What do Poles think about Turks?

Czechs and Slovaks (not Poles) used to sterilize Gypsies durring communism. Now Gypsies form Romania conquer Italy.



http://eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com/blog.cfm/roma_sterilization_in_ea st_europe


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/12/europe/EU-GEN-Czech-Gypsy-St erilization.php

Jukrek,

In terms of raw population figures, there were physically more Jews living in what is today Poland than anywhere else in Europe, perhaps the rest of the world at the time, with the possible exception of Wilnus and Kowno in Lithuania.

The word 'paradise' poses problems. It suggests that, as in Weimar Germany during the 1920's, the Jews somehow were living in a perfect society; accepted, assimilated and compeltely without peril. The picture is rather, especially in Poland, that the Jews were living in a fool's paradise, mostly unassimilated, they were allowed to remain in Poland, in their crowded shtettls, because they were of monetary value to the Polish government. Indeed, they were numerous, yet there was ALWAYS the undercurrent of bigotry and hatred, same as everywhere in Europe, except perhaps for the Scandinavian countries, whose Jews were so few, or even Ireland!

I thought the topic was about Turks.How could the Jews blend again inside?

Southern,

Bigotry against one group is really bigotry against all groups!! -:)

Marek

Answer for question if Jews are fool or not ... I leave for other PF members.

Maybe they were fool that they called Poland their paradise ...

Maybe you are right that so anitsemitic Poles accepted the bigest european Jewish society in Poland.

Maybe you are right that Scandniavians and Germans were so tolerant that Jews prefered to settle in anisemitic Poland.

Maybe you are right that Poland was not perfect esspecialy when we notice that Jews achieved full rights in USA after WWII (like blacks).

Stupid Jews

as to Jewish assimilation ...

some were assimilated some were not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_Jews



:(((((((((((






(in post communist party)

---

---

---

:))))))))))))))))

Berek Joselewicz (1764-1809), colonel during Kościuszko Uprising and Napoleonic wars

Szymon Aszkenazy, Polish historian

Gustaw Herling-Grudziński, writer

Tamara de Lempicka, painter (Jewish mother)

Daniel Libeskind, architect

How it is possible that some could make carrer some couldn't ? Maybe situation is similar to blacks in USA ? Or Turks in Germany ? Arabs in France ?

thous who wanted to integrate had possiblity. Those who didn't want were living like those Jews form "fiddler on the roof"

Every day when I take my dog for a walk around the lakes and the forest, I look at the trees, smell the fresh air, gaze at the birds flying and swimming on the lake and I think to myself, I wonder what the Turks are doing at this moment in time........duh

The examples whom you've cited, Jukrek, suggests that your research is at best incomplete, at worst, horribly skewed! Aside from that, I fear you also misunderstood the expression 'a fool's paradise', then again, English is a second language for you, as, for that matter, Polish is for me.

In English, 'a fool's paradise' comes, I believe, from Milton's "Paradise Lost" and refers to Lucifer's fall from grace. Then again, it may refer to the imaginary Land of Cocknaigne, where noone has to work and red wine runs freely from the streams, cooked pheasant hangs from trees!

You mean, not that the Jews themselves were fools, but surely, that they foolishly deluded themselves into believing that any European country would be an eternal safe haven from anti-semitism.

The Turkish question is more complicated. There is again that 'little' issue of the still officially denied Massacre of the Armenians....solely because they were Christians who did not accept Islam. -:)-:)

Marek

Typical american post.




http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Tes tament-Burned.php





21st century ...

of course you are not going to find such articles in American press. :)

It's not a case of US/Western vs. 'foreign'-non-Western, press, but rather of truth vs. fiction.

I too am aware of local TV news distortions or omissions. No journal or report is immune from the influence of political bias. I read the Polish news on occasion in order to keep myself abreast of current events, and in the original Polish!! Do you read English so well that you can sense distortion in reportage??

Incidentally, the excerpts you've cleverly extracted are probably out of context. It is a known fact that Jewish anti-Christian sentiment, once more prevalent than it is now, was a direct result of centuries-old Christ-killer myths being disseminated across Europe and elsewhere. Everyone knows that the Romans wanted Christ killed. Pontius Pilate, by the way, was not Jewish. LOL

If your clippings are true, I'd be the first to say that wanton violence never justifies violence. Self defense though, is another thing entirely, hence, the need for context.

Arab anti-Jewish sentiment is merely based on incorrect readings of history, not to mention incorrect interpretations of the Koran, in which some see ALL outsiders as Infidels of Allah who must be destroyed. Enlightened minds, among them Muslim clerics, will gladly tell you that this is dangerous nonsense!!

Finally, the Jews have never had a deliberate policy of extermination of non-Jews. This can be confirmed in all sources as a matter of historical and public record.

