The Polish language - it's bloody hard!

I might agree, Darius, that there are instances in which someone, take your daughter, is so highly gifted that they can in fact translate into a second language, not their bilingual 'second' mother tongue, such as I with German.

Teaching though, is another matter entirely. Perhaps the reason why almost every non-native English speaker has such a lifelong accent in English, is that their first English instructor, without exception, was probably a native of their mother country, not the UK, US or Canada. Here in the States, to be a state-certified German, Spanish or French teacher, native fluency is required. Sufficient pull however, could smooth the way in any employment situation, so naturally, some non-native French, German or Spanish instructors at the pre-college level do slip through the cracks! -:)

I might also add here that therefore the standards of junior and high-school foreign language instruction in the US are on a higher level than most English study in Europe, as our insistance on native language quality assurance is frequently a matter of law! Not every Tom, Dick and Harry who imagines themselves supremely talented in languages, despite degrees and studies, is allowed to, for my part, even capable, of teaching a second language on all but the most rudimentary level!

The real reason might be elsewhere. Perfect pronunciation becomes increasingly hard to achieve with age. It is a part of the so called "linguistic competence" and generally accepted border line is somewhere between 12 and 14 years of age (give or take in respect to individual circumstances).

The non native teachers you have in mind were often people who started learning their second language late in their lives - after they turned 14. Many though, had native teachers of English in Polish universities. The language of instruction was actually English and (at least in my case) a vast majority of teachers were Americans and Brits. Poles were usually junior faculty members.

The curriculum included pretty extensive courses in phonology and phonetics - 2 years in all. Without going into details - it was very thorough. Various students achieved various results. Some maintained very thick accents to this day, others are considered native speakers by ... true native speakers of English.


One of my English phonetics teachers was a Pole (University of Wroclaw). Since I remember, he had been always thought of by Americans and Brits as a native speaker of English. He now leads English Language Centre and neither Cambridge University nor British Council found any problems with him being more than capable of fulfilling his mandate in regards to some of the top lever English Language certifications. All his staff are Poles.

Again, there will continue to be those gifted exceptions. They are however, NOT the rule, I can assure you!

When I was first starting out years ago as a translator/simultaneous interpreter, I was of course asked my 'native' tongue(s). I replied quite naturally, English and German. I was then put through a ferocious (or 'grueling', if you wish LOL) battery of verbal as well as written tests, arrogant chap as I was perceived, to be able to translate INTO the source, rather than the target, language!! Shame on me for lying!, was the thinking there.

When I passed with flying colors, I was ruefully permitted to slowly join the ranks of the office staff......only because I was able to successfully prove my bilingualism. When I then asked innocently if I might translate a short, but vital document INTO Swedish, a language for which I couldn't prove mother tongue abilities, the boss sneered "Please, Mr. Pajdo, don't make us laugh!!"

Agreed, but those gifted exceptions had exactly the same teachers. Wouldn't that point towards the student then?

Btw. the fella I mentioned was taught English by a Pole. A know a few people (while I studied things other than English philology) who were taught by a native British lady. Terrible results. She was a great teacher and all. But they slacked.

Eventually though, after you have reached a certain level of proficiency, there is no substitute for actually living in a foreign country. I remember when I first arrived in NYC - I could debate superiority of Ben Jonson over Shakespeare, and the much too obvious metaphors used by Cotton Mather, but... I didn't know how to buy a loaf of bread in a corner store. I also had a big problem in understanding what a vacuum cleaner had to to with the plot of the movie I watched - I had no idea it was a commercial :)

Darius, the 'unofficial' language of NYC has been broken English for more decades than I care to admit! I often don't understand the corner grocer either, and English IS my first language, more or less. Unfortunately for me, my Pashto, Punjabi and Bangla are rather rusty.-:)-:) LOL

My last time in the UK, mid-nineties or something, I remember a sign over a London dry-cleaner "BROKEN ENGLISH SPOKEN PERFECTLY!" I still have a snapshot of it. I just had to go inside and enquire as to how fluent the chap running the shop was in 'broken English'. Not only didn't he get my question, his quite native-born Anglo-Brit shop assistant was highly unamused and so much as told me to go to blazes.

