Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish

WAKY, WAKY,

I prefer to do it this way.

Hey, I'm no expert on physics, but you must be. The physicists are certainly gonna change their mind because of Bjerknes and a few other nutcases just like the historians changed their mind because of David Irving regarding the Holocaust. You also have a book for us from The Flat Earth Society or the Creationists challenging the theory of evolution?

Here's a review of Bjerknes's book for those on this forum whose mind has not totally gone astray:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/17201

WAKY, WAKY,

I may not be as self-respecting as you, but I AM a professional. My diagnosis was a provisional one, based on the clearly expressed symptom of anti-Semitism. If you don't believe me, consult a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist where you are. And yes, a car problem can be provisionally diagnosed too by an experienced mechanic just by the description of the engine sound, smoke color, and fluids on the ground.

It is an established position in the field that racism (which includes anti-Semitism) is a form of mental illness because it represents a delusional disorder. Anyone that feels that Jews (or blacks, or Moslems, etc) are responsible for most problems in the world or their own communities exhibits a delusion which fits into the American Psychiatric Association category of delusional disorder, persecutory type ( DSM-IV). The fixed, paranoid, and erroneous belief of many bloggers and forum participants that all Jews are evil and conspiring to control the world clearly qualifies as a delusional disorder under the DSM-IV criteria.

Rigid and categorical or stereotyped thinking are common aspects of a variety of mental disorders. So are fear and paranoia. We can easily observe these tendencies in the expressions of racists and bigots.

But, listen, maybe all of us professionals in the mental health field are wrong. Maybe racism should not be called a disease of the mind but of the heart.

I quote you BBC news (independent and fair minded??), and you quote me an article written by:

John Stachel, director of the Center for Einstein Studies at Boston University, US, e-mail stachel@buphy.bu.edu.


Well there's 2 sides to every coin, as there are 2 sides to every story, and I have diagnosed that you have 2 sides to your personality. One side is arrogant and the other is very sheepish.



Well think about it...if i came to you and told you the earth was round 600 years ago then you would have accused me of coming from the "Round Earth Society".

By the way do you also believe that Columbus discovered the earth was round ? (Same way that Einstein 'discovered' Theory of Relativity ?

You learn something every day. When did this, PC, fashion come into being.

PILSUDSKI,

Your replies are growing increasingly incoherent. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. You seem to be unhealthily interested in Jewish names and seem to be displaying a delusion that if only Jews didn't hide behind Anglo, Polish, etc. names, their control would be loosened. See my reply to Wakeup about delusional disorders.

As for Pee Wee, let me repeat my previous claim that it doesn't matter what he calls himself or what his real name is. What is important is the fact that for a while, he was deservedly a big hit with kids and the critics of the entertainment industry. To masturbate in a darkened movie theater was foolish, and he's paid a heavy price, but for me and so many others, it's not a mortal sin. Look in the Bible. Does it say anywhere that you're going to hell for masturbating? However, I think the Bible might mention in a few places that you should love and forgive thy neighbor, meaning all the inhabitants of the planet.

I never claimed that Pee Wee was a good role model. He was a TV and movie character, who very rarely appeared as Paul Reubens. The world of entertainment or any other field is full of professionals who could do their job admirably but were not so admirable as private persons. Still, we judge their work separately from their private persona. Stravinsky was a musical genius, but he liked Mussolini and was an anti-Semite. Does that change my opinion of his compositional skills? Of course not - I can still enjoy his music, but I am disappointed in Stravinsky the man.

You sound more like a witch doctor!!! Maybe i am posessed by the devil and i should be locked up. I forgot, its your fileld or 'science' which adopted Electro Shock Therapy as a good treatment for dealing with mental illneses. What happened to the theories behind that good idea ?

Anyway back to the topic:


I am Anti-Zionist.



It is new for me too...But I am not surprised. Anything to lock up anyone who dares speak against Zionists.



Tell that to Israeli's occupying Palestine....



I forgive you BigLARRY, I really do.

You cannot add fuel to the debate so you have started psychoANALyzing the forum, but you know what.

I forgive you my blind sheep!!!

WROCLAW

It all started with a book you might have heard of - the Bible - written by Jewish apostles! And a Jewish guy named Jesus, who preached love and tolerance among all men. Little did they know that they would be accused of unfashionable political correctness 2,000 later.

