Polish people and racism.

they can't learn german or they don't learn? maybe they don't wish to learn really. maybe you guys treat them such badly that they don't want to hear german language anymore.(or maybe they don't want to hear because of it's too ugly:). and ask a linguist if you want then you can learn turkish is one of the hardest languages to learn. by the way yes you are right german should be talked with only horses please.

Why do you always try to distort facts?You try to show arabic inventions as being turkish and always give a false story and a false explanation.Guys,you should know.Turks have an average IQ of 91.Is it possible to con Europeans who have an IQ of 105?Very difficult.
Well,let's see.Yes,Mozart had problem with german language and all composers had till Wagner because all the operas were written in italian at that time which was considered more delicate,had a long tradition in opera and was thought to be the only language suitable for this kind of music.
To distort this and tell that Mozart prefered the turkish language for aesthetic reasons is grotesque.After all do you know any opera work written to be sang in turkish?
Mozart simply saw some ottoman musicians playing a rhythm in the palace of Habsburg,liked the rhythm and wrote one composition,the turkish march.That's all.He did not play baglama or write cifteteli.

maybe....maybe...maybe....I think they are just to stupid.

Classes with mostly turks are low level in every study...they tend to underachieve everywhere...do you want to spend your life blaming somebody else?
German parents take their children out of those classes and try to put them into german-mostly classes for better learning.

And it's not the teachers!

I thought you were a dog, G... A boy is still better than a dog, you should feel honoured, really... :)


With all due respect...erm...i'm afraid we're not that smart ;)
Maybe 100, maximum (average, of course).

I do not think the german teachers put some extra efforts to help the underachieving turkish children.Anyway.However children from other minorities do very well in the german educational system.

blaming somebody else? me or you? what's that, in every opportunity saying turks are stupid they have lower iq etc.. etc.. even it has relationship with the subject or not. we talk about how nice turkish sounds above german, you tell me turks are stupid their children stupid...

And that shows that all this "those bad, turk hating, xenophobic germans...it's ALL their fault!" fells flat!

Also asked about their likes and dislikes Germans show always that they are not hostile to the foreigner per se...every study shows that we only have a problem with ONE group...guess who!



If that isn't a sure sign of stupidity then I don't know...

It's more a matter of education than intelligence.

There are schools in Berlin whith nearly 100 percent turkish/arab youth...the teacher really do their best.
But what do you do for youth who still barely speak the language, are disinterested, do not regularly visit the school and are often highly agressive and disrespectful to their teacher?

The Rütli school in Neukölln had to be closed because the teachers got on strike, they feared for their lifes!
Can you imagine that with german pupils????



I don't think so!
We have children of the fourth generation here in Berlin which are even worse than the first generation...uneducatable!

I never said this, I didn't even suggest that. But Mozart DID avoid using German in his operas and he DID write a opera in Turkish. "The Abduction from the Seraglio"

And he did so because he disliked German???

No, I never said that either. He did it for its appropriateness for the piece. I wasn't trying to bismirch German in my comment, but simply promote the Turkish language and Turkish culture as being valid in Europe, which for some reason around here is a controversial thing to say. I didn't want this thread to devolve into "which language is better." Listen, I want to get out of this argument if it's going to be: "German sucks"
"No it doesn't"
"Yeah it does, it sounds like a cat barfing"
"Well, Polish sounds like someone sneezing"
"No way"
"Yes way"

Okay...:):):)

So your theory is that they must be too stupid to learn as every other "normal" German students ?
If their parents don't educate them well, then THEY are the ones to blame, not the kids.
It's a problem of culture, nothing to do with being smart or not.

Excuse me....but if it's part of the "culture" to be ignorant to the education of their offspring...well...screw that culture!

I once saw a doku about teaching in such a problem class...I couldn't stand it to see the teacher in the front preaching to a group of desinterested youth who didn't listen, had nothing on their tables, talked loudly in turk with themselves and frankly couldn't be arsed to listen to this poor sod called teacher.
They even had still their jackets on...
Do you know that teacher get regularly beaten up by their students???
Unthinkable with Germans...

Of course....these kids will get barely an education, most won't get a certificate at all, unable to communicate in german...but when they don't get work who's fault will that be? The Germans, of course!
That is sick man!

You have to realize that the Turks feel superior to anyone.They feel deep contempt for the Westerners.

I'm not defending these kids, i'd rather defend their teachers, but i just don't see the point of saying that they are nothing more than stupid asses, and you must understand that if these kids act like that in classes today, why would their kids be different. It IS a matter of education, culture. The problem is not the kids, it's the parents. We have the same kind of troubles in France too.


Really ? That's news to me, i've never heard that before...
I don't want to say you're a liar or something, but being a Greek (you are, right ?), can you be objective when talking about Turkey ?...history facts :)


The Westerners in general feel sometimes superior too...

Just totally depends on the person. There are rasist in every country.
When my parents and later grandparents visited me in Paris (used ot live there for some time). My parents really like those all diffrent people, no discimination at all.
And then the biggest surpise was when my grandparents came. My grandfather just fall in love with black girls. Becasue they ara so well build ~(he is kinda fat too :P) and they look like they eat well, and he wanted me to find a black girl (eventually i did). MY grandmother liked chinese/japanese people, because their skin is so nice she said.
My grandparents were over 70 back then. And stil not rasist at all.