It is British article. I am not telling stories about false "west"


I've noticed that when you don't have arguments you try to show that opponent in debate "don't speak english" -:)

---

How would you call this bible burining in Israel ? How would you call this boy who recived bomb just because he was christian ?

---

after your edit. don't be so defensive.

'Just because he was Christian?'.....

And how about Jassir Arafat's continued war against Israel? Just because Israel is populated by Jews??

One wrongful act hardy justifies another.
Why do I bring up English knowledge when challenged? Simply because non-native speakers such as yourself commonly make mistakes in their attempt to impress English speakers with the calibre of their English.

Humility (skromność) is needed. Conversely, I'd hardly be so arrogantly self confident were I posting only in Polish.

you are simple wrong -:) Lets leave language ...



So Jassir Arafat wanted to kill Jews. That is why Israelis burn Christian books and bomb Christian missionaries ?

Now I understood what Poles think about Turks.

I am the Türk who wrote the 118th post and the others stated in the 118th post.

The issue you want us to accept is genocide, not massacre.Some westerns want us to accept that we did the same thing what Hitler did to jews in Armenian issue.In France, saying "no genocide" is banned even if the sayer is a historician or a political party leader.Can you imagine that?Also, in that events, Armenians attacked unarmed Turkish people, even when Ottoman army was in the WW1.They want freedom, nobody gives freedom to others in Europe, too.Look at Samis, look at Helvetians, look at Valons, look at Basque people, look at IRA bla bla bla.Anyway, for the sake of creating Great Armenia, if you start to kill Turks or other muslims, they will of course have a response, too.But, i mean the paramilitary folk people, gangs.Armenians had gangs, too.Before, that events, Armenians were too rich with the gold trade etc. while Türks were peasant and just soldier.Ottoman officers decided to exile them to Syria, but there was not enough security for them.Some gangs attacked them in the voyage, epidemic invasions were not cut due to the lack of enough health measures, officer didn't make their duty well, but the country was in the WW1.I am a grandson and an eyewitness of the people who saw what cruelties which Armenians did against unarmed Türks.So, we have own stories, too.In that era, there were some racist attitudes, too.Actors were not just the Türks.You don't know what Bulgars, Greeks did to Türks in Balkans.You don't know and don't want to know their pains, too.But, i don't accuse any nation particularly with racism.Because, human is human everywhere and in all eras, nations have some similar thoughts, ideologies.In that era, racism was stronger.But, we can't be the only victim of racism during the WW1 history.The point we don't and won't accept is this double-standard.Armenians were racist, too against us.They still use Mountain Ağrı(currently inside the Turkish borders) as an anthem.Get it?Yeah, there were massacres like in everywhere, sometimes against us, sometimes by us but we have never did a systematic genocide like Hitler did against Jews.They want us to accept genocide, not massacre.And i wonder what holocausts Jews did against Germans before Hitler?How can we be put in the same cathegory with Germany?Also, most of the studies made by Armenians depends on oral sources, some are exaggerated and all of them ignore what they did against us while poor Armenia inhabitants are suffering in Armenia, now.In Armenia, almost everything they use are our products, they come to İstanbul to work with illegal ways.And why France is not wanted to genocide against Algerians, or Sweden against Samis, China against Uyghurs, USSR against Crimean Tatars etc.?Those are all systematic genocides even if the victims had no sin.Finally, we have never had problems with non muslims as a nation.I don't care what other muslim countries think about this matter.It is really too ridiculous to link this issue with religion; this is the indicator of the ignorance about Turkish society and Turkish state tradition.

The killing of all armenian population in Turkey(500000) can be described as genocide.

Armenian Genocide

Guest!

Long prior to the Shoah, Hitler was known to have remarked to a close aide when asked if such an act as what we now call 'The Holocaust' would be permissable. His response: 'But who remembers Armenia?', i.e. the Turkish genocide of millions of Armenian Christians!!

One of our great short story writers William Saroyan, wrote lyrically, yet with pathos, about this time.

This is not a slight against Turkish culture or the Turkish people as a nation, merely a statement concerning an extremely horrible period on their history! I'm presently studying Turkish! I also love German and Polish, aware as I am of the horrendous anti-semitism, not to mention plain xenophobia, of both countries!

A parting thought: Do we as free people want to be saying to future generation: 'Who remembers Auschwitz'?

Marek wake up !

Israelis burn books. Israelis kill kids because they are christsians. Israelis hold paletinians in gettos. Israelis have one of the most segregated countries. one of the last countries with apperthaid.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Tes tament-Burned.php







http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1



Palestinans are complicated issue. Why a hell they burn new testemant on streets. Why they bomb christians.