A lot of Polish Catholics on this forum remind me of the saying about a girl who wanted to be screwed without penetration. Your version of Christianity certainly doesn't square with that of the Bible. You can't profess yourself to be good Catholics and to harbour anti-Jewish or anti-any nationality feelings, especially after the Papal 1965 Nostra Aetate proclamation that Jews are not responsible for the death of Christ and that their descendants are even less so. If you don't agree with that proclamation or with the Bible teachings, be a brave representative of your convictions and say that you disagree with them, that you agree with Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Himmler, Stalin, and Bin Laden. If you say that you are a good Catholic despite being a racist, then you have no idea about the basic values of the Judeo-Christian culture you live in and you are a hypocrite.

WAKY, WAKY,

The only weapon we have against unreason and delusions is reason and its most potent arm - science. I do psychoanalyze patients for a living, and it often works. It seems to me most of Poland has long been ready for a collective therapy.

If you like Jews or hate them is here irrelevant. :) The main point is to watch your words whenever you talk about this "nation" as very easyli you can be labeled anti-semite, no mater if you actually are one yourself or not. Even Steven Spielberg was called anti-semite after directing "Munich", and he's Jewish ffs... :)



Yes, love and forgive thy neighbor, but don’t spray him with thy seed in a darkened movie theater. :))

Sorry biglarry, I couldn't help it. :)

WAKY,

Anti-Zionism and self-professed love for the Palestinians are an old fig-leaf of modern anti-Semites. You don't fool me with that. You don't give a **** about the Palestinians - they're just a convenient stick to beat Jews on the head with so as to assuage your own guilt about your own anti-Semitism. In a way, you're displaying your ideological camp's defeat because bigotry is not an officially cherished virtue in the modern value system of the West the way it used to be, so you can't quite come out and say that you are anti-Jewish.

But, I guess that's why Poland is where it is today and why the Western Europe and America are where they are.

---

Matijasz,

Doesn't bother me. I'm not hung up on bodily functions like some of the forum are. If that is Pee Wee's only sin, I'm pretty sure his place in Heaven is secure. I'm not so sure about 90% of the participants here.

---

Matyjasz

Let's not play at semantics. And how can it be irrelevant whether you like or hate Jews? A lot of Americans think that Polish Americans are not very bright, and there is even a host of Polish jokes on the subject. Is that irrelevant to you? Even though I may laugh at some of the jokes, I know that it's a stereotype which doesn't have much basis in reality.

Anyone who would accuse Spielberg of being anti-Semitic is a pinhead. Very few might have. Are we going to change our view of reality or lose touch with it because of that?

Yeah, serves them right! Anti-semite bastards. ;)

As for the Israel-Palestinian conflict, do you think that the actions that were being taken by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people, were right? (you know, the whole check-points, the wall, police hours, etc things) What is your stance regarding this issue?


Personally I don't have anything against Jews, but lets face it, if I would criticize Israel’s actions against the Palestinian nation in public, I'm 100% sure that I would be labeled anti-semite. That's why it's irrelevant whether you like Jews or not. The main thing is to say only positive things about this "nation".



Imagine a Jewish stand-up comedian telling jokes about dumb pollacks. Nothing extraordinary or xenophobic to it, innit? Now imagine the same situation, but replace a jewish stand-up comedian with a Polish one, and polack jokes with jokes about Jews. Anti-semitism at it's best, innit? :)

absolutely outragous

Matyjasz

Well, sometimes you reap what you sow. And it was you that used the word 'bastards', not me.

I do not agree with the Israeli government's harsh policies towards Palestinian civilians and neither do many Israelis or non-Israeli Jews. I believe it was a major historical mistake for the Jews to go back to Palestine and live in the sea of natural enemies. However, let us not forget that the Palestinians and Arab governments in general have never "missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" in their own dealings with the Israelis. Arafat had a unique chance to close an extremely favorable peace deal with Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton, which would've led to the creation of the Palestinian state, but he chickened out because he was afraid that the hardliners in his own government would assassinate him for making peace with what they considered their mortal enemy.

