Poles in Iraq. What's the point?

Neocon smears, as far as I am aware no evidence of this has been provided. The only link was the Oil for Food programme.

Different resolutions for different things. The ones I wrote about were the ones required which would have provided a "mandate" for the war that the USA didn't have, as such, the war is "illegal".

I am sure many have been, a lot more will come out of Gitmo I'm sure.

I saw a report about construction of a bridge in Baghdad. An Iraqi engineer estimates that for repairs the necessary amount is 200,000 $ (two hundred thousand dollars) and that for the use of machinery because the workforce and materials are cheap. The job was received by an intermediary firm owned by Dick Cheney for the price of 54,000,000 $ (fifty four million dollars). That's how Bush is sucking money of the American taxpayers and filling the pockets of himself and his friends. He is a far greater swindler then Kofi Anan.

Govna su uvijek govna, samo neka smrde manje ili više.

A "mandate" from the UN has never to my knowledge been required to go to war. To have the UN's help or to declare a particular action a UN action, a UN mandate is required. The UN has never had sovereignty over any nation; it simply exists to make it easier to allow member nations to speak as one and enforce the will of the many if need be. So again, what exactly constitutes an "illegal" war? and further, you also said that any acts done by members of various countries military (perhaps you mean me) were therefore also "illegal". Guess we'll start tearing down those bridges and hospitals we built, then... Actually I feel there are wars, and then there are acts that take place during wars that are illegal esp. if done by nations who signed on to the Geneva conventions or the international laws of war-both of which are self-regulated. Neither of the above define what constitutes justification for GOING to war, only what constitutes legal methods of carrying one out.

As for your assumptions about what is obviously happening at Gitmo, I think you will be sadly disappointed. Even the news cameras don't go there anymore, as the only people being abused are the guards as everyone is so afraid of offending any of the inmates that they are actually getting fat, due to being fed and pampered heavily. You misread my previous post. I find it hard to believe that people would be put through such obviously illegal things as they are claiming, and live to tell about it. It is much easier to kill than to torture. Unless, you redefine the word torture, to include playing bad music, or keeping the lights on all night...(believe it or not those are some of the things currently being called torture-I don't know. I personally am used to the medieval definition of torture, not the modern one where even playing music a prisoner does not like is called torture). Think about it. These people are claiming they were tortured, in prisons that "don't exist" taken there on secret flights, which only THEY know the purpose for, by people who "don't exist" but are readily identifiable somehow to the supposed victims as "U.S. CIA"...so if they were REALLY in these places unbeknownsts to anyone, I think the BS is getting deep when they claim they simply got out to freely tell their tale. If such secret places really exist and unsavory people in the employ of the U.S. government (or ANY government for that matter) are doing horrible things to people...well, one does not do horrible things to people in hidden locations that "nobody knows about" then let them go, to say what they wish in front of television cameras. It simply slips beyond the realm of believability.

Interesting that you say all these things about Kofi Anan are "neocon smears" yet readily believe Americans you have never met are readily doing the most awful things imaginable (then concede that, well just the ONE thing was true...). They are reported on the same television set. You readily believe something about some unsubstantiatable story about a bridge in Baghdad you've never seen, but then disbelieve things supporting the opposing side? Why believe one if you do not believe the other? The oil for food scandal is not enough? How many women does one need to rape to be called a rapist, how many illegal deals behind the back of an organization one supposedly chairs, before one is considered crooked? How many times does one have to steal, before he is considered a thief? At least America's dirty laundry gets aired, and people imprisoned when they err.
By the by, ALL of the resolutions were supposedly backed by a promise of force. A UN "mandate" is IMHO a fictitious item that does not exist in the real sense of the word. If a member wants a resolution saying "go to war" that is all a mandate is, however such a thing assumes any of the given members of the UN consider themselves and their sovereignty subject to it.
None do.

