The Netherlands: run-down districts happy with Polish immigrants

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 19:25 #31
Lyzko: 'Plus ca change..' I don't think he knows that, Lyzko. He comes from Antwerp (Flanders) and hasn't had the pleasure of a basic education. A pity, cause there are some really good schools in Belgium; I know, cause I have been on two of them. Lyzko: These 'Surinaamse jarnowa: behaving like a camel from the Sahara Surinam isn't in the Sahara ... which only proves my first point.

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 19:49 #32

Juist, Stu! Dat is maar precies, wat ik bedoel. Surinaam ligt niet in Afrika, vele domme mensen denken steeds, dat alles zwaart komt daaruit

Exactly Stu! That's precisely what I mean. Surinam is not in Africa (not even close!), yet ignorant people think that everything black must be from there.

Don't however let's judge a country by its educational quality (or the lack thereof). Former President Bush supposedly attended Yale, but didn't seem to do him much good. Stupid is, as stupid does LOL

♂

Edited by: A J Dec 11, 10, 19:54 #33

jarnowa:

in Holland, i've seen more smashed windows

Mostly smashed by frustrated Dutch people.

jarnowa:

I've heard that many Poles are expected to stay, i don't watch Dutch news very often anymore but i've never heard that only the upper class is interested in staying.

Ah, but there's a difference between being interested, and being *able* to stay. How do you think a Polish worker will pay his or her rent when he or she will no longer be allowed to share the rent with a dozen of co-workers? See, they can do that on a temporary basis, but if they want to settle down here they will have to register, like everybody else. (Which means no more advantages.)

;)

It's also very funny how you didn't have anything to say about the stabbings and shootings by Polish people in my region.

Have a good day Jarnowa.

Stu:

He comes from Antwerp (Flanders) and hasn't had the pleasure of a basic education.

Just ''Belgian'' is insulting enough.

xD

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 19:55 #34
Lyzko: Don't however let's judge a country by its educational quality I didn't ... I just commented on the fact that he didn't have the pleasure of attending a good school, which I said was is a pity cause there are several good ones in Belgium.

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Dec 11, 10, 20:09 #35

It must hurt that Polish immigrants turn out to be better immigrants than people from 3rd world countries. :D

And the weird thing is, the latter groups received (probably still receive) nice houses and welfare money when they arrive in Netherlands, whereas Polish immigrants live in much worse conditions. They don't get nice houses from government and the only money they get is hard-earned salary from their employers.

If you believe in ethnic equality, you would expect that Polish immigrant would cause more problems, because their conditions are much worse.

But unfortunately for you, the opposite is true. :)

Even politicians in Holland see that Polish immigrants can improve neighbourhoods that have been rundown by immigrants with other mentality.

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 20:18 #36

Since when does any country "turn out" immigrants?? Once again, they're not cattle for the auction block (then again, perhaps you and others think of them as slaves). Poor choice of words here! If you mean that immigrants who come from certain circumstances will behave differently from certain other groups, well, I suppose I'd have to concur. Yet, does anybody become an immigrant because they want to? Of course not. They usually have no bloody choice in the matter, be they Poles, Moroccans, whoever.

♂

Dec 11, 10, 20:44 #37

Lyzko:

Since when does any country "turn out" immigrants??

i'm not sure what you mean.
but if you replace this with "prove" or similar, maybe then you'll understand. ;)

Lyzko:

Poor choice of words here! If you mean that immigrants who come from certain circumstances will behave differently from certain other groups, well, I suppose I'd have to concur. Yet, does anybody become an immigrant because they want to? Of course not. They usually have no bloody choice in the matter, be they Poles, Moroccans, whoever.

Most of the people responsible for violence and stuff have grown up in Netherlands.
And those who come from difficult circumstances don't have any excuse to misbehave in the country that gave them the chance to start a new life in luxuary. Or do they?

Lyzko

Dec 11, 10, 21:06 #38

Jarnowiczku, jeszcze mnie nie rozumiesz! 'To turn out' to znaczy 'to produce', n.pr. we fabrykę maszynowie. Nie chciesz to powiedzieć, czyli, to znaczy 'Polska wysłała....' = Poland SENT out, ale nie "turned out", bo nie jest poprawnym angielskim.

Sorry again to be so pedantic, but your misunderstanding is linguistic, nothing else. You didn't get my post, therefore I had to translate a little-:)

I also don't see your final point.