Funny, eh? (he-he)

In other words, the Anglophone world should do nothing all day but churn out huge masses of English teachers for the entire world? And the rest of us poor disadvantaged souls should just sit around and wait to be taught?

"Perfect" English is not the goal of TEFL, and never was, especially as there is no such thing outside the realm of Plato's ideals.
The ability to speak, understand speech, write, and read - the ability to COMMUNICATE effectively in a foreign tongue - is what counts here.
I have personally taught English using Oxford-published materials including tapes with dialogues recorded by English speakers from Canada, the States, Australia, the East End of London, the West Indies... The idea is that the student should be able to understand all these different varieties of English, and even if their own accent is not RP or General American - that they should speak clearly enough to be understood. Slight vagaries of accent are not the end of the world, nor should they be. I have had students afraid to open their mouths because some jobsworth teacher in their past had repeatedly shamed them for not conforming strictly to the pronunciation patterns of English. These people will never really speak English, the psychological damage done to them was too great. :-(

"Perfect English is not the goal......"

Guess what, Magda, I couldn't agree with you more!!! So why then, at least in my extensive experience both at home and abroad, do soooo many foreign tourists as well as English-speaking natives of European countries, even from Spain, whose inhabitants are notoriously poor in learning foreign languages, adamantly, often arrogantly, resist even the most unobtrusive of corrections whenever I've endeavored to 'level the playing field'?? Is it really always a guest/host relationship or something else I'm missing?

The response I've usually gotten has been "Oh, my English is good enough, I think! But your ___________ needs a lot of work!"

A more helpful answer would be: "Oh, I know my English will never be as good as yours, but I enjoy practicing my skills. Appreciate when you correct me sometimes. We're always grateful when foreigners speak our language well ...!" or words to that effect.


Indeed, what are we all doing in this forum, but honing our respective languages?

Some good points here.

Lets not forget that English is the global language and in many instances when it is spoken it will be non-native speakers speaking English with non-native speakers. Both of which will speak English in their own way and neither of which will speak 'perfect English'.

It's not about speaking English perfectly. It's about communication, as has quite rightly been pointed out.

..and what then is 'communication' other than the fluent, at the same time, accurate, transfer of ideas? Nobody's even speaking about 'perfection'!!! -:)

If person A from Albania can't effectively understand person B from Lithuania, is this real 'communication', or more accurately, 'approximation'?

Think of all that's being missed by the former definitions of communication, the more the very standards of language, in this case English language, become eroded?!

Maybe they just resent being made to feel as if they were in the classroom? Unless of course this actually WAS a classroom situation, of course. Otherwise, I'd just let them be. To each their own. If someone doesn't actually ask to be corrected, why hound them? As long as I understand what they mean, I have absolutely no problem with someone's less-than-perfect English or whatever other language.

I haven't either. Why then do many foreign native speakers treat US in our own home turf as though it were a classroom?? Doesn't seem quite equitable now, does it?

I'm fine with people not knowing....so long as they realize it and are curious about knowing more, be it sports scores, philology or sex!!

Communication doesn't demand fluency or accuracy. It just needs to be sufficient for meaning to be understood. The degree to which you need to be competent in a language depends on the complexity of the message you are trying to communicate.



Approximation may well be sufficient to communicate your message :)



Eroded or evolving?



How peole react to uninvited correction depends on individual and cultural factors. I would be extremely sensative when offering uninvited corrections

But you have to accept they might not be curious. I am totally uninterested in sport, for example.



Don't quite follow your drift there, I'm afraid.
Do you mean tourists walk around NY or Houston and force the natives to explain the finer points of English grammar to them, or what? ;-)

...I mean simply, that we Yanks, educated as many of us are, are for whatever reason not encouraged to correct, say, French tourists visiting or travelling here in the States. The latter, on the other hand, take the greatest pride, often in belittling in the guise of 'correcting' our conserted efforts to speak good French. They may mangle our pronounciation so that it's no longer recognizable to it closest living realtives, we though, must hook every cedilla and sharpen every accent aigu.

Just attempting to even the score, that's all.