Then a year ago i went with my black girlfriend to Poland. We spend 3 months there! Travelled across Poland. First we visited my hometown and village where my grandparents live. Its small village in south east poland, just 20 kilometres from the borderd with Ukraine, so according to fellow poles it suppose to be very rasist. And it wasnt at all! Of course people looked at us, but they just did, because it was something unusuall to see. WHen i bad dreadlocks everyone looked at me too.We were speaking Spanish to each other, and as i dont look very typicaly polish, people were free to talk about us. And in 3 months we havent heard anything bad!
In fact i heard loads of possitive things such as: ' grzesiu, why dont you find a blakc girl for yourself' it was a mom to his like 30-something years old son :P.

Bet there are rasists in Poland but we just didnt happen to come accross any...
As im a male and my gf is black we have it better than blakc male + white gf.
I just noticed that if the girl is really cute then noone really is rasist to her :P and in fact i would say that the most rasist people we came accross were black people.

Agreed!

But...it's as I said already the third or fourth generation...their parents and their grand parents were already born here and got to school here.
And NOTHING has changed...that is not normal!
Should we just accept it, just shrug and say: "Well..it's their culture!" ???

What do you advise?

I just think education met her limit if there is no will to become educated...

PS: And ignoring a good school education, ignoring the importance of learning the language of the host country, ignoring the need of good, respectful behaviour IS stupid!

actually it's sad but because of greek education system, not all but many greeks hate turks unconditionally. yes i can't say greeks are our favourite nation but if turks dislike greeks for one, then greeks do it for ten. and of course we don't have superior feeling. all nations get proud of theirselves some bit, it's the nationalism. but surely we are not excessive like greeks supposes us. turks are hospitable people and don't judge people with races. it's the truth.

And as i said :

These kids will probably become parents...if they educate their kids the way they were themselves educated, things won't change.


Yeah, i agree, not normal, but somewhat logical, unfortunately.


No, i will never accept it, but i prefer to be sure about whose fault it really is.


Educate their parents, make them understand how the society works (not that simple, i know).


They don't ignore all of that, they just don't realize. I guess that most of them don't live in beautiful houses with gardens in flowers. I guess their parents have crappy works that take them most of their time (it means less time to educate their kids) and that pay nuts.
It's a difficult problem, i know that finding solutions isn't easy either.

It's a vicious circle.

The parents got nothing from education, so they will never go anywhere in life.
They tell their kids that education won't do anything for them, so the kids follow the example.

It's a vicious circle.

Who are we to say such things? I think some people are quite happy and satisfied with a simple life? Face it, losers, winners, bad, good, ugly, beautiful, sad, happy and so on. It's all needed..

Besides, I've seen a lot of well educated people who behaved like little children at some point, so I really don't believe that education makes a person smarter. I think culture, wisdom and most of all insights gained from personal experience have more to with it?



I do agree with you on this one, and I do think children should recieve as much education as they can take. I also would like to see free education for everyone, because in most cases, it's unfortunately still a matter of money and perhaps even class..

I don't believe a career is a succesful measurement for health or happiness anyway. Making a career for yourself doesn't even have that much to do with intelligence, but more with timing, decisions, social networking, friends or in some cases, just luck..

Not always so.

It is almost a stereotype, confirmed by countless immigrant stories where parents do all they can to help kids get education better than they could get. All that so that the kids' lives are easier. (Not that education always ensures that)

You,as French can be objective when talking about Turkey?...history facts.French have been the biggest Turkophiles I know.Even from the 16th century there was mutual agreement between Sulejman and Ludwig.French fought as allies of Ottoman Empire in Crimea in 1854.In 1920 French helped Kemal providing ammunition to fight the Greek army even though officially they were allies with Greeks(in Entente).They gave all territories they had gained by Sevres treaty to Turkey.(French PM said:We were forced to sign the treaty,we were sad after it).And still today they support the entrance of Turkey into EU.
For me this turkophilia is unexplained and not justified at all.What common does France have with Turkey?Maybe you view them as exotic I do not know.

You should ask all neighbouring balkan nations what Turkey and Turks are like.Ask Serbs,Greeks,Bulgarians,Croatians.You will get very interesting answers.Also ask the ones who had limited turkish occupation like Hungarians and Ukrainians.What they really think.
If all this does not agree with the german experience illustrated by Bratwurst Boy,then you are free to be turkophile.

france team ,,, just look at the Midfielderse
Hatem Ben Arfa »Abou Diaby »Alou Diarra »Lassana Diarra »Claude Makelele »Florent Malouda »Rio Antonio Mavuba »Samir Nasri »Franck Ribéry »Jérôme Rothen »Jérémy Toulalan »Patrick Vieira.
2 real french only.
the german look german for me (but not Kuranyi)

I'm sorry i wasn't born then :))
My point of view is not made on history facts.


I'm not sure about this one... There are many debates about the entrance of Turkey in the EU and i'd say that there are not more pros than cons...


Are we that Turkophile ?... I think we are Turkophile as much as we are Hellenophile ;)


Hum...what ?
All of them were born and raised in France, they ARE French. Many of these black players are actually from the French Antilles (French West Indies as they say in the dictionary).
One "real" French, what does that mean ?! If you mean Whites, then i see at least 3 players among those you gave me : Ribéry, Rothen and Toulalan.


HAHA, yeah, sure ! Gomez, Trochowski, Podolski, Klose, Kuranyi... So German ! ;))

i m not talking about the colour just look the names ,
german have 4 (2 polish , one hispanic and a turkish)
but in france is to many ,
good for france !!!!!!!!
:)

France is known for being a land of immigration ;)

So do you think we should not allow these super players to play for France because of their skin color or names ? I don't think so :)


Of course it is, we are world vice-champion, and among the favourites to win the Euro in one month (yoohoo, can't wait !!)

;)

French teams, 1959 and 2008. Global warming :))