Polish-German Relations in the Present

dwelling on the past does not a brighter future make - put the past behind you and move on



i doubt any one gives a fly fuk if you give the low down on me - i certainly dont and doubt very much you could say anything i would give a second glance

youre a bitter old woman carol with very little to live for except the past - fuk knows what your future looks like but i doubt it will be of any benefit to poland

Bubba, UK, mutha fuka

Oh sure...

Reminding the real history of WW2=living in the past

Reminding "suffering" of poor Gerries=building the future

Yawn...

Bratwurst lives in the future.

Everyone could try living in the present! Past is done, future hasn't happened......you know the drill.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Learn from the past,but don't wallow in it. :)

- Sorry, but I haven't noticed this ability as regards us Poles.



- Give examples of those 'comments and attitudes by some members' and of my being 'very convinced that people hate Poles, even when they don't!'

Hmmm...I was thinking about the time you freaked out when that little girl was accidentlally shot after a brawl in...was it Italy? You absolutely came unglued about that, saying it was just an attack on Poles.

- Where did I say 'it was just an attack on Poles'? Aren't you putting your own words in my mouth? - What I suggested was that there's a strong Polonophobia in Italy which is, as anywhere else, fanned out by the media psychopaths.



- You've been certainly, ahem, 'positively' contributing to the image of UK among us Poles, by your coarseness and brutality.

So Puzzly......what do you think of Mister Tusk? Will he improve Poland's relationship with Germany and other EU countries?

personally, i am more than happy to re-enforce the british stereotype of a nation that doesnt take kindly to bull sh!t from upstarts or anyone else

- Unfortunately, it's not that stereotype that you appear to have been reinforcing. And Carol didn't deserve the lowdown from you.

she misenterpreted something i wrote and jumped to a conclusion - as poles on here seem to do - and made a comment on it. rather than go thru the rigmarol of telling her she made a mistake and then getting the uppity reply that always seems to follow i decided to re-enforce her incorrect view

- Your reply looks pretty uppity to me. Anyhow, I was brought up being told one should be kind to and gentle with women. You apparently have a different upbringing. Or maybe you've been coarse towards Carol because she is a Polish woman?

i was brougt up to judge people as individuals and treat them as they deserve to be treated... and not to treat people differently because of their race creed colour or gender. i thought carol was an american women desperately clinging on to a polish past

u werent very gentle with me.. but thats in the past.. right.. :)

or miranda for that matter... but thats in the past... right... :-)

well, I dont think thats the case here bubba, rather, shes connecting with it and
unfortunately as we all learn and have learned that our history has a very hard
past and of course anger plays into the picture alot of times,, I know where shes
coming from because I have been there, but of course coming on PF has taught
me many things. one to open up and see a little more.. and I am still learning ..

sometimes we see horrible things and those pictures play a big part of what our
minds can only focus in on.. instead of seeing that the younger generations are trying
to move on and forward into a new poland , its hard,, its hard to not look at the past
and not feel the feelings of anger .. and the problem is, we dont see enough of the
current Poland ( those of us who never been) and so its still a learning process..

:) we all have to just hang in there..

this is what i believe - polands future is with the new generation - not those from the communist era or those who have little connection with poland other than an ancestor - leave the anger, pain and suffering in the past, dont put it on the present becasue they will take it into the future



then people need to stop interferring and proecting their bitter memories and resentments, things have changed and people are trying to move on to a bright, prosperous future

- But to treat them differently because of their nationality...?

Honey, this is yet to be seen. Being born in the USA by Polish parents I guess I learned to speak up. They never wanted me to be a pawn, slave or dead due to corruption of power. While the ones under communism could not speak, the ones spead across this nation had a voice. God Bless Poland






Poland has been silenced and unable to speak of what really took place. My prayer for Poland is they do not just to forget the past.

We lost our country and family members. Poland's hero's from WW1 that fought to give Poland their freedom, fought again in WW2 to get it back, ended up being betrayed and in the end lost the very thing they were fighting for. My family's blood was spilled along with all the other Polish, plus they lost their country.

I am far from "old" and "bidder" is not the word I would use. I am "saddened" to see Poland pushed around. After what we went through and the cost to all of Poland how dare countries involved act so brazen. Poland proved how strong they are.

Germany setting up a display of how victimized they were.... Please, think of the cost Poland paid in lives.

It's not just Germany, lets look at Ukraine, 1932-33 lives all of a sudden means something, yet what about accountablity for the ones they took.

Shall I go to Russia, Pres. Putin could have done some damage control and showed the world he has a human heart by showing up at "Katyn" ceremony. Pres. Putin never did come and show respect for our dead men. Instead we read about Polish Pres. may have been drunk. Well you know what, I may have had a shot myself having the memories he has, wow he must have cared.