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Dec 11, 10, 21:37 #39

Jarnowa, you are a simple Vlaams Blok nazi. The simple Filip Dewinter line. Have you ever visited the Polish military cemetary in Lommel? (horror, some of the people there are Jews). I bet you have not.
Some of the soldiers there - Polish First Armoured Division - have in their dustridden tanks liberated my Flemish village.
(By the way I guess you are counting down to Morel's death?)
Ge zijt ne complete idioot.

enderThreads: 13 Posts: 528 Joined: Nov 7, 09 ♂	Edited by: ender Dec 11, 10, 21:56 #40
Lyzko: Since when does any country "turn out" immigrants?? Don't you think you got bigger problems on your? Lyzko: Curious as to whether or not the Poles

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 22:08 #41
Lyzko: Jarnowiczku, jeszcze mnie nie rozumiesz! 'To turn out' to znaczy 'to produce', n.pr. we fabrykę maszynowie. Nie chciesz to powiedzieć, czyli, to znaczy 'Polska wysłała....' = Poland SENT out, ale nie "turned out", bo nie jest poprawnym angielskim. You must write it in French not Polish.

♀

Dec 12, 10, 09:14 #42

Overcrowding, mass immigration, mass sectoral outsourcing, scarce resources (where jobs usually HAVE to be located in the country), jobs made redundant by technologies, non protectionist government = undermined local employment, unemployment and associated social repercussions, poverty and debilitated progress. The future now looks very different and the social landscape is unrecognisable.

How do you maintain empires from this???

It simmers, then it breaks.

Blame is usually directed at the outsiders but of course the causes are many in this catastrophe.

borenbasThreads: - Posts: 1 Joined: Dec 12, 10 ♂	Dec 12, 10, 11:24 #43
Run-down districts in Holland are losing economic activities. So it is a stupid idea of a local Dutch politcian to move Poles move to these areas borenbas

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 12, 10, 11:36 #44
borenbas: So it is a stupid idea of a local Dutch politcian to move Poles move to these areas Would you care to explain, cause I don't understand what you mean. In Charlois you see Polish shops, Polish hairdressers, so fact of the matter is that they bring in new economic activitites.

♂

Edited by: jarnowa Dec 12, 10, 14:19 #45

Lyzko:

Lyzko Yesterday, 21:06 / #38
Jarnowiczku, jeszcze mnie nie rozumiesz! 'To turn out' to znaczy 'to produce', n.pr. we fabrykę maszynowie.

Nie chciesz to powiedzieć, czyli, to znaczy 'Polska wysłała....' = Poland SENT out, ale nie "turned out", bo nie jest poprawnym angielskim.

Sorry again to be so pedantic, but your misunderstanding is linguistic, nothing else. You didn't get my post, therefore I had to translate a little-:)

rozumiem. But 'producing' is only 1 meaning of "turn out". I try to say it in simple English: when Polish immigrants started to come to Netherlands, some people feared that they would behave the same as many Moroccan, Turkish and black immigrants. But Polish people proved to be different, in a positive way. Not as criminal, lazy and unwilling to adapt like many other immigrants.

I also don't see your final point.

You give people an excuse to misbehave, because they come from difficult circumstances.
But the most criminal groups in Netherlands (Morrocans, Turks and blacks from former Dutch colonies) don't have a background of war, persecution or extreme poverty. And even if they have, their new country is very hospitable and generous to them, they get everything they want for free. So even for Somali's and Iraqi's there's no excuse to do harm to anyone.

sobieski:

Jarnowa, you are a simple Vlaams Blok nazi. The simple Filip Dewinter line. Have you ever visited the Polish military cemetary in Lommel? (horror, some of the people there are Jews). I bet you have not.
Some of the soldiers there - Polish First Armoured Division - have in their dustridden tanks liberated my Flemish village.
(By the way I guess you are counting down to Morel's death?)
Ge zijt ne complete idioot.

You are the idiot, assuming that i hate anything that's not Flemish. Do you think i would stay in a country whose people i hate?

And why should i count down to Morel's death?

♂

Dec 12, 10, 14:28 #46

jarnowa:

some people feared that they would behave the same

Simply not true. Initially people were afraid for their jobs. Then they sometimes noticed that they couldn't park their cars in front of their own homes anymore, because -as AJ rightly said- they tended to stay with ten people (and eight cars) in a one-family, terraced house. Or they noticed that alcohol abuse was rampant. No-one ever was afraid that they would behave the same. Try to get your facts right.

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Dec 12, 10, 15:08 #47

Stu:

Simply not true. Initially people were afraid for their jobs. Then they sometimes noticed that they couldn't park their cars in front of their own homes anymore, because -as AJ rightly said- they tended to stay with ten people (and eight cars) in a one-family, terraced house. Or they noticed that alcohol abuse was rampant. No-one ever was afraid that they would behave the same. Try to get your facts right.

You are a "ethnic equality" boy.

