Britain... What the Poles did for us.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 27, 10, 13:47 #301

marqoz:

Serious historians try to write well documented, unbiased reconstructions of facts. But they aren't well paid, because their books are not selling well. So there aren't many of them. And gigantic gap in knowledge on the both sides need more work than few guys can do.

I came to the conclusion that history is no math...there is no ultimate truth, equally true for everybody everywhere. The view on the same part of history changes with your own background, your nationality, your age and your knowledge.
If people could accept that most of the discussions and feuding and grudging could stop...Poles see their version of history as the only real one, so do Germans and Ukrainians and Brits and everybody else.

But as it is people fight to convince the others of their version...people become bitter and hostile about conflicts ended long ago.

Sometimes I doubt the value of history teaching...especially the stupid saying "who forgets history is bound to repeat it"...what thoughtless crap.

As I see it in such boards old grudges are only being kept alive, heated on again and renewed with each new generation who should actually be busy reconciliating with each other...

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Edited by: marqoz Feb 27, 10, 14:19 #302

BB don't be so strong relativist. Only true is interesting according to Józef Mackiewicz, very interesting but not a mainstream historian and journalist. And the true is...
Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus.

You can't stop people from warming over old stories. The only way to disarm these rusty grenades is to show facts. But you're of course right that some facts mean something to one party and not at all to another. Anyway without these old stories Europe would be...

...wouldn't be at all.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Feb 27, 10, 14:25 #303
Marek11111: you Anglo-Saxons bastards Fcuk you untermensch!

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 27, 10, 15:46 #304
Nathan: Hey, how is your 1945 Parade invitation from Britain? The 1945 invitation is the one which Poland accepted. They took part in the 1945 victory parade: it was in Moscow. The London parade was 1946: the Poles who were invited didn't bother to show and Poles have been lying about it ever since.

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Feb 27, 10, 16:25 #305

Harry:

the Poles who were invited didn't bother to show and Poles have been lying about it ever since

Yep, sorry, I messed up the dates a bit.

Bratwurst Boy:

"who forgets history is bound to repeat it"...what thoughtless crap

That's true. Seems like we don't forget, we remember it better than our birthday, but still we repeat it because we know it and can't forget it.

Bratwurst Boy:

Sometimes I doubt the value of history teaching...

We are not taught History, it is often time "local rumors".

marqoz:

Why Poles and Ukrainian fight each other - it's an unbiased question.

The only reason I asked you this question was the fact that in Czechoslovakia you wanted so-called "democratic self-determination", because you made 60% of the population, while in Eastern Galicia, where you presented 22% demographically - you wanted something else, far from "democratic self-determination". So the fact is you suited yourself with whatever reasoning gives you the advantage.

marqoz:

Anyway without these old stories Europe would be...

These are little tubes inserted in European veins to let off some blood, when the systemic pressure is too high ;)

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,954 Joined: Aug 6, 09 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 05:48 #306
if you spit on one Pole face and the the other will not accept you hand that is honor something that you anglo saxons bastards have no idea about

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 07:05 #307
marqoz: Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus. Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt ;)

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Feb 28, 10, 09:32 #308

Nathan:

The only reason I asked you this question was the fact that in Czechoslovakia you wanted so-called "democratic self-determination", because you made 60% of the population, while in Eastern Galicia, where you presented 22% demographically - you wanted something else, far from "democratic self-determination". So the fact is you suited yourself with whatever reasoning gives you the advantage.

Yes, you're maybe right. The historic argument as in Czech case was more adequate in the East.

Nathan:

So the fact is you suited yourself with whatever reasoning gives you the advantage.

As you already stated in Lemberg there were 60:17 ratio of Poles to Ukrainians. You've shot in your own foot.

marqozThreads: - Posts: 218 Joined: Feb 4, 10 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 13:29 #309
And some evidence about ethnic situation of the Cieszyn region you can find on this forum: http://www.polishforums.com/free-translation-42/need-english-translati on-birth-baptismal-document-42217/#msg859809. You can see from the baptismal certificate attached there what was the language of parish of Karwina now Karvina.