Still, the main difference between Israelis and Arabs today is that Israelis would be perfectly willing to consider Arabs as equal human beings and partners worthy of respect if the Arabs showed an inkling of desire for cooperation. The Arab governments don't want to do it because the open Palestinian question serves as a release valve for the pent-up political and economic tensions in their own societies. Also, the expressions of Arab anti-Semitism in official newspapers have reached such a frenzy and have been cultivated for so long that most Arabs in the street think of Jews as subhuman. I am submitting an article from the best-known Egyptian daily, Al Akhbar. Remember, this is Egypt, with which Israel has a long-standing peace accord:

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP37502

Matyjasz

Here's the situation with Polish jokes. No American stand-up comedian will tell Polish jokes in public or jokes about any other nationality other than his own. That's simply not accepted. Now, Jewish comedians are allowed to tell jokes about Jews, Polish about Poles, and so on down the line. It's a convention that serves everybody's sensibilities well. However, privately, people will tell jokes about various nationalities regardless. It's always been like that, and it always will be. Something tells me that Jewish jokes (especially those of the Auschwitz type) are much more cruel than the Polish ones. I can asure you that the Poles are very rarely the butt of a joke these days.

I also qualified my statement that the prejudice against Poles is a stereotype. I have yet to hear an equivalent sentiment about prejudice towards Jews from you or others in this forum.



Symptomatically, everyone jumped on Pee Wee for masturbating but no one on Stravinsky for loving Mussolini. Doesn't that speak volumes about this forum participants?



Nobody's had the guts to tackle this either. Most of the responses dance around the margins (the lunatic fringe?) but never take the important issues raised head-on.

Gday Larry,

Ive read your posts with some interest and lately some alarm. As to your challenge thrown down to agree that prejudices against the Jews are stereotypical, I do agree. I have many WW2 stories from my Polish dad re his experiences with the Jews, and none were told with more warmth than the day he witnessed a Jewish doctor being flanked by a ring of protective Wehrmacht soldiers (one of whom the Dr saved) when the SS came for the good Dr one day in Warsaw; or of sadness when he told me of his friend, a young Jewish boy, whose black hair turned grey after he was lined up against a wall for mock execution. My father is not Jewish. He also had some bad things to say which I won't repeat. Potentially inflammatory words mean little when the person who says them does so in the faceless comfort of a chair behind a computer screen.

As to your suggestion that the forum participants, or 99% of them, are in essence bigoted morons, or the lunatic fringe, I really must object. Saying things like that aint going to endear you to those who read it.

You see the problem you now face is that you have engaged in a metaphysical debate. There is no correct answer and no one will come to any concensus. Inflammatory words help nothing, nor do insinuations about the intellect of the forum participants, nor do purported diagnoses of psychiatric illnesses. Indeed, is it really ethical of you to hold yourself out as a mental health professional and engage in this conduct - I think not.

On a lighter note, was it really wise to put Corey Haim in with those other credible actors? ;-)

Regards, Dan

Bad things about Polish Jews? You have to be more specific here.
You see, my father was Jewish, and he spent 1944 and part of 45 in Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen. He was the first to admit that some German guards saved his life in the camps. However, I'm sorry to say that he didn't have any kind words for the Poles or Ukranians that he came in contact with, inmates or guards. They were invariably rabidly anti-Semitic. Now, I'm trying to strike some balance here by saying that it is a well-known fact that some Poles harbored Jews during the war and that many were not rabidly anti-Semitic but were unable to do anything. Still, the fact remains ( and this forum proves it) that anti-Semitism is a national disease in Poland. Claude Lanzman effectively proved it with SHOAH, especially in the scenes where the villagers are finally admitting that Jews bear the eternal guilt as Christ-killers and in another village, where the peasants relate the fate of their former neighbors with some glee and amusement.



The purpose of my participation in any forum is not to become popular but to express my opinions and present some facts, however unpopular they may be. That's the price one has to pay sometimes. If the participants are half-way civil and informed and do not display overt bigotry, I'll treat them with kid gloves, like I'm treating you. However, if they are from the lunatic fringe, like the guy who's accusing Einstein of plagiarism or the guy who sees a sinister plot in every Jewish name, then I make no bones about using strong language and expressing contempt.



How can a debate about anti-Semitism be called metaphysical? That's one of the central problems of history and is central proof of any nation's maturity as to how it positions itself on that issue or about the mistreatment of any other minority, not just Jews. It has to do with the loss of lives of countless millions throughout history and the suffering of countless people because of irrational, prejudices, accusations and fears. And my friend, that issue is solvable and has been solved in the civilized world but not yet fully in Poland.

nor do purported diagnoses of psychiatric illnesses. Indeed, is it really ethical of you to hold yourself out as a mental health professional and engage in this conduct - I think not.
I am participating in the forum as a private individual, not as a psychopathologist. However, that doesn't prohibit me from using professional knowledge in the assessment of some of the views expressed. I do repeat that I stand behind a previous post that states that any kind of racism is a type of mental illness because it's underlying cause is persecutory delusions. That's state of the art established opinion in the field. It's always uncomfortable to hear the truth about one's psychic shortcomings because they undermine one's identity and one's good opinion of themselves, but one can always seek treatment. We don't use shock therapy any more, and we don't lock people up (I guess someone was unduly influenced by "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest".).


