Polish-German Relations in the Present

Guten Nächte , fruende :)

We should make a law that says it's illegal to speak German on this forum...

:]

Hehe, Polish is still okay here ? ;)

Then, dobranacht the_falkster (a mix of Polish and German, it's Polman or Gerlish, as you want)

:)

Haha. Reminds me of the time one of my friends got tongue tied trying to say German, and said Germish...

:]

LoL i'm glad i'm refreshing your memory ;)

Yeah. Memory's been fried lately.

Did you eat it ?...

:)

?
we might have very different views but THAT is unexpected but very fair.
thanks. hope you had a good night too...

ok so maybe we should discusse about problems we have with Germans.

1 Nord Stream (gas pipe)

2 They want to bulid kind of center in Berlin showing them as victims of WWII

3 case of western terytories of Poland


1) Nord Stream is gas pipe which avoid Poland is much more expenisve than the other projects.

2) The most interesting fact is that Hitler was supported especialy by Germans living in Wrocla/Breslau or Szczecin, and this gorund are traditionaly slavic ground where Poles were oprest by centuries ... yest this gorunds in first part of XX century were definately German, but it was the result of anty Polish policy in the past. In 1945 they were expeled (it was decision of Russian UK and USA not our) and Poles expeled form eastern part of Poland started new life there, and this ground are core of Polish origin.

about Germanisation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation

old borders of Poland



so idea of showing Germans as victims is pathetic ... borders are result of their policy in the past. Just think what would happen if Hitler have won the war ...

3) Maybe it is connected to second point, but what is important:
We know that German gov dont support organisation which want our grounds for Germans, but the fact is that those organisations really exist and we have so many processes in courts with them in this case, that we decided to make pressure on Germans to solve this porblem by agreement. We want them to sign official document that their gov will take this all processes on their accout ... unfortumately they dont want to sign it. In this case we proposse them "zero option" we dont want antyhing form them and they dont wan anything form us. What is impotrant Germans destroyed Warszawa (95% was totaly destroyed) killed 6 mln of our citizens (3 mln jews and 3 mln of other religion) and havent payed anything for that. We havent particpated in Marshal plan, yes they have been paying big money for EU contries just after the war, but unfortumately we havent been in EU then ...

Shortly we want to close this case, but last time Germans started to think they are victims ... what is pathetic. And Germans live in the past not we ...


What is funny some German organisations dreamed that when we will be in EU they will simply buy western grounds of Poland ;) and what do we have now ... they cant buy it (we negociated it before accesion to EU) but last time what is really good sign Poles started to buy eastern Germany ... what means that we are ready to change our law and permit to buy "Polish land" ;) for EU citizens...

you should check your information on this one mate...


okay... so you show an old map of poland here but at the same moment you state

...
very interesting... ;-)

shall we all start looking up historic maps and just throw them in when they suit our argumentation best???
i believe in looking forwards not backwards...


you probably would speak german today...
however, i hope we all agree that it is best that hitler did not win the war... that would not have been a germany i want to be a son of...

Ive checked they want to build it ...

http://www.z-g-v.de/flashintro/eng/index_flash_eng.html

in english


western part of Poland is originaly Polish , not German.

and the fact is that Germans setled there and later started to expel Poles by force and didnt treat us equal ... it is historical fact

What can be interesting Germans living there very strongly supported Hitler they wanted to "race of lords" or sth like that ... SS was very popular in this region. They lost they were sended to their home land Germany. Yes I think we can live peacefuly, border between Poland and German is ok.

What is interesting a lot of Polish people buy properies in Germany (close to Polsih border) because it is chiper but they work in Poland ... after Schenegen it will be much easier so I think more of Polish people will buy some properies there ...

yes we can live peacefuly now :))))



because it is our first recognized border


Polish tribes come form here (Wroclaw, Szczecin, Poznan, Krakow, Gdansk)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)

German HUNS have stolen this grounds but have been PUNISHED

... it is history get over it ...

i know that they are going to build it.

your information is wrong though, or you allegedly express it this way, that germans would present themselves there as victims of ww2... THAT is what i meant you are wrong with... ;-)

people in germany who really believe they are victims of ww2 and the aftermath are a very small (and stupid) minority... and the organisations you are speaking of are seen and discussed very controversially. the vast majority of germans live in the present, not in the past.

regarding all the historic blah blah...
do you believe poland would be better off if they had "their" land back and the borders shut again?

isn't the tendency in europe not going more and more towards opening borders?
think this idea a bit more into the future (instead - and that is for everyone - always looking up history books). eventually borders will be a thing of the past and we can all live with our local and regional traditions but peacefully and in mutual respect for each other...

should we not appreciate what we have got and see how we can develop from there? people today are so much lacking vision and therefor have to look backwards...

i believe it's wrong...



edit:


exactly...

and as such it should remain where it belongs...

in the past.

no problem with that...

Get over seems to be a common outlook. Get over or learn from? Carol

I support EU, because I think next war between European states would kill Europe at all ... so we have to live together.




