaries.

Battle of Koronow 1410
2000 Poles against 4000 Teutonic knights and.
Casualties: 1000 Germans killed. "Insignificant" number of Poles killed.

Battle of Wilkomierz 1435
Polish-Lithuanian forces defeat Teutonic knights who were helped by Russians

Thirteen Year War 1454-1466
Final stages of the conflict between Teutonic Knights and Poland. Poland victorious. The beginning of Polan'd golden age.



Kazimierz Pułaski (Casimir Pulaski) - Father of the American Cavalry


Battle of Westerplatte (Poles were defeated):

Germans forces:

approx 3400 soldiers
Battleship Schleswig-Holstein
Two torpedo boats (T-963 and Von der Groeben)
Several heavy armoured cars
About 65 artillery pieces
Numerous mortars
Over 150 machine guns and several flamethrowers.

40 Junkers and 87 dive bombers
Seven other aircraft

Polish forces

182 soldiers
Three artillery pieces
Four Stokes 81 mm wz. 31 mortars
41 machine guns, including 16 heavy machine guns.

Aftermath:
The battle lasted 7 days.
Germans: est. 200 to 400 killed
Poles: 15-20 killed and 53 wounded


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Ozi Dan
  Jan 3, 08, 00:59  #36

z_darius wrote:
z_darius


Nice piece mate. I also think it's important we dont forget that a lot of achievements were made in conjunction with Poland's Lithuanian partners. Wiwat to them.

I think it would be a nice and inclusive gesture to cite some of the battles where Polish Jews made a valuable contribution. I'm thinking of their contributions toward the defence of Warsaw during the Kosciuszko Insurrections (to name one). Wiwat to them too.

To that list we could add the battle of Orsza (early 16C). Another fine example of Polish military prowess over the Muscovites.

I'll have to pull out the old Davies, Lukowski and Zamoyski books to see if I can add any more.

Crow wrote:
We don`t wish to see that some American Poles speaks to their children about ancient American history when Polish history is much more interesting.


Why not? I will certainly be exposing my son to Australian history as well as Polish history.

Cheers Dan


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vodka
Edited by: vodka  Jan 3, 08, 02:01  #37

Ozi Dan wrote:
I think it would be a nice and inclusive gesture to cite some of the battles where Polish Jews made a valuable contribution. I'm thinking of their contributions toward the defence of Warsaw during the Kosciuszko Insurrections (to name one). Wiwat to them too.


As to Poles and Jews some people say that we have syndrome of betrayed lovers. ;) And Jews talk only about bad Poles and Poles only about bad Jews, both sides claim that there were no mixes, no asimilation and that other side was traitor, but if you really want to hear sth positive about contribution made by Polish Jews into our history. Some Jews participated in our up-rises, some helped us in war against Soviets in 1920 (as volountiers in Pilsudskis Legions) and some were true Polish patriots. The bigest spread of "Love between Jews and Poles" occured in 1860-1862 (January up-rise) when Poland was occupated by Russia ,Austria and Germany. Jews and Poles wanted to be treated equal (Occupators used differences between Poles and Jews to make us weaker as whole) and decided to fight agains Russians, action and cooperation brought asimilation (some Polish and Jewish fractions really wanted it) and we had a lot of beautiful love affairs between Jews and Poles. Unfortunately Russians won. Genraly January up-rising was very characteristic : peasants maried nobels, Jews Poles and so on. Very interesting chapter in our history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Uprising

;)

love


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omniba [Guest]
Edited by: omniba  Jan 3, 08, 02:33  #38

vodka wrote:
As to Poles and Jews some people say that we have syndrome of betrayed lovers.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your whole paragraph is an excellent analysis. Thanks. Maybe it won't be a bad year after all.

What on earth has that photo to do with anything?

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vodka
Edited by: vodka  Jan 3, 08, 03:02  #39

omniba wrote:
What on earth has that photo to do with anything?


forbidden Love ;)

What I want to add Up-rising started in 1863 but whole process in our society started in 1860.
omniba wrote:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your whole paragraph is an excellent analysis. Thanks. Maybe it won't be a bad year after all.

thanks
later I will add some links to interesting articles about this issue :)

plk123 wrote:
vodka, poland is not the reason for russian collapse.. Brzezinski and al qaeda? come on now.. :D :D :D


one of the reasons :) but I think there is separate thread about Brzezinski


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omniba [Guest]
  Jan 3, 08, 05:51  #40

vodka wrote:
forbidden Love ;)

Clever! Hadn't thought of that! :)

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isisores
  Jan 3, 08, 06:53  #41

isthatu wrote:
the Ottomans "christian" warriors

actually they were not totally christian. ottomans were taking the healtiest sons of non-muslim families (if a family has only one son they were not taking him) and bring to istanbul. then they were giving them education about fighting, science and religion etc. clever and talented ones were going to be important men in empire management, strong ones to special jenissary units and others to other jobs in the palace. even there were ones between them who managed ottoman empire by being more effective than the ruler. but they were brought up as muslims since they were taken from their families so not christian warriors (of course we can't know how they feel inside, at least outer part muslim). it's said that they were shaving their heads but leaving some long hair on top, to make their heads carry easier to their graves if it cuts off from the body in the war :p


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isthatu
  Jan 3, 08, 07:24  #42

thats why I " " the word. :)


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slick77
Edited by: slick77  Jan 3, 08, 12:58  #43

vodka wrote:
Very interesting chapter in our history.


Not to me.

1. Thousands of people were forced to settle in Siberia, killed or injured.
2. Poland lost the rest of remaining autonomy within Russian Empire.
3. The country was destroyed and robbed by the Russian forces.
4. Nation's elite was killed or forced to immigrate.

Etc.

All of the above apply to virtually each Polish uprising or insurrection.

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lesser
Edited by: lesser  Jan 3, 08, 18:26  #44

slick77 wrote:
Not to me.


According to universal rules of propaganda:

- If you want winner mentality to be achieved then remind to the average people only victories.

- If you wish bad to them then spread defeatism


Where do you want to stand?


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slick77
  Jan 3, 08, 18:38  #45

lesser wrote:
universal rules of propaganda

lesser wrote:
Where do you want to stand?


I would rather stick to the facts instead of myths and propaganda.

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lesser
  Jan 4, 08, 03:29  #46

slick77 wrote:
I would rather stick to the facts instead of myths and propaganda.


If so, you need to include also numerous successes to your list.


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Tran Anh
Edited by: Tran Anh  Jan 4, 08, 07:18  #47

lesser wrote:
If so, you need to include also numerous successes to your list.


A lot of defeats (or "moral" victories) too!

Anyway, I believe that a Pole who knows more about Kirchom or Kluszyn than Lutosławski or Jozef Korzeniowki would never understand the essense of the 'interestingness' of his country's history (and it is not only about the 'cultural' thing!)


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Jan 4, 08, 09:02  #48

Jaunary up-rising and October uprisng occured partly because Russians wanted to use Poles in their wars. Poles prefered to die in war against Russians than strenghten them. I think it should be noticed as well.


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southern
  Jan 4, 08, 09:04  #49

z_darius wrote:
Battle of Grunwald 1410


It is widely known as the battle of Tannenberg as the Germans called it to take revenge in 1914.One of the Teuton knights who fell in this battle was called Hindenburg.

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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 4, 08, 13:18  #50

Lukasz wrote:
Jaunary up-rising and October uprisng occured partly because Russians wanted to use Poles in their wars. Poles prefered to die in war against Russians than strenghten them. I think it should be noticed as well.

How is possible that Russians (precisely- Russian elite) that greatly mistake in central Europe?! Why they oppressed Poles? Why wanted to control Poland instead to consider Poles as partners?

When started problems between Poles and Russians and who is responsible? Anyone?


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southern
Edited by: southern  Jan 4, 08, 14:10  #51

Crow wrote:
How is possible that Russians (precisely- Russian elite) that greatly mistake in central Europe?! Why they oppressed Poles? Why wanted to control Poland instead to consider Poles as partners?


The Russians had no real intention to suppress Poles.Occupation of part of polish land was meant for security reasons in order to prevent attack of Germans.

Crow wrote:
When started problems between Poles and Russians and who is responsible? Anyone?


Basically they started in 15th centrury when the Russians tried to become independant and keep the orthodox tradition while Poles were inspired by Popes to crusades to the East.Lithuanians became catholics by polish influence but Russians were already orthodox and refused to change.
Of course the real crusaders were a little more west with the appearance of Teuton knights who tried to expand german territory to Baltics and former Poland.
So in 1410 Russians,Poles,Czechs and Lithuanians having realized the threat which Germans represented allied and crushed the Teuton knights in the famous battle of Tannenberg which Germans have never forgotten.

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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Jan 4, 08, 15:14  #52

southern wrote:
So in 1410 Russians,Poles,Czechs and Lithuanians


Russians ? no way ! only about 400 Russians particpated in this battle, Lithuenians retreated at the begining, there were some Czech soldiers of fortune (on both sides), but generaly this battle was between Poles and Germans


southern wrote:
Basically they started in 15th centrury when the Russians tried to become independant and keep the orthodox tradition while Poles were inspired by Popes to crusades to the East.


Russians tshar came to Krakow and asked our King for help, he wasnt interested so Tshar converted into catholic and was looking for support, finaly he found it (some nobels form north east of RP) and Poles helped him to take moscov and throne , later it changed in war between Russians na Poles. and we had taken Moscov again. there is better description there (Russians participate in it)
Generaly most of Russians wanted to have the same laws as Poles and it was very close Russia would be another Lithuenia in our Common Wealth (BTW independent Lithuenians celebrate togheter with us 3rd may constitution so we were ok )

http://www.polishforums.com/poland_russia_never_ending_story-34_11550_ 20.html

some Polish historicians claim that union with Lithueanians was mistake because mainly they provoked conflicts with Russia instead of that we could "finish" Germans they were on knees ... and continue our "come back" on west.


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Jan 4, 08, 15:52  #53

Generaly reason of our strenghtness in XVI ventury (we had the bigest military power in Europe) came from our model, Ukrainians Lithuenians wanted to join us because our citizens had more laws so Russians wated the same "if Polish lords give us more laws than our ... so we should support them" ... it can be compared to what USA have been doing in last century (to times of Iraq)


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southern
Edited by: southern  Jan 4, 08, 15:52  #54

Lukasz wrote:
ussians ? no way ! only about 400 Russians particpated in this battle


The Russians were the ones who fought toucher than everyone.They caused the admiration of the Teuton knights due to their bravery.They managed to hold the center of the allies when the german attack created danger of collapse.The Lithuanians run away when the Teutons attacked but came back after personal interference of polish king.

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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Jan 4, 08, 15:57  #55

southern wrote:
The Russians were the ones who fought toucher than everyone.


yes, when we look on number of their soldiers they did sth but 400 is 400 and they were form Smolensk which was part of Lithuenia ... troops form Russian country were in Russia...

southern wrote:
The Lithuanians run away when the Teutons attacked but came back after personal interference of polish king.


some came back but some retreated to Lithuenia (?!?) and in their way home were tellin stories about great defeat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald

Russia and the Soviet Union

Due to the participation of the Smolensk regiment in the battle, Russians consider the battle to be a Polish-Lithuanian-Russian coalition against invading Germans, ignoring the fact that Smolensk at that time was a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The banner from Starodub took part in the battle. This town is now part of the Bryansk region in Russia.


Germans had never forgoten about this defeat, and they claim that in 1914 they had taken revange on "slavs"

In Germany the battle was known as the Battle of Tannenberg. In 1914 yet another Battle of Tannenberg took place between Germany and Russia, ending with a Russian defeat. In German propaganda during the WWI / WWII period the 1914 battle was put forth as a revenge for the Polish - Lithuanian victory 504 years earlier, and the battle itself was purposefully named to suit this agenda.



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southern
Edited by: southern  Jan 4, 08, 16:13  #56

Lukasz wrote:
In Germany the battle was known as the Battle of Tannenberg. In 1914 yet another Battle of Tannenberg took place between Germany and Russia, ending with a Russian defeat. In German propaganda during the WWI / WWII period the 1914 battle was put forth as a revenge for the Polish - Lithuanian victory 504 years earlier, and the battle itself was purposefully named to suit this agenda.


While the second battle of Tannenberg(this of 1914) took in reality place in Glogau,near Tannenberg.The Germans called it deliberately battle of Tannenberg to take revenge in the same ground of their defeat.
t was a matter of honour for Hindenburg whose remote relative had died in the battle of 1410.

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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Jan 4, 08, 20:59  #57

slick77 wrote:
slick77

I understand your message (answer to so many posts in this and other topics sugesting sth for us), we understand that we are not super power. Majority of Poles understand it and what is important or PM Tusk understands it. EU is club of lost super powers/empires, that is why it has been established.


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Jan 4, 08, 21:46  #58

Maybe we need to say sth about how we behaved when we had "super power". What kind of system we had. It is very important we had created our commonwealth using positive power.

rep

I think the most popular source on this forum Wikipedia ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth

"The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, official Rzeczpospolita Korony Polskiej i Wielkiego Księstwa Litewskiego [1], also known as the First Polish Republic or Republic (Commonwealth) of the Two (Both) Nations (Peoples), (Polish: Pierwsza Rzeczpospolita or Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów; Lithuanian: Abiejų tautų respublika) or as the "First Republic," was one of the largest and most populous[2] countries in 17th century Europe. Its political structure — that of a semi-federal, semi-confederal aristocratic republic"

"The Commonwealth was an extension of the Polish-Lithuanian Union, a personal union between those two states that had existed from 1386 (see Union of Krewo). The Commonwealth's political system, often called the Noble's democracy or Golden Freedom, was characterized by the sovereign's power being reduced by laws and the legislature (Sejm) controlled by the nobility (szlachta). This system was a precursor of the modern concepts of broader democracy and constitutional monarchy"

"Shortly before its demise, the Commonwealth adopted the world's second-oldest codified national constitution in modern history."


"The foundation of the Commonwealth's political system, the "Golden Liberty" (Polish: Zlota Wolność, a term used from 1573), included:
free election of the king by all nobles wishing to participate;
Sejm, the Commonwealth parliament which the king was required to hold every two years;
pacta conventa (Latin), "agreed-to agreements" negotiated with the king-elect, including a bill of rights, binding on the king, derived from the earlier King Henry's Articles;
rokosz (insurrection), the right of szlachta to form a legal rebellion against a king who violated their guaranteed freedoms;
liberum veto (Latin), the right of an individual Sejm deputy to oppose a decision by the majority in a Sejm session; the voicing of such a "free veto" nullified all the legislation that had been passed at that session; during the crisis of the second half of the 17th century, Polish nobles could also use the liberum veto in provincial sejmiks;
konfederacja (from the Latin confederatio), the right to form an organization to force through a common political aim."

"Golden Liberty created a state that was unusual for its time, although somewhat similar political systems existed in the contemporary city-states like the Republic of Venice. (interestingly both states were styled the "Most Serene Republic.") At a time when most European countries were headed toward centralization, absolute monarchy and religious and dynastic warfare, the Commonwealth experimented with decentralization, confederation and federation, democracy, religious tolerance and even pacifism. Since the Sejm usually vetoed a monarch's plans for war, this constitutes a notable argument for the democratic peace theory"

it was in XVI century !!

"democracy, since all the szlachta were equal in rights and privileges, and the Sejm could veto the king on important matters, including legislation (the adoption of new laws), foreign affairs, declaration of war, and taxation (changes of existing taxes or the levying of new ones). Also, the 10% of Commonwealth population who enjoyed those political rights (the szlachta) was a substantially larger percentage than in any other European country; note that in 1831 in France only about 1% of the population had the right to vote, and in 1867 in the United Kingdom, only about 3%; "





Religions

sss

Green are orthodox (other names are simlar to english)

we have to say sth about arians (do not connect to WWII) Polish pacifists (?!?) in XVI century ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_brethren

"The movement started around 1562 and ended with the expulsion of Arians from Poland in 1658. The Brethren never participated in the Sandomierz Agreement between different Polish Protestants. The Polish Brethren advocated the separation of church and state and taught the equality and brotherhood of all people; they opposed social privileges based on religious affiliation, and their adherents refused military service (they were known for carrying wooden swords instead of real almost obligatory szablas) and declined political office. They did not believe in private property, were against capital punishment, and did not believe in the traditional Christian doctrines of Hell or the Trinity."


And here is the answer how we ended with 95% of Catholics at the end ;)

" The Deluge in which protestant Sweden invaded Poland, since they (as almost all non-Catholics) were commonly seen as Swedish collaborators. This expulsion is sometimes taken as the beginning of decline of famous Polish religious freedom, although the decline started earlier and ended later: the last non-Catholic deputy was removed from parliament in the beginning of the 18th century. Most of Polish Brethren moved to the Netherlands, where they greatly influenced European opinion, becoming precursors to Enlightenment. Through their connection to Enlightenment thinkers, their ideas also influenced the Founding Fathers of the United States."

I've just noticed some analogies to other religous groups in our history ... hmmmm... maybe we should think about it.


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omniba [Guest]
  Jan 5, 08, 06:58  #59

Lukasz wrote:
liberum veto (Latin), the right of an individual Sejm deputy to oppose a decision by the majority in a Sejm session

…and surely this is the point where something went wrong with an otherwise very modern system: the worm in a perfect apple. Had it not been for the Liberum Veto Polish history would have probably been totally different and much happier, don’t you think?

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z_darius
Edited by: z_darius  Jan 5, 08, 10:01  #60

omniba wrote:
Had it not been for the Liberum Veto Polish history would have probably been totally different

Yes. It is an obvious fact, it is taught in Polish schools. At least it was when I lived there.

Liberum Veto lead to Poland's effective self-anihilation. It was probably the biggest mistake in Polish politics (other than not killing off all Teutons, or helping Vienna so soon)


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