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The Netherlands: run-down districts happy with Polish immigrants

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posts: 60

♂

Edited by: Moderator Dec 11, 10, 11:10 #1

Sources (in Dutch):

http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2399100/polen-geven-probleemwijken-duwtje -in-rug.html
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2686/Binnenland/article/detail/107085 2/2010/12/10/Probleemwijken-blij-met-Poolse-immigranten.dhtml

Polish immigrants, living in the Netherlands for a longer period of time, help to improve run-down residential areas in several municipalities in the Netherlands. Unfortunately, this isn't yet the case everywhere. This came out of survey among several local authorities on Friday.

Now this is not about the fact whether the Poles are being "classified" as Eastern Europeans (I guess some people tend to call everything "eastern" which is on the other side of the former iron curtain), but about the fact that here we have an article, which is very favourable about the Poles and their influence on Dutch society. There is still a lot to do (like combatting exploitation), but it is obvious that, in general, Dutch society is being helped tremendously by the influx of Polish people (with a job, obviously).

I guess Dutch society shouldn't make the mistake thinking that Polish immigrants will probably return back to Poland anyway and therefore don't warrant a comprehensive policy, like offering language and citizenship courses (when you register yourself as a resident of a municipality, these citizenship courses -although not compulsory- are subsidized; 10 x half a day including exams for 200 euro).

Any thoughts ... ?

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Edited by: zetigrek Dec 11, 10, 11:38 #2
half an hour and still no reply. It seems that positives doesn't intrest PF users ;) I think we will have to wait until AJ visit this threat ;)

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 11:41 #3
zetigrek: It seems that positives doesn't intrest PF users I guess you are right. If there is only one negative comment (how ever slight or insignificant), some on here go all berzerk. But here we have something positive about Poles abroad and it seems there is a collective radio silence. A pity.

BolleThreads: 3 Posts: 226 Joined: Apr 29, 10 ♂	Edited by: Bolle Dec 11, 10, 12:10 #4
Stu, maybe you could post a similar report on N. African / middle eastern immigrants in the netherlands for comparative purposes...

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Edited by: Stu Dec 11, 10, 12:19 #5

Bolle:

maybe you could post a similar report

Well ... it's not really a report, but an article in a newspaper. From what I know, but this is just from the top of my head, the same does not apply for those you mentioned, except for the female part. Usually, women have and persue higher education than the men.

Which again goes to show that, according to me, the best foreign development projects we can do, is educating women. It has much better results than giving money, food aid or whatever.

On a side note: countries where extremism is rampant, are also those countries where women's rights are non- or barely existent.

nunczkaThreads: 17 Posts: 624 Joined: Sep 13, 08 ♂	Edited by: nunczka Dec 11, 10, 12:19 #6
Bolle: Stu, maybe you could post a similar report on N. African / middle eastern immigrants in the netherlands for comparative purposes... Yes, i would love for someone to post that.. It should be a real eye opener.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,478 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Dec 11, 10, 12:27 #7
zetigrek: half an hour and still no reply. It seems that positives doesn't intrest PF users ;) Thats not it, its Holland replace that with Ireland, England, Scotland or USA then it would be a different story. Theres only what two Dutch regular members here.

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 12:28 #8
Wroclaw Boy: Theres only what two Dutch regular members here. Does it matter when there is a favourable story about Poles abroad?

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 13:05 #9
zetigrek: I think we will have to wait until AJ visit this threat ;) Yeah, have fun in Holland people! :)

Lyzko	Dec 11, 10, 14:33 #10
Curious as to whether or not the Poles who eventually integrate into Dutch society have difficulty with the language. Perhaps that's not even an issue. Somehow though, I can scarcely fathom the Poles speaking in their rudimentary English with the Hollanders (or vice-versa, for that matter). It'd be rather much like the blind leading the blind, or at least, half-blind, to my way of thinking-:)

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 14:52 #11
Lyzko: Curious as to whether or not the Poles who eventually integrate into Dutch society have difficulty with the language. Most do, but it's the same way around! :)

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 15:05 #12

Almost the same, one would wager LOL

My experiences with the Netherlandic people suggest strongly that the majority wouldn't be caught dead trying to break their tongues over Polish, insisting instead that the poor Poles do their level best to learn Dutch. If all else fails, then naturally, English as the tongue of last resort-:)))

In this way (nothing original here on my part!!), the Dutch are quite similar to the Danes, the Swedes and the Norwegians. The Finns, Faeroese and Icelanders being a somewhat separate category. They too have received considerable immigration from Eastern Europe and appear to handling it far better than the Irish, for instance, and the Rumanian migrant workers.