I think that idea of EU shows that we try to learn ... there is another discussion: what is proper directon of EU ... and who is going to lead ;)))))

hmm...

if they don't know yet i would be available... ;-)

YOU no WAY ... I think I m the best ;)

What is more ;-))

I think our proposal is really ok (...)

Come on guys....shouldn't we put the leadership decision to a vote from the people? hehe
;)

This is a very dangerous thought for Brussels beaurocracy.

Filios is the Polish(-Greek) counterpart of the German chauvinist and Polonophobe calling himself Bratwurst Boy, who used to drop into this forum and insult Polish people and Poland.

Falkster appears to be a completely different type of German. That's good.

So far so good, that is.
:)

I would not like to be compared to that racist bastard. I remember his posts, when I still wasn't a registered user.

Tell me Puzzler, whatever made you think that I am a Germanophobe? I respect the Germans, but with equality. I have done nothing to insult the German people and the German nation, so please do not compare me to him.




Falkster seems like a decent enough German, who only wants the best. But Puzzler, you do not know what his underlying intentions are.
So far so good? Are you referring to the selling of Polands soul? I know many just like you, would do anything for respect in Europe, and more prosperity, even if it meant selling the motherland.

thanks for that puzzler...

i see myself rather than an internationalist...
was traveling a lot, lived and worked in south america, now in england... that puts many things into perspective...

knowing our history it is quite easy to understand that germans are always educated (at school for example) so that they are not allowed to have any hint of patriotism. in germany when you were waving a flag you would quickly be put into a far right corner...

this is actually quite a sad story if you compare it for example to the english people who (today) have a rather relaxed way of patriotism and can easily joke about their certain inabilities (that is actually enough material for a seperate thread)...

however in germany we all had to look for a different ways and means of identification, which (amongst the more educated) lead to a more open mind and tolerance...
we know our our history and therefor are able to prevent it from repeating itself...

however there are a few idiots... but they are a minority and not representative for todays germany...

i'm most certainly not one of them, what matters the most to me... ;-)


edit:

trust me there are none. if i have learnt one thing in life than it is to clearly say what i think and not to hide my intentions. this way it is up to everyone else to decide if they want to deal with me or not. what you see is what you get...
not always easy in england i have to admit... ;-)

A colleague joined LPR I see. :)

I have been reading up/studying a little about this aspect of German culture over the summer, and what you said here is in alignment with what I have learned. I was very surprised to learn how guarded many German's are today in regard to expressing themselves politically because of the strict taboos resulting from the negative consequences of historical nationalism. As an American, I came to realize that the freedom of speech that I take for granted (we can and do say say pretty much anything, idiot or not!) is a rare commodity in many parts of the world.

Next, I was shocked at how "fresh" the fallout from WWII is (I especially got that sense from this forum). Then I started to ask myself questions, like "Where is this coming from? The grandparents? The young adults of today?". It seemed to me that it (unresolved anger, fear and frustration between Poland and Germany, et al) was getting passed down to young people from older family members, with help from the media.

Then I wondered, if I were a 20 something in Germany today, how would I react to all the restrictions, imposed guilt, overwhelming pressure to be so politically correct all the time? I have to say (as a very free Ammie of course) I'd be fed up! I had nothing to do with what that generation did! Why do I have to tip toe around on eggshells? To hell with this! This is MY life and I will live it my way. (Of course this would get me in a LOT of trouble in Germany). So what would happen? How would I rebel? How could I be an individual and have a voice, when conformity is demanded? I think I would burst at the seams. There is too much independent rebel in me.....I would probably do something counter to the culture just to be heard, even if I didn't really agree with the cause! I think I would have a kind of anger in me, looking for a way out.

Does that make sense? Is that any different than a generation of young people struggling to assert themselves by letting their hair grow and following the Beatles? (another generation, I know...but you get the idea?

My bottom line is this: I would rather see people speaking freely and "getting it out of their system" than keeping it bottled up (a pressure cooker eventually blows). I see that what comes out is a bit ugly sometimes, especially when one side does not try to see the other side's view OR tries to trump each other out of ego. *sighs*

I can put myself into Polish shoes as well. There is a lot of pain, agony, and suffering there. But acting out the victim role is just as dangerous as boiling in the pressure cooker. It keeps you chained up to the past and prolongs the misery. It would eat me alive to try to live like THAT! How could I ever fight my way out of that kind of fog to do or be anything? I think I would feel depressed and "stuck".

My fave line from the "behind the scenes footage" of The Pianist from Roman Polanski (paraphrased): "This film shows that there is good and bad in all people. There were bad Germans and good Poles, but there were also good Germans and bad Poles".

Amen, Roman.

- It seems you're putting yourself in the wrong shoes. Where and when are we really 'acting out '(sic) 'the victim role'? It's just a stereotype that we do.