More, it is like a club, in the old sense of the word. People discuss, and sometimes they let in new members, sometimes not. If something seems advantageous to all, all work as one. Ideally. It is not some sort of global super-government, at least, not yet. It was created to keep an open channel between governments on the verge of annihilating each other some decades ago.
Do I have any delusions about Iraq always being a wonderful place? no, I do not. I would, however, like to have at least ONE friendly nation in the area, considering the economy of the entire planet revolves around oil, and while the U.S. doesn't use Iraqi oil, I sure don't want Putin and Ahmadinejad controlling it.
I also have not heard the above allegations of Iraqi oil being sold or given to Exxon and Mobil etc. from any reputable sources. I could just pass it off as another "smear" but mostly, I know it isn't coming HERE. So who is getting it?Regardless, none of this has anything to do with Poland's participation in the war. I can't comment on regular Polish army as I've not seen them, but the troops we worked with were absolute professionals, if a bit more ruthless than some of our own. Our troops are greatly restricted in how we can carry out fighting, something other countries including Poland, apparently realize is silly. Our troops are not allowed, for instance, to fire on someone, unless we think we see a weapon, we think the person with the weapon is a direct threat to us (e.g. preparing to FIRE the weapon at us) then whoever is in charge of us AGREES that the person is a threat and then authorizes us to open fire... Unless of course the individual(s) are actually firing at us, which is different entirely.
So...I KNOW all the stories about genocides and massacres etc etc being the rule...are a load of CR@P.

I would give the Persians, not one but 30 nuclear bombs, just for the sake of restoring some balance in this World.



And we saw the fruits of this USA mission in the former Yugoslavia, where the US, through NATO, attacked a sovereign state that threatened neither the United States nor its own neighbors. In Yugoslavia, USA abandoned the claim it once had to the moral high ground. The result of the illegal and immoral USA intervention in the Balkans speaks for itself: US troops will occupy the Balkans for the foreseeable future. No peace has been attained, merely the cessation of hostilities and a permanent dependency on US foreign aid.

The further expansion of NATO is in reality a cover for increased US interventionism in Europe and beyond. It will be a conduit for more unconstitutional US foreign aid and US interference in the internal politics of member nations, especially the new members from the former East.

The US are supposed to be part of the UN and act within it.

USA tearing down hospitals and bridges ? Who bombed these in the first place ?

Its a widely accepted that the rendition flights are used by the US to carry out torture in countries like Morocco and Egypt. Scotland have now stopped them using their airports for these.

Was Oil for food not brought about by the US backed sanctions?

I dont know what point you are making, Kofi is a serial rapist ? When Iraq and rape are
mentioned I think of Haditha.

I would say I have a balanced view ( but then I would ). Why would you believe one but not the other?

The USA do, its called Israel.

I have no doubt the US army is, for the most part professional, but what about all the "private security contractors".

Hello, to be honest I was not arguing about the Iranian nuclear program, but since you mention it, my biggest concern about their program, is unlike the US or Russia or various other countries that have the bomb, Iran has publicly made statements that they intend to use them when they have achieved that goal in what amounts to a religiously ordained strike against Israel first then the rest of the Infidels within reach (including, now, Poland). America can't do much about it these days, as we are politically hogtied by people who believe everything we do is for some nefarious and evil purpose. Iran will get them if they don't already have them, and I don't think we can count on Israel to do the world's dirty work this time as they did against Iraq's original bomb program. Hopefully Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollahs are bluffing but I doubt it.

No doubt when the first ones fall on Jerusalem, people who hate all things American (and by association all of our friends) will cheer. Then when the targets shift to other "Infidel" nations such as Poland, they will blame Americans for it, either for not doing enough, or will say we caused it somehow. So while it's another thread in its entirety, all we can do is offer missile defense. I would say, take it...
More importantly my comments were about the oil monopoly being sought by Russia and Iran. Oil, like it or not, is the life blood of the world's modern economy, just as wars 200 years ago were fought over sugarcane plantations or spices. If allowed this controlling interest, Moscow and Tehran (wonder who would be pulling whose strings) would easily for all intents, enslave the European continent. Sure, your life might not change much, but guaranteed not much would happen in Europe that Russia disagreed with....
My only comment with regard to the Balkans, is I and many others in the US armed forces at the time, mostly agree with you. Many felt the whole idea was wrong, so Pres. Clinton ordered US troops under UN control, otherwise he would have had to answer to congress, which he knew he would not win. Then the UN carried out its wishes, using American troops. It's been years and I still have a bad taste from it all. I know the entire planet supposedly loved Pres. Clinton, but truth be told he was as bad or worse than who we have now, but he had the media on his side.