♂

Dec 11, 10, 15:16 #13

Lyzko:

My experiences with the Netherlandic people suggest strongly that the majority wouldn't be caught dead trying to break their tongues over Polish, insisting instead that the poor Poles do their level best to learn Dutch.

The poor Polish? Sorry, but if *they* wish to live here, then *they* should do their best to learn Dutch. (Just like *I* would do *my* best to learn Polish if I ever migrated to Poland!) And yes, I can pronounce the odd word. I suppose I'm still nowhere close to being good enough to have entire conversations in Polish, but you know, I probably have other things to do aswell!

;)

♂

Dec 11, 10, 15:16 #14

Lyzko:

Somehow though, I can scarcely fathom the Poles speaking in their rudimentary English with the Hollanders (or vice-versa, for that matter)

Not all Poles only speak rudimentary English and neither do the Dutch. Then again ... even if Poles don't speak the lingo, they don't really need it in day-to-day life, do they? They can still go to a supermarket and get the things they need, a truck doesn't speak a language, neither does an apple, or asparagus and when you are a builder or a welder you don't need the language either.. And bar codes and bar code scanners do all the work for you in distribution centres.

Those Poles who work in big offices are usually more educated (and thus speak English pretty well) and don't even need Dutch in their work. I've met a Polish woman who works for ABNAMRO (a bank) in Amsterdam and she doesn't need to speak Dutch in her office. In the Netherlands there even is a site for foreign job seekers (www.undutchables.nl). There they have a number of vacancies in the Netherlands for people who don't speak the language (for example http://www.undutchables.nl/jobs/detail/?id=8178 - only English and native Polish).

I guess there are enough opportunities.

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 15:24 #15
Stu: I guess there are enough opportunities. If you're a foreigner. article: "In sommige Limburgse gemeentes bijvoorbeeld daalt de aanwas van bevolking, omdat jongeren wegtrekken. Als die Polen komen, dan komen er ook kinderen terug in die wijken en gemeenten." And why do you think young people from Holland are moving elsewhere? Because there are ''enough'' opportunities? ;)

♂

Dec 11, 10, 15:34 #16

Stu:

Dutch society is being helped tremendously by the influx of Polish people (with a job, obviously).

I agree, in my opinion many European and Scandinavian countries have greatly benefitted from the Polish immigration, I did not meet one young Polish person in the Uk who didn't work hard, pay tax and contribute to society. The irony was that many of the Poles I met in London where doing manual laboring, waitressing, security and lower paid work, whilst possessing language skills and university degrees. The difficulty for many Poles was that they weren't confident enough to go for the better paid professions, this is changing now.

A good example, a friend of ours who had a first from Gdansk Polytechnic in Physics, he moved to London and spent 4 years as a painter and decorator. Eventually a friend of his suggested he applied for a job on a Survey ship. So I sat down with him and wrote his CV, highlighting his academic achievements, he got the job. Now he spends 2 months on and 2 months of at sea surveying and mapping the ocean floor, he earns around 60,000 Euro a year.

So what is the point, the point is that Polish people outside of Poland are hard workers, they just often under value themselves.

I would like to say that in my experience the Polish work ethic displayed by expatriate Poles is not mirrored in their homeland.

It isn't hard to explain.
If you stay in Poland and work as a branch bank manager maybe you can earn 5000zl a month.

Whilst if you work as a builder in the UK you can earn 10000zl a month

So obviously the incentive to work hard is much stronger abroad than it is at home.

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 15:39 #17
A J: And why do you think young people from Holland are moving elsewhere? Because there are ''enough'' opportunities? Because they are trying to find a job in more populated areas. Because these small municipalities have nothing going for them (nowhere to go out for example). And to be fair ... (and exceptions aside), you won't find a lot of people wanting to do the remaining jobs.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 15:43 #18
Maybe: the point is that Polish people outside of Poland are hard workers, they just often under value themselves Much like any group of "outsiders", preference is often given to the locals, at the expense of equally or better qualified "outsiders". It is hard to get that first bit of "local" experience related to your field under your belt to move on to the better / higher level jobs.

Lyzko	Dec 11, 10, 15:51 #19
As far as Poles who "don't need to know the local lingo", sure, there are always the so-called 'Melkert baantjes' or 'McJobs' as they're know in the States, but who really wants that? Surely not upwardly mobile immigrants with small wallets but big dreams-!! I'm inclined to agree with A J on this point. I just purused the original Dutch website material posted. Highly informative-:))

♂

Dec 11, 10, 15:53 #20

Yes, Polish immigrants tend to keep their neighbourhood clean and in general Polish people are respectful to their host country. Most of them work instead of enjoying welfare benefits and only very few of them are criminal.