Yeah, you seem to do much better when you put yourself in the German shoes.... :)

As for quoting from 'Roman,' especially as regards the line: 'There were bad Germans and good Poles, but there were also good Germans and bad Poles,' the meaning of your interpretation of it seems to be: it was 50-50, Germans were bad and good, and Poles were bad and good. Hence the final account is zero. :)

Was it really so? Was it really 50-50? Is it really always so relative that there are no those who are worse and better in given circumstances?

Do you unconsciously prefer to hold such a view because you are American and the view conveniently justifies the conduct of the United States towards many nations, such as Native Indians, Vietnamese, Latin Americans, Iraqis?

Finally, I would be very careful with believing any artist; artists usually aren't sages.

PS. Polanski's film shows one more thing: that there were some Jews, such as the Jewish police in the ghetto, who were really really bad....



- Same in Poland. We are right away branded as 'nationalists.' But in the US, Canada, UK, national flags are put out everywhere.

I think some people dont understand issue,

as to WWII ... in our courts we have several processes between our citizens and German one, in case of properies which belonged to German before WWII ... of courese they lost but it is annoying ... and it is bad for our citizens, how would you feel if Your grandfader would have been expeled by force form eastern Poland to nowadays Western Poland ... and now ansestors of some nazi F**** goes to court and you have to deal with it, you win but it isnt nice situation. What is the fact, there are thousends of such cases and it is bad for our citizens. Our gov wants to close this case, and Germans say that it isnt important. In my opinion it is important.

As the result some Polish organizations started to count how much Germans should pay for what they did ... The fact is that they have payed for French they have payed for Jews but they havent payed anything for Poles ... if Germans try after 60 years get some properties, why the hell we shouldnt try to get sth ... (way of thinking)

We have to solve this issue.

Yes most of nowadays Germans dont live in the past but this part which live in the past is really annoying... We want to close this issue ...


as to Polish/Czech reactions according to this center showing Germans as victims (this project is supported by German gov in cooperation with Germans citizens and their ansestors who comes from western part of Poland) we are simply against this project. What is interesting I have seen Brtis reactions when Germans wanted to show air atacks on their towns as genocide ... we react in the same way.

agree.
in my case it lead to me leaving germany and being proud to be a german in england. and you know what... people here appreciate me for this.
the good thing for me now is that i can be proud of living in england embracing their way og live and if i feel like i can be "the german" at any given time. it's great...


as i said somewhere earlier. germany is not going to blow in an aggressive way anymore. so much we learnt from our history...
i don't feel the pressure and holding back thing in germany as something that urges to eventually burst...


i bellieve you glorify slightly in saying this but that would be again material for another thread...


not in any given circumstances (ie historical period) but overall i would agree that we are very close to 50-50. maybe 49.8-50.2 but still i believe we should look into the future and respect each others past...
going back further andf further in history will eventually show that once we were running through the forrests with sticks hunting mammooths... ;-) you know what i mean.


touché! ;-)


which is a good thing, isn't it? a HEALTHY identification with your heritage should be normal. remember the world cup last year in germany? i wasn't there but for the first time since ages german flags were waved like that without being a threat. i believe the germans were good hosts... now we should build on that...

EDIT:

today nobody should pay anymore for what happened at ww2....


absolutely right. which proves that this (small) minority of backward thinking germans should shut up! and yes our gov fails to make a point in this...


agree


couldn't agree more.

you know me by now. this issue does us both no good in looking forward to live with each other. i simply hope that in poland are people genarally thinking "yes there is a small group of silly germans, but the rest seems to be okay"...
you know what i mean.
don't let this issue ruin or hinder a growing relationship between our nations within europe...

ohhh yes american view ... Poles like indians or black americans ... no comment

What I want to add ...

becuse some people think that Germans apeared in Poland like vinkings in Europe, or English in north America...

I live in Poznan and there is little statue of poor German imigrants who found Poland safe place to live...





later

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf



hopefuly we have won ...

BTW We have dont what Irish should have done in Northen Irealnd ... and maybe Serbs in Kosovo ...

It is history ... I think we can go forward, but we have to close some issues.

I've forgoten to add quote about Poznan.

Yes,it is fresh because in Europe there were mostly losers from this war and they want to know why they lost.

It is coming by itself,by the circumstances.When a Pole goes through some situations and certain behaviours,he starts to wonder why things are like this,what led to them.



They say the same and cause even more anger to the other people who suffered from german actions.



You would have no trouble.Germany starts to use again the national emblems as a way to inspire people for higher productivity.



In Germany you simply would not say anything because in this country the authorities are respected.If you rebel like this,you become a danger for the general well being.Amis in this aspect seem to Germans paranoid.



In fact it is some generation when people try to cut all their hair to make good skinheads.



It is Europe,you do not understand.What is free expression for somebody,it is fascism for somebody else.Many prefer control.



I think in USA there are many minorities who play the victim role very efficiently.I have heard about affirmative action in favour of blacks,measures in favour of Hispanics etc.



Have you read Rokosovsky's orders to the red army?''Comrades you should realize that there are no good Germans.The only good German is the dead German.Kill,kill,glorious soldiers of the red army.Do not respect the pride of german women.Make them remember you with terror for the next hundred years''.