So for people like you it's very difficult to explain why some ethnic groups in Netherlands enjoy excellent living conditions and don't have to work as hard for it (if they work at all) as other groups, yet top all the bad statistics, whereas the group in the worst conditions (Poles) do pretty well.

How do you explain this?

♂

Edited by: Stu Dec 12, 10, 15:19 #48

jarnowa:

ome ethnic groups in Netherlands enjoy excellent living conditions and don't have to work as hard for it (if they work at all) as other groups, yet top all the bad statistics, whereas the group in the worst conditions (Poles) do pretty well.

Why are you so stupid, boy? Can't you understand that it is a choice for some people to live like that? That it is a choice for some people to rent a terraced, one-family home for 500 euro with 10 people (because that way they can make or be left with more money? And that it has nothing to do with one group being pampered and the other not.

Jesus, man ... God gave you a brain. For f*ck sakes, try to honour Him by using it once a month.

Besides, Polish people who choose to stay here and register themselves in the municipality, are eligible for "huursubsidie" (renting subsidy), which means they'll enjoy the same rights as your Maroccans, Turks, etc ... . But, hey ... you should know that, since you claim to have lived here for about 8 years. Since you conveniently choose not to mention that, it is clear for everyone you have a hidden agenda and what a dirty liar you are.

♂

Dec 12, 10, 16:51 #49

Stu:

Why are you so stupid, boy? Can't you understand that it is a choice for some people to live like that? That it is a choice for some people to rent a terraced, one-family home for 500 euro with 10 people (because that way they can make or be left with more money? And that it has nothing to do with one group being pampered and the other not.

Jesus, man ... God gave you a brain. For f*ck sakes, try to honour Him by using it once a month.

Besides, Polish people who choose to stay here and register themselves in the municipality, are eligible for "huursubsidie" (renting subsidy), which means they'll enjoy the same rights as your Maroccans, Turks, etc ... . But, hey ... you should know that, since you claim to have lived here for about 8 years. Since you conveniently choose not to mention that, it is clear for everyone you have a hidden agenda and what a dirty liar you are.

I think you need a brain.

It is not relevant why they choose for crappy housing conditions.

The only thing that's relevant is that Polish people in general are much better immigrants than others despite living in conditions that are much worse.

And just what i expected, you don't want to give an explanation.

You already agreed that rundown districts are likely to improve with Polish immigrants, you are a coward for not admitting that some non-European immigrant groups would cause these districts to detoriate even further.

For you there's no difference between Polish, Arab or black immigrants. But the facts speak for themselves. Just look at the average rundown district in Rotterdam or Amsterdam. Look at Antwerp, Brussels, Paris, London, Birmingham, Malmö. How blind and politically correct can you be?

Lyzko	Dec 12, 10, 21:01 #50
Jarnowa, je comprende maitenant. Mais au contraire! It's not the race which produces the social problems, but instead the the inability of the society as a whole to deal with the influx of immigrants. Rather than forcibly integrate them, say simply "The boat's full up. There's no more room at the inn!", or something like that.

♂

Dec 12, 10, 22:03 #51

A J:

What this article also fails to mention, is that a lot of Dutch people aren't too happy about being a neighbour to ten or more Polish people in one house. (Oh, and isn't it funny how Dutch people aren't allowed to live with ten or more people in one house to share the rent, but temporary foreign workers all of a sudden, are??) No, there's definitely a not-so bright side to this whole story, but let me just tell you that you're still the misinformed Belgian racist that you were before. You're grossly overexaggarating a few things, of course conveniently, all in favour of ''white'' people.

You conviniently skip the fact that they (Poles) live ten or more in one house not because they like it but because YOURS (DUTCH) slave labour agencies place them like that and charge them 50euros/head/week making a lot of money of these poor semi slaves.

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Dec 12, 10, 22:34 #52

Stu:

Why are you so stupid, boy? Can't you understand that it is a choice for some people to live like that? That it is a choice for some people to rent a terraced, one-family home for 500 euro with 10 people (because that way they can make or be left with more money? And that it has nothing to do with one group being pampered and the other not.

No it is not their choice.90% of them work thru DUTCH slave labour agencies and they are placed there by YOURS ******* agencies.Even those who left these places and rented one on their own but still work thru an agency are often being charged for a place in agency house even though they don't live there anymore.Also many of them were exploited and didn't get paid for their work.What I have learned from oszukany.pl is that you dutch are focking crooks and I wonder how is all that even possible in SO CALLED "western" country.In the US these focking dutch blood suckers would be rotting in jail with long sentences for profiting from slavery.

♂ [Suspended]

Dec 12, 10, 23:01 #53

grubas:

You conviniently skip the fact that they (Poles) live ten or more in one house not because they like it but because YOURS (DUTCH) slave labour agencies place them like that and charge them 50euros/head/week making a lot of money of these poor semi slaves.