Compare this to the Morrocans and Black community and spot the huge differences.
1000 blacks or 1000 morrocans in a beautiful neighbourhood and in no time it will turn into a ghetto, even though they are hugged by social workers and are given nice houses and lots of money.

Polish workers need to live with 8 or more people in crappy houses and yet the only offense they commit is drinking too much.

I can't wait until 3rd world scum start packing their bags and move away because Holland is turning white again! :)

♂

Edited by: Stu Dec 11, 10, 15:58 #21

jarnowa:

jarnowa

I can't wait for scum like you to leave Wroclaw. You give the place a bad name.

Nowhere (and I mean absolutely nowhere) did I draw a comparison between Poles and other nationalities. My intention was to highlight the positive influence Polish people can have on a neighbourhood (so finally some good news as well).

But there you come again with your warped, stupid ideology about how bad blacks are. You're a such a stupid twat. It surprises me you didn't mention the fact that you can't get laid because the blacks have taken away your girls.

**** off, you jerk. If I were you I'd pray I never come across you when I am Wroclaw. You wouldn't like it, trust me.

Lyzko:

Melkert baantjes'

They don't exist anymore. And Poles wouldn't have been eligible for those anyway. They have normal jobs, for which in some circumstances employers can't find locals to do them. And as I said, I know for example a Polish woman working for a major bank, who doesn't need to speak the language either. Or the example from the website I posted.

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 16:04 #22
jarnowa: Polish immigrants tend to keep their neighbourhood clean You haven't seen Polish tram stops yet

Lyzko	Dec 11, 10, 16:05 #23
...such as teaching English to Dutch or Dutch to Foreigners, for instance?? Here, these positions readily go to foreigners, no longer exclusively to the native born LOL

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Dec 11, 10, 16:15 #24

Stu:

I can't wait for scum like you to leave Wroclaw. You give the place a bad name.

Nowhere (and I mean absolutely nowhere) did I draw a comparison between Poles and other nationalities. My intention was to highlight to positive influence Polish people can have on a neighbourhood (so finally some good news as well).

But there you come again with your warped, stupid ideology about how bad blacks are. You're a such a stupid twat. It surprises me you didn't mention the fact that you can't get laid because the blacks have taken away your girls.

**** off, you jerk. If I were you I'd pray I never come across you when I am Wroclaw. You wouldn't like it, trust me.

Threat number 3 by you is noticed, you brave Dutch internet "hero".

You better stop threathening buddy. Unlike your 3rd world friends in Holland, you can't get away with threathening someone in Poland.

I've lived 8-9 years in your sh#tty country, long enough to know exactly which groups are causing most problems in the Netherlands.

And the mentioned groups are undeniable the worst offenders, so if you for 1 minute would face the truth instead of talking PC crap again and again, you would understand why 10.000 Polish immigrants tend to improve a neighbourhood whereas mentioned groups tend to make things worse even if their numbers are much lower.

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 16:46 #25

Merely a point of information.

When I was first (and regrettably last!) in the Netherlands, i.e. Amsterdam, during the 80's, the talk had been about so-called 'black Dutch' people, referring to those from Surinam presently residing in Holland - as full native Dutch citizens!

What the bigots conveniently forgot is that, while not Caucasian, those black people from formerly Dutch colonies, were and are NOT 'Africans', 'Morrocans' or 'foreigners' in any sense, but one hundred percent Dutch, as are former emigres from Martinique in France considered 'French' (except by Le Pen and his cronies) or blacks are in America considered 'American'. These 'Surinaamse' speak Dutch as any white Dutchman and except for local slang/dialect, I see no difference between them and anyone else.

Therefore, Jarnowa, at least be accurate if you insist on being racist LOL

♂

Edited by: A J Dec 11, 10, 17:02 #26

Stu:

Because they are trying to find a job in more populated areas.

Trying would be the word here. I'll give you something to think about: My age group makes up only 3% to 4% of our population. (Indigenous population.) We have an unemployment rate of 5 to 7%. (I think you can do the math?) Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Polish people. I just think our government should be honest about a few things. (Like explotation and cheap labour.)

;)

jarnowa:

you would understand why 10.000 Polish immigrants tend to improve a neighbourhood whereas mentioned groups tend to make things worse even if their numbers are much lower.

They don't actually improve our neighbourhoods either, because this article completely fails to mention that most Polish people stay in Bungalow parks, and that most Polish people are only working here on a temporary basis, and that only the highly educated ones are trying to settle down here, because most of the working-class Polish people will find out that there's not much of a future for them here either. What this article also fails to mention, is that a lot of Dutch people aren't too happy about being a neighbour to ten or more Polish people in one house. (Oh, and isn't it funny how Dutch people aren't allowed to live with ten or more people in one house to share the rent, but temporary foreign workers all of a sudden, are??) No, there's definitely a not-so bright side to this whole story, but let me just tell you that you're still the misinformed Belgian racist that you were before. You're grossly overexaggarating a few things, of course conveniently, all in favour of ''white'' people.