As for Corey Haim, well, as I said before about Pee Wee, if that is your only undeserved entry from the lists I submitted, I'll take him out.


This refers to my post on page 17 about Jesus, the Bible, and the Papal proclamation Nostra Aetate. I quoted it, but the moderator erased it.

--
There's no need to quote yourself (and many times). Admin

Thanks for your response Larry,

Perhaps "bad" is a bit harsh - I'll replace that with "negative". I gave my reason why in the sentence that followed. The upshot really is that in my opinion we can't judge the behaviours of those that did what they had to do to survive some 60 years ago. To borrow from Norman Davies, it would be unjust to transpose modern sensibilities and mores when making judgments on behaviours that occurred at a time when death, degradation and terror were the order of the day and clearly motivated the behaviours at the time.

As to metaphysics, I dont think the issue of Anti Semitism ergo Anti Polonism being a bad thing is metaphysical. What I submit as being metaphysical is the contention that Poland and Polish people are Anti Semites. Regretably, I think you have (inadvertantly I hope) fallen into it again:


Sadly, what seems to be missing from the discussion is this (and this is the way I choose to honour the memory of those who fell in Poland in WW2): 6 million Polish were killed, not 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million "ethnic" Poles.

Quibbling about the ethnicity/religion of those who perished does no honour to the dead. If there existed tension and dissension in their lifetimes, surely we can attempt to be inclusive now. My apologies to any I may offend who feel that the separateness should be perpetuated even in death.

Sorry mate, but I really had to respond to this,

.... Still, the fact remains ( and this forum proves it) that anti-Semitism is a national disease in Poland... (quote).

Let me start by saying my respects and admiration to your father for surviving. I'd like to know the context in which the rabid anti semitism took place. Now, I'm not saying this is your father's situation but in my life I've learnt a lot about the importance of giving the context when saying something terrible happened or is happening. For example (true story):

My dad, about 15 years ago, swore at an elderly German man, who was the father of the wife of a family friend, and ejected him from his premises - sounds bad hey. How could he have done that?

Let's look at the context - turns out the elderly German gentleman was a sergeant in the SS. Turns out he was a participant in the Warsaw uprising in 1944, which was where my granfather perished as a combatant, and where my father rotted with his mum for several months. Turns out he was drunk and in conversation with my father started boasting about the expolits of the SS in Warsaw during that period.

Context is everything. What my father did to the elderly German gentleman was technically wrong and abhorrent, but in relaising and accounting for the circumstances in which that behavior was precipitated, we can take the first steps toward an understanding that there are shades of grey and allegations dont necessarily coalesce with truth. With respect Larry, sweeping assertions, particularly negative ones about a country as a whole, do little to prove an argument and in fact diminish the credibility of any argument from the same author that came before or are still to come. Regards Dan

Jews this Jews that ...

It isnt Polands Problem it is problem of USA (or blesing) and Plaestinians (for them Jews are rather plague).

but Poland ... Jews ? it isnt our problem ... we dont have Jewish Lobby, we dont have problems with Jewish miniority. Iran Israel ... it isnt our problem ...

BTW I like movies made by Jews ...

HEAR HEAR!!!!



IT IS NOT A NATIONAL DISEASE...IT IS A TIMELESS AND GLOBAL DISEASE.



MAKE UP YOUR MIND(S)....!!!

The problem with this kind of thinking is that you're generalizing, just as racists and anti-Semites generalize. As someone knowledgeable about people's psychological make-up, you should know that perceptions are often distorted under stressful situations. The Germans in Auschwitz (and I know this because I've delved into the subject a bit) didn't on the whole have to be physically cruel to the inmates - they got other inmates to do most of their dirty work for them. Still, it wasn't the Poles or Ukrainians who organized the camps.
The Polish underground had an organization, Żegota, specifically aimed at helping Jews (AFAIK the only of its kind in occupied Europe). Hardly a sign of rabid anti-Semitism. Jews fought alongside AK troops in the Warsaw Uprising - I dare say they would not have if they saw the AK as their enemy.