50 euro a week for a bed doesn't seem such a bad deal. About the same price as staying in a hostel.

If they don't like it, why don't they go home? If they're dumb enough to stay despite not wanting to stay, then they really are thick.

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Dec 12, 10, 23:11 #54

grubas:

90% of them work thru DUTCH slave labour agencies

I've been having a look at their blacklist and at information from our Chamber of Commerce. I saw 4 "Dutch" employment agencies (or employment agencies offering jobs in the Netherlands) on the blacklist, half of which are (partly) owned by Polish people, so in fact they are screwing their own.

If you consider the amount of employment agencies active on the Dutch market, then I think you are not basing your comments on facts, but maybe on hearsay from a couple of disgruntled employees (which you will find everywhere in every organisation). And "slave labour agencies" is an exaggeration. How do you know it is 90% by the way? Did you do some research?

Having said that, if these agencies do extort their personnel, then they have to be dealt with according to the law, no ifs and buts.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 12, 10, 23:13 #55
Stu: half of which are (partly) owned by Polish people, so in fact they are screwing their own. It's probably the same in Holland as in the UK. When the market first opened up, there were quite a few cases of Polish people utterly screwing over their own people with false promises and exceptionally large charges for housing.

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Dec 12, 10, 23:45 #56

Stu:

If you consider the amount of employment agencies active on the Dutch market, then I think you are not basing your comments on facts, but maybe on hearsay from a couple of disgruntled employees (which you will find everywhere in every organisation). And "slave labour agencies" is an exaggeration. How do you know it is 90% by the way? Did you do some research?

Honestly I did not and my comment is based on Polish workers comments from oszukany.pl.Frankly, judging from their Polish these people don't seem to be educated but I don't think they would lie.I said 90% since it's virtually imposiblle for the foraign low and semi skilled workers in the Netherland to get hired directly by an employer without doing time for an agency.And yes they are slave labour agencies indeed.Do you even have any labour rules and regulations in the Netherland?Many Poles work 10h/day, SEVEN days a week without being paid overtime.How is that possible for an agency employees to enter workers housing while they ARE NOT there?And then fine them for any disorder?Dude, how about charging them IN ADVANCE traffic tickets (when they use company car) which they have never received?How come they only get some little money a week for their work (the rest is paid at the end of contract) instead of paycheck every week?Slavery or semi slavery is still alive in the Netherland and is doing well.

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Edited by: Stu Dec 13, 10, 00:22 #57

grubas:

instead of paycheck every week

We don't have such a thing as a pay check per week. We are paid per month.

grubas:

company car) which they have never received

Jee, I don't even have a company car. Complaints about not having a company car, but they are brought to work in a minivan. How bad of these employers of not providing a company car! Shame on them.

grubas:

yes they are slave labour agencies

Maybe a minority. I only saw 4 examples and again, some of them are partly owned by Polish owners. I'm guessing they have a Polish working agreement and not a Dutch.

grubas:

How is that possible for an agency employees to enter workers housing while they ARE NOT there?And then fine them for any disorder?

They possibly have to keep their rooms tidy, no smoking in the rooms, or any other rule. I do the same with the service men and women on the base I work on. Or maybe they damaged some things, which these people conveniently forgot to mention.

grubas:

Do you even have any labour rules and regulations in the Netherland?

Dumb question, since you know we signed the EU's- social chapter

Ashleys mindThreads: 7 Posts: 1,346 Joined: Nov 2, 10 ♀	Dec 13, 10, 10:46 #58
You know if Poles didn't like it they could always leave, innit?

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Dec 13, 10, 11:09 #59

Ashleys mind:

You know if Poles didn't like it they could always leave, innit?

Of course.

But that doesn't mean that if there are cases of exploitation, they should be dealt with severely.

Again ... I guess there is a difference between signing a contract in Poland and signing one in the Netherlands, since here every branch of industry has its own "Collective Labour Agreement", signed between employers and trade unions.

If the trade unions are cross about something, they will strike, as is the case now in the distribution centres of our biggest supermarket, where a lot of Polish people work (at least they do in the village where I live).

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Dec 13, 10, 11:47 #60

I think most Poles will agree that there is ample opportunity to get exploited in Poland too...
I know of young adults who refused to work (and didn't have to) in Poland because the wages were so low and conditions so bad...

They have some sort of migrants superiority complex (oops, better watch what I say, seems a lot of people are getting suspended this Christmas. ;))

Anyway, you can't get away from the fact that if YOU'RE an economic migrant, then YOU'RE doing the exploiting as well.

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