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Edited by: Nathan Feb 28, 10, 15:21 #310

marqoz:

As you already stated in Lemberg there were 60:17 ratio of Poles to Ukrainians. You've shot in your own foot.

I didn't. I am trying to be objective and don't avoid mentioning facts, just because I might not like them. Here is a map showing Eastern Galicia, where Ukrainians were majority in 1910:

As you might notice it goes to Sanok, Lesko, Peremyshel (now Polish Przemysl), Bereziw (now Polish Brzozow), Jaroslaw, etc. These are around 70 km inside Polish current borders. In all these lands Ukrainians were majority. L'viv, which you called Lemberg here, was the only city within Eastern Galicia to have Polish majority. So on the basis of those 60% in one city, you invaded Ukraine and L'viv, which was located 150 km deep from the Eastern Galicia borders? Hm, I think your toes are missing ;)
Regarding historical argument:
Holm (now Polish Chelm)

Volodymyr the Great to build the first stone castle there in 1001. Following the Polish capture of Kiev in 1018 the region was made part of Poland, but returned under Kievan rule in 1031.
In 1235 Danylo Romanovych of Halych granted the town a city charter and moved the capital of his domain there. He also built a new castle atop the hill in 1240 and created an Orthodox bishopric there (now the Basilica of the Birth of the Virgin Mary).

L'viv

Lviv was founded by King Daniel of Galicia, in the Ruthenian principality of Halych-Volhynia, and named in honour of his son, Lev. When Daniel died Lev made Lviv the capital of Galicia-Volhynia.[3] The city is first mentioned in the Halych-Volhynian Chronicle, which dates from 1256. By 1272 Lviv had become the capital of the Halych-Volyn Principality

Even history doesn't give you a smile. Please, don't jump about period of Ukrainian cities occupation - it is an old Polish tactic - it doesn't work ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 15:27 #311
I would say from discussions with quite a few Poles that there is an imperialistic streak in them. The way they describe old efforts in Lithuania and Ukraine makes me wonder. The Poles did a lot in the war, need we say more?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Feb 28, 10, 15:35 #312
Nathan: Peremyshel (now... ...and forever... Nathan: ...Polish Przemyśl) Nathan: Bereziw (now... ...and forever... Nathan: ...Polish Brzozów) Nathan: Holm (now... ...and forever... Nathan: ...Polish Chełm) Nathan: L'viv I hope you're taking good care of Lwów. I hope you love the city as much as we do. Just don't steal our songs - that's too much... ...;-)

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 15:39 #313
I noticed that Lvov seems like polish city while the small cities and villages in Lvivsky region look clearly Ukrainian.People also in Lvov look very much like polish in Krakow.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Feb 28, 10, 15:43 #314
Exiled: I noticed that Lvov seems like polish city while the small cities and villages in Lvivsky region look clearly Ukrainian.People also in Lvov look very much like polish in Krakow. Good observation sense, Exiled. There is something, je ne sais quoi, essentially Polish in the city's spirit. I always knew it and even you as a greek can see it!

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Edited by: Exiled Feb 28, 10, 15:53 #315

Yes,there is a museum in Lviv and there is one thing like telescope where you can see old photos of the city.At 1900 the centre looked exactly the same and the names on the shops were polish.Ukrainians say the architecture is Austrian(the usual suspects Italian architects who built Prague,Krakow and all the major cities in Austrohungary) but there seems to be a polish note definetely it is like a picturesqueau Krakow or a beautiful Przemysl or a polonized version of gothic eastern German style architecture different from the architectural style prevalent in Kiev or Minsk.

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Feb 28, 10, 16:17 #316

Nathan:

I didn't. I am trying to be objective and don't avoid mentioning facts, just because I might not like them.

In fact you did shoot. Not with true facts. You shouldn't see it as a merit to give some true evidence. You did shoot because you hadn't even noticed the coincidence between the very fact that Lemberg was predominantly Polish on 1.11.1918 with an argument of self-determination and self-defence of these population.

The map you've produced is no ethnic map at all. Just administrative division with some districts where Ukrainians hadn't majority. Shame to you. There are some maps you could use in support of your claims.