Anti-Semitism is a problem in Poland, as much as it is anywhere else. The only difference is that political correctness has not made very big inroads into society here, and people usually talk about their feelings and fears more openly than in the West. I'm sure you know what I mean - like white boys never saying the n-word unless they are in their own company: they are no less racist than anyone else, just don't come out and say so in public.
Lanzmann's film showed back-woods villagers, who may have seen a camera for the first time in their lives, talking about Christ-killers, and you use that as an argument for inborn Polish anti-Semitism? Get real.

Dont get lost in hypocrisy,you were doing so well......


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz a terminally long and ponderous film shot donkeys years ago amongst peasants,lets interview red necks in the southern states 30 years ago and see how enlightened they are re black rights shall we.......your losing credibility buddy.


Who do you think the ghetto police were,Martians?

Stop with the 'Jesus is Jewish' nonsense!...You are drinking to much vodka with your lox
& bagels or matzo & gefilte fish!...Where in the New Testament does it say 'Jesus, the
Son of God & Son of Man was a Jew...he preached love and tolerance, especially towards
Jews, since they have been so unjustly persecuted'...Jesus called the Pharisees, who the Encyclopedia Judaica says are the founders of modern Rabbinical Judaism '...liars,
hypocrites, and sons of their father, the devil'...
Now, I am getting tired of this discussion, I must admit...I have been close friends with many Jewish people for many, many years, and have had good business dealings with them , and even two Jewish wives!...but my current anger with the Yiddin stems from the fact that they have controlled US foreign policy for at LEAST 20 years, have been instrumental in wrecking our industrial base here, and, from compelling circumstantial evidence, seem to have been a major player in the 9-11 event...and to put the icing on the cake, they have a lockdown on the US media, in effect censoring any news about
their shenanigans...wasn't this the same situation in the Wiemar Republic in Germany
after WWII?...I don't want to see a repeat of that 'form of hell'...if you want a 'Jewish'
perspective on some of this, try this website : URL...this site belongs to Dr.Henry Makow of Toronto, and, altough I don't agree with all his positions,he gives a balanced view of this problem, with interesting historical background.
And one last thing: as another gentleman said: the Yiddin are a big problem for America
right now, not for Poland...very, very true...and the Zionist Yiddin in Palestine?...they have made Palestine a hell-on-earth for those native peoples.URL

Jesus called the Pharisees, who the Encyclopedia Judaica says are the founders of modern Rabbinical Judaism '...liars,
hypocrites, and sons of their father, the devil'...

Where is tha passage?
Couldn't spot it...
Cheers

Even if I agree with this, the fact remains that the Poles of today, where death, degradation and terror are not the order of the day, exhibit similar behaviors, and, mind you, not the poor peasants but obviously individuals with some education. If politicians are legally allowed to Jew-bait and accuse opponents of having Jewish roots even if they're not Jewish, what does that say about the Polish political and social culture and mindset. It's like saying, "Don't vote for Walesa or Kwasniewski because they are Antichrists. The ultimate irony is that neither of these gentlemen appear to have Jewish origins. It seems to me that you are trying too hard to relativize and excuse things that bear no relativization just because you happen to be of Polish extraction. I, as a Jew, have no qualms about condemning any criminal actions or bigotry by individual Jews or the Israeli government. The basis of modern society is the individual (not a member of a tribe), who bears full responsibility for his actions. That's an American and cosmopolitan concept, which is still alien to many Europeans, whose thinking is controlled by the notions of nation, blood, the sacred native ground, and similar atavisms.


I'm not aware that anyone has quibbled about the ethnicity of the dead. The Russians lost a couple of million in the Nazi camps, the Poles lost even more - that's not the issue here at all, and that's what's so infuritaing about debates like this - not understanding or pretending not to understand the difference between the causes of Jewish deaths and those of others. There was no Final Solution for the Russians and the Poles. They were allowed to survive as nations but only as slaves for the Aryan nation. The total extermination of Jews was one of the underpinnings of the Nazi state ideology and was the natural outcome of hundreds of years of official blaming of the Jews for all the ills of the world. It is not surprising then that so many were the 'willing executioners' and that so many today are still negative or ambivalent about Jews.
What I'm arguing for is not less sympathy for the dead Poles or Russians but more understanding and sympathy for the dead Jews and more condemnation of the causes of their perishment, as tall an order as that may appear.