Carol, USA

- I don't recall being as crude towards Patrycja as Bubby towards Carol.

I called miranda once - jokingly - the c-word in the Random Abuse. Or perhaps you consider 'wench' a vulgar term, Bubby?

Actually, I like and respect miranda today.

Im not saying anything bad, rather explaining maybe this is why some do.. and its
really hard to get in touch with your ethnic background with so many obstacles in
the way.. no one wants anything bad to happen, I think they just want to understand
more. and there is alot of focus on the past in poland alone.. especially travel.

for instance,, the infamous Aushwitz. etc.. all the death camps that are a huge tourists
attraction.. its like, come see how we suffered, then enjoy some food and drink and
dance. this is advertised.. people I know that went to poland said I went to the death
camps.. I asked them why??

because that was part of the tour we went on as a group. POLAND has to stop
this.. all people know is what happened about the war.. not before it.. or rather
the larger focus is on that..


I didnt want to be stuck in 1939...

to me.. Poland means so much more.. its my familys homeland. a place where beauty
and culture were strong.. thats what the focus should be about.. not the camps.

if I ever visit.. or get to. I will never step foot into them.. its only giving into keeping
alive the horrible things that Hitler did.. and I wont give him that.. he died of his own
hand.. because he knew he would face something much bigger then he and he was
a coward who hid behind his people and filled their heads with lies and deciet.. thats
my most indepth feelings on it.

I think some people do that because they feel that if they don't pay homage to the past, it will be forgotten and then repeated.

But that's different than wallowing in pain and agony and refusing to let go.

What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between remembering the past and getting stuck in reliving it.

wars have been happening since the world began,, we lost family since the world
began, not to the extent and yes that time was supposed to be more civilized
but again, my above post says how I feel.. still stands. that also changed from how
I started to feel in the beginning.

Poland will have to move on. because People visit places that are more fun, and
exciting.. beaches, sand. etc.. their top tourist attraction shouldnt be a death camp
rather it should be positive.. get poland on her feet.

i hope you prove me wrong



people ive spoken to about it have expressed suprise that ive been to krakow but never visited auschwitz but like you, i have absolutely no desire to be reminded of the horrible things people do to each other



its not the words puzzy, its the upset that they cause and, so far, i dont think i have bullied or offended anyone off the forum

I think it is not a matter of "how" victimized people were. The center info you provided doesn't say anything that I can see proclaiming the quantity or quality of suffering against another group. That would be absurd. How can anyone say that one person's suffering is more or less meaningful than another person' suffering? Why would anyone want to do that? There should be be sanctity and respect for losses sustained to people everywhere....as this center proposes, rather than making it a contest.

I tell you this, I would not dare tell an Iraqi mother that the loss of her son was less than the loss of an American woman's son! I would not deny her a memorial to her son. We are all humans.



I can see where accepting accountability would help families of victims get closure, but if it is not forthcoming, you have to help yourself. You can forgive without forgetting. Forgiveness in my definition, means letting go of the anger and pain, so that it does not eat you up inside. It does not mean that you give your approval to what happened, nor that you have to forget it.




In my opinion, Putin doesn't care for his own people, much less for something that happened on Stalin's watch. Lets not forget when the Kursk submarine sank with all the loss of life, Putin was on vacation, and couldn't be bothered to put in an appearance. Carol, don't hold your breath waiting for apologies from others. You can find healing in spite of that! I hope that you find peace. :)

Then why do they keep him in power?
Carol

Do they have a choice?

Have you followed all the uproar after his victory at the polls a couple of weeks ago?
(Very few governments think that the Russia election was free and open and have suggested inquiries into the process...but really, who will force the issue)

And there was also the news article about the Russian chess player who was thrown into jail for speaking out against Putin (he had been at it for a while).

Things are very different for us in this part of the world. We rarely know the reality of what life is really like in other countries. I have even heard people say this about parts of Poland (that you need to be careful of what you say about government) but I don't know how much truth there is to it.

I think what we're comparing here is the suffering of a an attacker and that of his victim.

Think of it as feeling sorrow for either someone who was killed, or for his killer who broke his hand while killing his victim.

I don't think that is at all what we are comparing AT ALL......please go to Wildrover's comment in the other thread about the Center for displacement proposal in Berlin.
I'm talking about families (mostly women and children) that had to flee because they were on the wrong side of a border (any border) when their governments went to war. I can absolutely relate to the idea of having your life torn apart about by governments that don't really care about their people.

But if it helps you to only see countries in terms of their military...that's your choice!