Jukrek,

Enlighten yourself! By the way, what precisely did you mean by 'Leave language'?? Are you translating from Polish? You may e-mail me privately at panlech31@yahoo.com, if it's easier. I appreciate that you all are so eager to polish your English skills!! -:) LOL

LOL LOL LOL

Leave the Israelis in peace.This topic is about Turks.There are dozens of topics about Jews in PF,you can write there if you want.

When you hate Turks, you hate Greeks. :(
We are like brothers it is one blood and two countries.
It is like realtionship between Russians and Poles.

Greatings form Greece ! I hope you love Turkey !

I think, in fact I know, we've veered far off the original topic of why are Turks the subject of such animosity throughout much of Europe today.

Actually, who hates period, hates all people. Bigotry knows no boundries of reason. Therefore, yes, who hates Turks also hates Greeks, black Africans, Gypsies, Jews etc... , all the convenient scapegoats of history.

The moral here: Hatred never stops with one group. That's the shameful part about it!!

Crap!

It's the same as lefties screaming "xenophobe" if someone expresses his dislike about one special group.
It's a stupid multikulti argument and doesn't wash...
(Especially if the dislike is concentrated on a group of immigrants belonging to a special people - not the people in their own country).

...but that might be to much of a differentiation for a lefty multikulti tree hugger!

PS:The wish for differentiation between groups of peoples (tribes if you so want) as in "my people" and "your people" is totally natural and healthy.

Didn't show the Jews the world since nearly 2000 years how it's done? Never fully assimiliating, always staying Jews? Apart from their host people...always wanting to beware their specialties? I admire them for that...

Where ethnics mix frictions appear, that's also only natural!

Everybody in Balkans hates Turks(except Albanians).Guess why.



Seldom a Greek fighting a Turk thought that he fights against his brother.



You mean the Yenitsari who were forced to become muslims after being kidnapped from their families?Or the Greeks in western coast of Asia Minor who became islamized?



No way.They are both Slavs.Greeks feel a lot closer to Slavs than to Turks.In fact everyone in Balkans denies any relationship to Turks.It is considered to be a disgrace.



No way you are Greek.Unless you happen to stay now for vaccation.



Why do you hope?Turks have built absolutely nothing the 500 years they occupied Balkans.They turned the region which was developed before they appeared into a backwards region centuries behind other european nations.Due to Turks Renaissance and industrial Revolution never reached Balkans.Every bad trait in region is attributed to turkish occupation.So why be grateful?

It is a fact that the state of Osman Turkey was superior even to the empires of Great Britain. When you assert that Turkey has done nothing for 500 years, you assert plain and simple nonsense! How do you measure your opposing standard of 'something'? Are you measuring against Western or Osman standards? While it is true that the state of Turkey's economy was for decades lagging far behind Germany, Britain or Scandinavia, don't forget either that all of Western Europe was not on an equal economic playing field. Take Ireland thirty years ago. It was the poorest nation in Western Europe and look at Ireland today; The Celtic Tiger.

As far as 'multi-culti' (spelled with a 'c' in English-:)LOL) arguments, I'm interested in how one might intelligently debate what I've said thus far. All I've heard is right-wing raving!!

I will confess though that immigration is still a most important issue in our society. Scapegoating one or more groups in frustration and anger however, is hardly the solution.

I prefer "mulitkulti"...it has become a swear word in Germany!

Southern for Far-Wing Slavonic nationalists we are Turks. It is partly true. Have you seen Poles ? Tall, well build, blue eyes. We are not slavonic nation.

Greeks are similar to Turks and it looks strange when Greek talks about Turks like you do.

"Scapegoating" as you call it is the first step in voicing that the rosy multikulti globalization is not that rosy nor the only way.
The end will not be a happy race mixing with resulting in some beige colored undifferentiated masses but rather the contrary is happening.

Many people won't accept to become strangers in their own land...and as long this question isn't adressed other than with: "Get used to it you racist" more violence is looming on the horizon.
(Maybe not tomorrow since most people are still living fairly well but maybe next week...)

In what sense?



Meaning civiization.What monuments did it build,what kind of education did it offer,how much progress in science did it make.



I know that by Osman standards they did excellent since they reached an unbeatable degree of laziness.

Civilization?? One man's 'civilization' is another's barbarism. Hitler and the Nazis thought themselves the ultimate in Germanic world civilization. Von Ribbentrop even considered himself one of the 'Kulturdeutsche' (cultured Germans). Civilized??? The very thought begs the question.

Furthermore, let's distinguish between a 'civilized', 'cultured'/'cultivated' and 'enlightened' people. In addition, Southern, The Nazis took science, research and cinematography, for example to new, undreamed of heights....but to what end?