In addition, there are many out there who are seemingly immune to 'organic learning', that is learning by example. Either they psychologically resist the correct model, be it vocabulary, grammar, spelling whatnot, or they are just plain incapable of learning. I say then, "Face it!" I speak your language better than you speak mine! Give it a rest!" (....but without SAYING the last sentence, of course!)


Is language which is 'evolving' in a downward spiral, more like 'devolving', really doing nothing other than 'eroding'??

LOL - I know what you mean :)

But of course the answer is 'great, lets speak my language!'

Oh that way you mean. Well, the easiest and most effective way out is to simply tell them you're not interested in their corrections. Unless, of course, you are. I don't think trying to "even the score" would prove constructive in any way. Some people want to learn by example, others don't. Some are overzealous in their linguistic crusading, some couldn't care less. Getting worked up over it won't help ;-)
People are a stubborn bunch and the more you try to change them for their own good, the more they resist.

Whose 'my' are 'we' referring to here? LOL


Magda, wreszcie zgadzam się z twoim zdaniem: Człowiek niełatwy rozumieć!! -:)

Are you asking for a correction of that? I'm on the verge of actually correcting you here, but I shall abstain until further notice ;-)

....If one is needed, yes, certainly!

Dla poprawienia znajdujemy się tutaj! = That's what we're here for! = Dazu sind wir da!

Conversely, should you require/request correction (in English not in Polish LOL!!!!!!!), I too shall abstain until further notice.

My, if only all such multi-cultural exchanges could be this pleasant.

I teach multi-cultural studies as well as translation in New York.

Did you mean to say:

Człowieka niełatwo zrozumieć - or
Człowiekowi niełatwo zrozumieć?

;-)

Człowieka niełatwo zrozumieć = Der Mensch ist kaum zu verstehen. = People are hard to figure.

Tak jest, Magdo! --:)

I once lived in South Africa and we used "fortnight" as well. South African English is very much like British English.

that would be 'practising', since it is a verb ...

(sorry, but you really are so extraordinarily arrogant that it had to be pointed out ... if only for poor old Magda, whom you have given a very rough ride!)

oh, unless that bastardization of English which is 'American' has seen fit to remove the (essential) distinction between the noun 'practice' and verb 'practise' ... ? do enlighten me ; )

(and on my lack of capital letters ... it is a very conscious choice)

British and American, Pipeczko, have variant spellings, as I'm sure you're well aware. 'organize' vs. 'organise', 'practice'/'practise' etc...

Magda, a "rough ride"??? (Chuckle! -:) I hardly think so, considering the "arrogant" treatment we well-intentioned Yanks get abroad, every time we endeavor to point out a thing or two regarding English grammar, often so gleefully mutilated by others.

Wouldn't hurt us Americans either to instill a little more language pride into ourselves. If you send out pollution into the air, you'll get the same foul air right back in your face, kind of like blowing smoke at someone. Now that's not nice, is it??

"Arrogant"? I've been called a lot worse, thank you! Why yesterday, someone called me a Republican!

hi friends
i want to learn pollish can somebody help me

...and pray, were have I (metaphorically of course) "sent out pollution into the air"? I asked some questions, voiced some opinions, and got told off. That's how I see it. The questions remained unanswered.

Oj, Magdo, Magdo!! Bardzo mi przykro. I wasn't suggesting that you were sending out pollution. You misunderstood me. If anything, I was/am blaming the slovenliness of US education which trains its pupils so poorly in their mother language, not to even mention a foreign language, that the rest of the planet merrily follows our lead, unquestioningly mimicking everything we do or say, the way we dress (or undress, as the case may be) etc., with no sound yardstick of aethetic judgement, i.e. if it's from Hollywood, it's got to be good! -:)--:) LOL

Perhaps the Poles could stand a little more 'Hollyłódź', and a little less of the former.

OK, it just sounded that way when I was reading your post. I am not feeling my best today, and that's putting it mildly.

No czujesz się lepiej, Magdo! Teraz wszystko porządku a wciągle porozmawiamy o
język polski, o 'trudny język polski'. --:) LOL

Never take what I post personally. It's all done for effect. Actually, I rather enjoy the exchange. Imagine, sparing with a real Pole. The idea is quite appealing. don't you think?

Do siego razu!

I dont think Polish is very difficult,compared with Sanskrit.