Skotja, you are obviously trolling at this point for a response from me. You claim to have a level mind about things, then completely drink ALL the coolaid when something negative is said about Americans, whether proven or not, but then dismiss out of hand anything positive. Did an American steal your girlfriend or something? Wow. I cannot make you stop hating Americans, and I will not try to. I can only point out the one-sidedness of your posts, which make drastic assumptions.
The UN does not have sovereignty over any nation-not even the U.S.-but can facilitate multiple nations operating together towards a common goal. The hospitals and schools are NEW, not replacements for bombed ones-even Americans, evil as we are, aren't in the business of wasting ammunition on buildings that aren't shooting at us-if you TRULY have friends in the armed services you would know this.
You also pretend you KNOW that all secret flights from the US are no doubt for the purpose of torture (and no doubt taking Polish children to the salt mines)-but truth is you have no idea. I do not know what they are for, neither do you. They could be smuggling Dick Cheney his favorite vodka for all we know. All countries have secret flights. Not all of them are for torture, hate to disappoint. Everyone loves a juicy scandal that can't be disproved without admitting to some other secret, however.
Yes of course, in America, the worst things and the biggest failings people striving for great things make-are what is plastered all over the news, regardless of facts, evidence or anything. Haditha? So...you are going to take an incident involving perhaps 6 people (how many are there again, 250,000?) who are being tried for war crimes (not even all CONVICTED yet) and pretend that is how America routinely operates? get a life. If we routinely operated that way those Marines would be given medals and the village "sanitized".
Regardless, I feel that because of my position as a member of the US armed forces you are using this thread as a "slam America" forum. I merely posted to praise the professionalism of the POLISH troops I had been on operations with. Do I feel we are doing the right thing over there? yes. Do I think the world knows the truth? no, and probably won't for a few years. Do I agree with our president on everything? Not even close.
That about covers my bases, and I've made most of my points. If you choose to only believe negative things, there is no amount of positive I can show you to change your opinion. Some people need to wallow in their own hatred for awhile before they cool off.
Cheers.

Disagreeing on Iraq doesn't make me hate Americans.

No, "slamming" the administrations policy, yes.

Huh ?

Oh.

whilst you may present your case well, the underlying premiss of what you are saying is wrong

its the inability of many americans to accept this that breeds the hatred and contempt so many have for your country, its people and administration

whilst america's administration might lead the way, its the blind eagerness of so many americans that follow which, perhaps unfortunately, leads to the slamming of your country you seem uncomfortable and suprised at

despite thinking that you present the solution, your attitude is infact very much part of the problem

very well said bw. :)

The gang of 5 (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice + Powell) lied and fabricated evidence to start the war.

The US never likes to face the consequences of it's actions.

and who does like?

Fair enough, there are plenty of AMERICANS who disagree on Iraq, although there is a caveat that MOST of them have no idea what is actually happening there, and assume the worst, as the media here will not report anything good, headlines have to be written in scandal and blood. However, someone who readily believes unsubstantiated accusations made by people who just HAPPEN to be the enemies of our current administration, about torture, murder, rape-as if it is simple matter-of-fact, yet has a hard time believing that Americans would build schools, hospitals or power plants, without having somehow destroyed some pre-existing ones? You have said nothing nice about the US, only made horrid accusation after horrid accusation, dismissed positive things, or perhaps negatives about our enemies as if they were made up by a group of 3 or 4 people in the white house basement. Yet you claim not to hate Americans? This is difficult for me to believe based on your statements but I can give you the benefit of a doubt. IT is possible I guess, to accuse a people of being bent on murder, rape, torture and (apparently) incapable of human good, (you went far beyond simple disagreement on the war) and still not hate them, but it doesn't seem likely.

There are plenty of things to be upset about America for without going for the things that are not substantiated and have questionable credibility. That is what bothers me most, I guess, not that people disagree with American policies, but their readiness, almost eagerness, to believe only the negative accusations, without even verifying the facts. Sometimes negative things happen and are true, but it is hard for me to stand by when some of these statements being made have no possible way of being substantiated, but are produced as if they are absolute fact.

For instance, the fact that the Iraqi people were prepared to revolt against Saddam at the end of the first war-and our officials told them America would back them up. The very day they revolted, our politicians pulled the plug, and Saddam's helicopters gunned them down like cattle. Now we are fighting along side Iraqis, and you can imagine how hard it is to earn trust of some of the people who remember what happened in 1991, who often fear we will leave them(again) before they are prepared on their own. This REALLY happened and has been acknowledged by people on all sides of the issue; I do not see the same credibility however, in someone who claims they were captured, and tortured, but conveniently managed somehow to escape and tell this horrid tale to the cameras and throngs of reporters...perhaps it's true, but sounds off to me, especially without (so far) any real proof.