Context is not everything. What your paragraph implies is that somehow individual or collective victims of the Holocaust may have deserved their fate. I can't ask my father what the context was because he is dead, but I think it would've been scurrilous to do so. No matter how imperfect some individual Jews may have been that perished as part of the Final Solution, none of them deserved what happened to them. This was concluded at the Nuremberg Trials and confirmed by countless scholarly works by Jews and non-Jews since. It is a closed chapter for most civilized, well-meaning individuals except for those who are still on the wrong side of history.


And then some people complain when I'm talking about the lunatic fringe?!



I don't get the hypocrisy part. The 1st statement is a statement of fact. If you have expert information to contradict it, go ahead. The second is an inference based on fact. You may disagree with it or say it's an invalid inference, but that's quite different from hypocrisy.


Yes, and you seem to be one of its prouder sufferers.

This is because you have never opened a Bible in your life OR if you have, you are either
unobservant or lying...read the Gospel of John, Chapter 8, all of it.



The term 'Final Solution' was an invention of the Allies...what you are referring to was the topic of discussion at the Wansee Conference, presided over by Heydrich, who was himself Jewish...I believe the 'position paper' of this conference was entitled 'The Complete Solution to the Jewish Problem in the Eastern Territories', and it referred to a
transfer of Eastern Jews out of the Reich, preferably to Palestine...the Zionists worked with the Nazis on this 'Complete Solution'...this was called the 'Transfer Agreement'...
Eichmann, who also was also Jewish, worked with Heydrich & the Zionists on this...one of the reasons the Israelis captured/executed Eichmann was because of his Jewish background...what I have just stated might surprise you, but it goes to show that history
can take many ironic or tragic twists...Nazism/Zionism are both racist philosophies that
are a dead end.



Well, the Jewish comedian Sarah Silverman, has said, as part of her show, 'If Jesus was
here, I'd kill Him again!'...this is Jesus Christ she is talking about...and the Yiddin said, 'She's hilarious, and she's pretty, with a nice ass to boot!'...now, imagine, if a Polish comedian said, 'Hey, all those Jews from WWII, they just got what was coming!'...
what would be the reaction?

Again, you're generalizing. Though I've heard anti-Semitic remarks more than once in Poland, I've heard very strong reactions against these kinds of things, too. I'm not convinced that deep down Poles are in any way more anti-Semitic than others in Europe - though those who are do seem to feel a bit more at ease with their convictions.
Don't judge a whole group of people by how many loonies post garbage on a forum anonymously - I would say that if it wasn't for moderator censorship, many American and British forums would have just as many of them. Covering up a problem doesn't make it better, though.


Are you serious? Is someone's death less significant just because he wasn't "targeted" due to his ethnic background? Is the victim any less dead? Did his family suffer any less? That kind of thinking really burns me up.
The Roma were targeted as a group just as much as the Jews, and even more efficiently (a larger percentage of the pre-war Roma population died during the war than of Jews). Does that mean that the Jews' suffering is somehow reduced or made less relevant?

And joepilsudski - unless that's your real name, I would appeal to you to use another nick - while you are free to hold any views you like, associating them with Piłsudski is distasteful at best.

Distasteful to who?...You?...Well, Cyg, sometimes the truth has a strange taste at first...
Anyway, it is only my viewpoint, and free speech is still legal, in fact, it is enshrined in
the US Bill of Rights... sometimes one has to listen to commentary that one does not agree with...but maybe, in the EU, free spech is restricted, or, speech deemed 'distasteful' is at least discouraged...as to the first point, no suffering is irrelevant to the person who suffers, or, in a larger sense, to the person causing the suffering...it is just that we have been led to believe that some suffering, experienced by certain people, is a 'special' case...Why hasn't Roma suffering been publicized, and why doesn't Hollywood make movies about it?

Well, the lunatic fringe is at it again.