But if the only offense that Polish people commit is drinking, then how do you explain the murders in my region? (We've had a few shootings and stabbings here, and the offenders were Polish, not Moroccan, sorry.)

;)

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 17:29 #27

Precisely, A J, right on point! It's the Theo van Goghs, the late Pym Fortuins, not to mention those soccer hooligan types who give Holland a bad name, not immigrants per se from any of the countries mentioned above.
Ironic too, that the white Europeans who complain, moan, whine about supposed hordes of little brown or slant-eyed people coming in and 'dirtying' their country (their words, mind you, not mine!!) befoul their own nest with their filthy bigotries. They're the 'dirty' ones, not necessarily the outcast foreigners whom they decry

♂

Edited by: jarnowa Dec 11, 10, 18:41 #28

zetigrek:

You haven't seen Polish tram stops yet

i live in Poland, so yes i've seen a few. ;)
in Holland, i've seen more smashed windows

Lyzko:

Merely a point of information.
When I was first (and regrettably last!) in the Netherlands, i.e. Amsterdam, during the 80's

so now we all know that you have a very good view of the situation in 2010. ;)

, the talk had been about so-called 'black Dutch' people, referring to those from Surinam presently residing in Holland - as full native Dutch citizens!

What the bigots conveniently forgot is that, while not Caucasian, those black people from formerly Dutch colonies, were and are NOT 'Africans', 'Morrocans' or 'foreigners' in any sense, but one hundred percent Dutch, as are former emigres from Martinique in France considered 'French' (except by Le Pen and his cronies) or blacks are in America considered 'American'. These 'Surinaamse' speak Dutch as any white Dutchman and except for local slang/dialect, I see no difference between them and anyone else.

Therefore, Jarnowa, at least be accurate if you insist on being racist LOL

I think it makes more sense to look to their personal characteristics than looking at their passports. If it's looking, talking, behaving like a camel from the Sahara, it doesn't convince me if his passport is saying that he is a horse instead. Maybe you can be fooled by a passport but not me! ;)

A J:

I've heard that many Poles are expected to stay, i don't watch Dutch news very often anymore but i've never heard that only the upper class is interested in staying.

What this article also fails to mention, is that a lot of Dutch people aren't too happy about being a neighbour to ten or more Polish people in one house. (Oh, and isn't it funny how Dutch people aren't allowed to live with ten or more people in one house to share the rent, but temporary foreign workers all of a sudden, are??) No, there's definitely a not-so bright side to this whole story, but let me just tell you that you're still the misinformed Belgian racist that you were before. You're grossly overexaggarating a few things, of course conveniently, all in favour of ''white'' people.

Of course nobody likes to have 10 loud neighbours. But you can't blame Polish people for being bad neighbours. If their housing conditions improve, i'm sure this "Polish" problem, which in fact is a housing problem quickly disappears.

Why? Because here in Poland, i don't have problems with loud neighbours. My friends haven't either.

And mind you, i live in a rundown Eastbloc flat that would have been demolished in Netherlands because of low quality. And although sometimes i see some shady people on the street and a bit of graffitti, in general even my communist area environment feels much safer than the average morrocan/black area in Holland.

Now look at the situation in Netherlands. The 3rd world immigrants got houses that would make many Polish people jealous (much more living space, well isolated, high speed internet etc.) and yet they turn it into some 3rd world ghetto (dealing drugs, vandalizing everything, intimidating and robbing young and old people on the street, claiming that the neighbourhood is theirs, spitting bus drivers in their faces for nothing).

So this little story shows again that the quality of neighbourhoods depends on the quality of the inhabitants. So yes, of course Polish immigrants are much more welcomed than others.

Anyone disagreeing this is invited to bring other arguments than "you filthy racist, how can you say this!" ;)

king polkakamonThreads: 1 Posts: 1,018 Joined: Dec 30, 09 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 18:44 #29
Polish immigrants are a gift here.I don't know why they leave them living in the black,paki neighborhoods.Thy should get an advance ASAP.

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 18:51 #30

Regrettably, Jarnowa, we're not speaking about horses and camels, but of people. Perhaps to call EVERY 'person'/'sentient being' a human being, is stretching things a might. I too have the normal distate for drug pushers, pimps and the like. Let's just not lump them into one category: FOREIGN!! Such would be an out and out lie. But you must come clean with the fact that some of your prior rhetoric is extremely suspect.

As far as my '80's perspective in 2010, as the French always say; 'Plus ca change..', (think you probably know the rest!)

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