BW, I have no problems when we are slammed for things we actually have DONE. That can be embarrassing for us but truth is truth. Abu Ghraib happened. The perpetrators who did it were arrested, tried, convicted, and in some cases imprisoned. It does not take away the embarrassment to their country these people created with their stupid antics. However I take issue with the wild eyed accusations being made with little or no basis in fact, by people who believe anything negative claimed about the U.S. but nothing positive, regardless of whether it was proclaimed by 12 cardinals, the Pope, and written in the clouds. I've painted over bloodstains left presumably by Saddam or Uday's torturers (who did not "torture" people with loud music-or stress positions or humiliation, such as some Americans have been accused of. They went straight for the big stuff) just so people could work in the same building without the constant grim reminder. I've also seen stockpiles of Chem-Bio protective equipment stored next to short and medium range weapons, which were fueled, ready to launch, and may or may not have had any warheads in them. I know that proves nothing in the scheme of things, and while I feel one does not don a condom unless he plans to use it, you don't hear me proclaiming I have PROOF that Saddam had anything, only that I believe he did. There is a difference.
I also am somewhat alarmed that while the world is wasting their time babbling about President Bush and the bogey-man and whoever else, who cannot be re-elected, Putin is quietly positioning himself to control the fuel alotment to the entire European continent, and befriending himself to a nation that wishes the annihilation of several others even going so far as threatening Poland and others with nuclear weapons for wanting to PROTECT themselves with a missile defense shield....times are bad, I fear. It isn't as if he has offered to protect Poland or any other European country with RUSSIAN anti-missile technology, after all...no, he wants Iran to feel like they have a clear shot at any of the Infidel countries they want. But that is a different thread.
Does Poland have an interest in Iraq? I think so; no it isn't necessarily to befriend or make buddy-buddy with Americans, although I would be glad to serve alongside Polish troops any day-no, I think if anything, it is to help ensure Iraq gets on her feet as Iraq, not a puppet of Iran and Putin, nor the U.S. for that matter, and to prevent any one alliance to control the lion share of the economy of the planet.

The way I see it:
- Americans blew it by attacking Iraq. The decision was stupid and irresponsible.
- Poland joined them for some political gratifications which seemed worthwhile at the time
- The war blew up in the faces of both (and then some)
- Now it's too late to just pick up and leave with all the alQ within, and Iran next door. Staying and finishing the job (vs. leaving and risking a super major political and military issues) unfortunately appears to be the only proper course of action at the moment.

How is his underlying premise wrong.....there are three sides to every story, your side, our side and the truth......I think he was just pointing out that in order to get a fair balance to form a valid opinion, one needs to look at all sides. That's my interpretation of what he was saying.....of course, I am an American, so what do I know.....:P

the premise is that US is doing grreat things while it is actually accomplishing the opposite..

The US IS doing great things....granted, there are many f..k ups the US has made also which those are the things that get reported, because that is what sells......the US, like every country on the face of this planet is by no means perfect....we all have our good and bad points. What would be nice is if those countries or individuals that have such great disdain for the US could take a look at themselves every once in a while instead of concentrating on the US and our f..k ups.

God I hate pessimistics who are so blinded by ignorance that they refuse to acknowledge the fact that any good news is actually true.

i know things are hard to accept for y when things aren't all that peachy. and while US may be doing some great things, US is also effing up majorly and america seems to be ingorant to that fact. just like BW said..
let's hear this so called "good news"

Why so you can brush it off and put up pictures of Americans Eating Babies and Polish Troops Torturing Villagers?, Im not waisting my time anymore.

No things are not hard for me to accept....I have acknowledged that the US has messed up majorly and we are not perfect. I also don't think most of America is ignorant of the fact the we messed up......I think most Americans are conscience of that fact.

confucius say

whole world think you kunt, time to look in mirror

I think John P listed quite a few good things in his posts....no need to reiterate.....just go back and read.

seems you're the one brushing off.


by re-electing shrubco we showed them. :D

Yeah, and had they elected Kerry, there would still be something for everyone to b*tch about, because someone would find something to b*tch about.

I agree, we do need to look in the mirror; I also think many have......but I also think those that criticise need to look at themselves also.....maybe worry about there own back yard before worrying about ours.

shrubco?? lol bush and company..ha ha good one..

ding, ding, ding.. WE ought to look in our own back yard before leveling someone else's. we have plenty of issues here we ought to fix before blowing a chunk in the desert.

I am sure we all agree on that, but cant change this until the shrub leaves office.
but meantime, I am sure as ranj states that others need to stop pointing fingers
when their own country is also involved or has problems as well and its really funny
how people say bullsh*t but they sure like the hospitality that they get when they
come to America.. were not bad.. they know it. so I am not even going to go there
anymore ,this is really fruitless to argue a point of what? that our govt is corrupt?

yes and so is theirs..... tell me something new :)

If you will take note: