Polish – Russian relation, from the angle of Serbs

plus, we are proud about that

;)


Why??? Let him to speak. Let he satisfy his necessity to humiliates ;)

I don`t want to believe that he is normalrussian. Maybe its Putin himself, who comes to visit Polishforums.com in order to study democracy [if so, i apologize, of course, forgive to my lunacy Mr President of our brotherly power]

Hm, I always thought (and learned in college) that the Pan-Slavic movement was a unilateral invention of the Russians basically intended to rob territory from Ottoman Turkey and hereby counting on Slavic sentiments in the Balkans...However, it proved more than once that the Russian love for the Balkan-countries was not always answered. This goes, if I am right, especially in the case of Bulgaria right after they became an independent state in 1878 (might be 1877, I'm not really sure about that). For certain I want to assume that Pan-Slavic ressentiments don't play a big role in nowadays' politics (or at least, they should not).

M-G (Dawaij, or something)

You are misinformed.Russians helped balkan countries to become independant after their wars against Turks.In 1878 Bulgaria became independant due to pressure of russian army which was in front of Istanbul.
The Ottomans had robbed terittory from Serbia,Greece,Bulgaria.Somebody needs to explain the love of the West towards Ottomans.

I don't agree to that. The Serbians liberated themselves in 1821 from the Ottomans and there are documents stating that Russia could not give a da*n about their so-called Slav-brothers in the Balkans. Russia fought a war with Ottoman Turkey in 1877 for access to the Bosporus and free tradelines through that water, just like so many times before. The fact that Bulgaria was created was from Pan-Slavic idealism viewpoint to give the poor Slav brothers a home, but in fact the main purpose was to create an ally and a buffer state. Nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately for the Russians, this did not work out - there was a general contempt in Sofija for the Russian Empire, which basically resulted (amongst other reasons) in Bulgaria joining sides with the Central Powers in 1914 and again in 1940 with Nazi-Germany against the Russians. Except some idealists in St Petersburg, nobody really cared what happened on the Balkans. The attitude of the West was no better: they had virtually no interest nor sympathy for what happened in what they called "the backwaters of Europe" with barbaric ppl (the king of Montenegro forbid somewhere in the midst of the 19th century the habit of cutting off the heads of defeated enemies and putting them on stakes around his castle as it would not really look nice to the foreign journalist and visitors coming to his country). Moreover, Ottoman Turkey was not really loved in the West, but accepted more as an empire to curb the hordes of barbaric ppl living in the Balkans - somebody to hold them down, so Britain and France didn't have to take care of it. Also, Turkey served as a perfect counterpart for Russia as nobody in the West really liked the Russian Empire. Example of the lack of caring about the Balkans in the West is shown in the first decade of the 20th Century: an English politician stated on an informal meeting that the air in Europe would be much and much cleaner, were it possible to cut Serbia simply off of Europe and push it into the ocean. Of course, this statement was never officially confirmed.

M-G (Got a Masters' in The History Of Eastern European International Relations with a focus on Serbia - Insecurity as feeding ground for Nationalism)

PS: in addition to that, the only friend the Russian Empire had on her Western Side before 1900 was actually Germany and to lesser extent Austria-Hungary -Three King Bond - and it is only due to the lack of political skills of William the Second of Germany that Russia was kind of forced to a Liaison with their former enemies Britain and France.

So you call Serbs,Bulgarian and Greek people barbarian?And the Turks civilized?

No, I just portrayed the way the ppl who then lived looked upon the ppl of the Balkans - I never call anybody barbarian, until proven differently :) Good that you mention the Greek, as they form a somewhat different category in this mess: The Greek were very well loved in the West as they stood for the creators of Western Civilisation. In 1811 they were backed by the British to fight for independence, support none of the other countries on the Balkans ever got from the West.

M-G

absolutely wrong

Pan-Slavism originated from Central Europe (medieval time), from last core (last political center) of Sarmatia, from Poland. Poland is even today, in Pan-Slavic circles very influential and important but, let`s say that Polish Pan-Slavists are disabled from elite which want to see Poland in NATO at all costs.


In Russia Pan-Slavism, as public movement didn`t exist before 1856. Therefore, that doesn`t mean that Russians didn`t posses feelings that could be described as Pan-Slavic. Without Russian support, South Slavs would probably even today suffer under Turkish occupation. Then, without struggle and liberation of South Slavs (particularly Serbs), their historic mission for liberty of Western Slavs couldn`t been accomplished (Racowie, Gavrilo Princip, not to mentions great Serbian battles against Turkish intruders, from Kosovo 1389 to the Kumanovo 1912- where Turkish military might in Europe was crushed and finished).

On the other side, Western Slavs played major role (medieval age) for initial support to South Slavs (Jan Sobieski/Poles, from Viena to Varna), while Russians still needed to fight for survivor against Mongol hordes.


In Union or without Union. Slavs always were mutually very connected, to say parts of one body. Body which was cut on little pieces from hostile foreigners and from our own failures.


my condolences to all Slavs because of that. Our mutual solidarity is the only thing that can save us, secure prosperity to our children.

Come on, give me a break, I don't need this sentimental "everything we Slavs do originated in some dark past"-thing while there are documents that Pan-Slavism was born in St Petersburg...With agents in Belgrade.

If you want a discussion about these issues, pls stick to historical facts instead of arguments based on folklore, otherwise I'm just wasting my time here.

M-G (This sentimental folklore has already caused enough trouble in the past)

you aren`t serious. You even don`t inspire me to annihilate you virtually thru discussion

Give it a try - I have no problem wiping all those ressentiments, how vivid they might be, just under the rug.

M-G

Then, open some especial thread dedicated to Pan-Slavism and that in general discussion section.

Words Pan-Slavism must be included in title of thread

Those are my conditions for discussion on topic.

If you survive Admin (if Mr. approve that thread), you won`t survive (virtually) me for sure. In any case you`ll lose. ;)

I see you do not know me yet :) Anyway, I won't do that until after the weekend as I am going home and I have to prepare for a date, so Pan-Slavism is going into the fridge for a few days...I bid you a nice weekend - just one question: are you by any chance Serbian?

M-G

to the core, to the very core of my being

Serb, servant of Sarmatia

dont apologize to the jerk either way.. no one should be saying those things just to
satisfy their ego.. thats all its about.. which means in no way would they be willing
to work with other countries when they have such a opinion,, its a selfish
statement made by a selfish person..

Personally I dont think that the people of Russia are like this. I think they are curious
as to what is outside their relm. some may not have had the chance to learn or do this.

Yes,the public supported the Greeks but the governments in Vienna 1815 under Metternich did not,did they?



In 1811 the British made Greeks revolt in Corfu in order to invade the island and take it from Napoleon.Greeks became independant in 1829 when the Russians came outside Instanbul and the united fleet of Russia,England and France defeated the Egyptian allies of Ottomans in Navarone.



I would like to see what this politician had to say after 1914 when the Serbs fought for the interests of Great Britain.



In Dardanelles UK faced the real Ottoman Turkey who English supported for a century.When the Turks killed dozens of thousands of english soldiers,maybe some would conclude the former policy was a mistake or not?

It is well known fact that Polish-Russian-Serbian relations depend even on Spanish wishes. It is simple truth that Slavs must (as, if) obey to all kind of non-Slavic interests

please, give us more about Spain. Help us to understand how we Slavs can satisfy Spanish needs. What more we can do? How long we need more to serve? :) ;)

espana is funny :)

Tell us about Torquemada and the fact that you guys kicked my great- great- great- great-grandfather out of Portugal :)

M-G