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction...I would suggest this book to those who
are interested in WWII history...you can download it:'Hitler: Founder of the State of Israel'...it is by Hennecke Kardle...I tried to create a link, but for some reason the URL
hyper link wasn't working..so you can Google the book title and get a downloadable PDF file...just remember the famous saying, '...in war, the first victim is truth.'

no problem. I have difficulty in understanding anti-semitism when such a small race of people have been responsible for such a large number of great scientists, authors and artists and have contributed a disproportionate amount to the world.
I suppose as an Englishman its something I can relate to. :)

But was Stravinsky's love towards Mussolini more of a physical or platonic one? It's very important you know. ;))




Personally, I've seen so many posts saying that as a Pole I certainly "sucked anti-semitism with my mothers milk" that I really don't care about it anymore. If you really want to label all poles as anti-semites, than so be it. I can live with that.

But if you really want to know the truth, than listen to your fellow Jew, the main rabbi of Poland, Michael Schudrich, who said:

"Rozpowszechnione na świecie stereotypy są całkowicie nieprawdziwe. Kraje kojarzone z antysemityzmem, czyli niestety również Polska, w rzeczywistości wcale takie nie są. Antysemickie zachowania występują natomiast na liberalnym, wolnym Zachodzie."

"[Those] distributed stereotypes are totally untrue. Countries that are associated with anti-semitism, which unfortunately includes also Poland, are not anti-semte in reality. Whereas anti-semitic behaviors are present in liberal, free west."

End of my rant.

To Biglarry, Ned, whoever.

I started off reading this thread a bit astonished by the anti-semitic posters in this thread who as one no doubt slightly embarrassed Pole felt the need to point out were mostly not Polish.

At first I agreed with you, but boy did you cross a line. In fact cross it so far that I as an irregular non-polish contributor to this forum felt the need to respond in this quite possibly over long rant.




So you are saying that Poland falls behind Western Europe because they are anti-semites?????????? Not because post WW2 after giving the fourth biggest contribution of all countries to the defeat of the Nazis, they wound up, more so than the Germans, actually losing the war and instead of democracy and the Marshall plan ended up with Communism and selling their coal to the Soviets for 10% of the market value??? Man you better read some history books.





So you’re saying the Poles deserved what they copped? Just out of interest how would you react if someone used the same phrase about Jews during the holocaust. It would be horrifically anti-semitic right???? Like Ishtathu (who also sledged the anti-semites in this thread) said, you are a hypocrite.

Now given that you seem to believe that the Poles are nothing more than a bunch of murderous anti-semites (and don’t deny that you strongly implying this especially with this quote




~~)

I feel the need to mention a book I have just completed reading. The book is Secret City by an author called Gunnar Paulsson. It is about Jews hiding in Warsaw during WW2.

Now this book contains enough incidences of anti-semitic instances even atrocities to enable you to keep your smug “I am so superior to Poles” attitude. But the conclusions the author draws, I am tipping you won’t like.

He after careful examination of hundreds of memoirs written by Jews and other sources comes to the conclusion that in Warsaw alone somewhere between 70 to 90 thousand Poles were risking their lives to protect Jews during WW2. Against this he claims that between 3 to 4 thousand Poles in Warsaw were basically “Sczmalcownik” who would look for Jews not normally to denounce them but to blackmail them into paying money for not doing so. And the other 1 million or so Polish residents of Warsaw??? Well shock, horror, gasp they acted like most normal people, whether anti-semitic or not, in their situation would. They would neither risk their and their families lives to save a Jew but nor if they saw someone they suspected of being a Jew in the street would they denounce them.

Now the numbers I have quoted above seem to be straight out of some Polish propaganda site. Except there are two problems with dismissing them that way. One is that the author, Gunnar Paulsson, is Jewish. This is only a very minor obstacle to dismissing these figures especially as members of his family were saved by Polish catholics so he might be excused for a pro Polish bias. But the main obstacle to dismissing the figures is that he researched all sources for years and that when I search on the internet I cannot find one serious academic attempting to deride the what seem to be very controversial figures he has come up with. Maybe some academic does seriously challenge his figures. However I have got to say he has keep his challenges on an obscure part of the internet.

Now undoubtedly in the horrible circumstances that existed in Poland during WW2, there were many Poles that acted in a shameful way towards the Jews. However I cannot help but seriously question your apparent belief that all Poles are somehow infused with some murderous anti-semitic virus. Or that they deserved to put up with Stalinism – especially after their huge contribution to the defeat of Nazism.

I have decided to cut my rant at this point but believe me I could add heaps more............

I tried to make this point much earlier in this thread. The real Pilsudski had a Jewish wife and was very against anti-semitism. I have got to say to say that some of his remarks are the equivalent to a poster calling himself "Mahatma Gandhi" demanding war.