Nathan:

Even history doesn't give you a smile. Please, don't jump about period of Ukrainian cities occupation - it is an old Polish tactic - it doesn't work ;)

Shame again to you, Nathan. You should go back some more hundred years to Mongols, Avars or Goths.

The fact is that Lwów was in Poland from 1349 to 1772 (423 years). All these changed it's demography and structure so deeply, that only a nuke can change it totally. And later despite of Austrian efforts to germanize the city it was still a vital economic and cultural centre of Polish subjects. Since 21.12.1867 (Dezemberverfassung) Galicia gained autonomy and Lemberg as capital of Galicia exploded with Polish institutions. And it lasted till 28.09.1939 and demographically even to 1946.

So you have 500 hundred years long Polish presence in Lwiw, Lwów, Leopolis, Lemberg. Let's wait to the year 2446 or if you prefer to 2439 and then evaluate as equal hosts there. But I wish you Ukrainians all the best and to win this comparison.

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Feb 28, 10, 19:20 #317

marqoz:

You shouldn't see it as a merit to give some true evidence

Where did I boast my objectivism?

marqoz:

The map you've produced is no ethnic map at all.

Nathan:

the eastern part of Galicia included the heartland of the historic territory of Galicia-Volhynia and had a Ukrainian majority [2]. In the latter territory, Ukrainians made up approximately 65% of the Population while Poles made up only 22% of the population.[3] Of the 44 administrative divisions of Austrian eastern Galicia, Lviv was the only one in which Poles made up a majority of the population.[4] In Lviv, the population in 1910 was approximately 60% Polish and 17% Ukrainian.

Look at the map, find Eastern Galicia and read the note I re-submit for you again.

marqoz:

Galicia exploded with Polish institutions. And it lasted till 28.09.1939 and demographically even to 1946.

Its major explosion occurred in 1920-1939 during conducted by Polish government policies of Pacification, Polonization and Sanacija, closing Ukrainian schools and publishing houses, burning churches, preventing Ukrainians to study in L'viv. Most of Ukrainian youth went to Prague for studies. This is how you exploded. Why didn't you explode after the war? Karma?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Gal icia_(1930)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

marqoz:

Let's wait

Are you in your mind? Do you count German cities' of Danzig, Posen, Breslau,...lifespan too to rub their noses with? ;)

Exiled:

People also in Lvov look very much like polish in Krakow.

How was it possible?!! I thought that they had horns and neighed when you talk to them.

Torq:

Good observation sense, Exiled.

Wow, it was good observation. I hope his head didn't explode from such a demanding mental work ;)

Torq:

I always knew it and even you as a greek can see it!

He's Greek? Did you notice any STRIKING similarities between Macedonians, Albanians, Turks and Greeks? How is your good observation? Did you find any manes or tails on any of those? ;)

Torq:

I hope you're taking good care of Lwów.

Thanks for asking. Yes, we take care of our cities. I hope you take care of Перемишель and Холм as well.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Feb 28, 10, 20:14 #318
Nathan: German cities' Danzig, Posen, Breslau German cities? Breslau/Wrocław, maybe. Danzig/Gdańsk, we could argue, but Poznań??? Are you serious? You might as well call Warszawa or Kraków a German city, Nathan :) profoundly shocked Nathan: I hope you take care of Перемишель and Холм as well. Come and see for yourself. You know what they say - travels educate ;)

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Mar 1, 10, 00:20 #319

marqoz:

But I wish you Ukrainians all the best and to win this comparison.

you are mad, mad as Spanish's cow, don't spread your diseased views on this forum, luckily its off topic.

Nathan:

Its major explosion occurred in 1920-1939 during conducted by Polish government policies of Pacification, Polonization and Sanacija, closing Ukrainian

and very good, its different matter to care about self cultural background than on the base folklore diversity build nationalistic identity and terrorist organization, nobody would recognize such entity.
Ukraine its explained Kijów and surrounding area, Poland had no problem with it and were ready to give away its lands.
But Lwów and Podole were, and will be Polish.
there no question about it, and people living there which happened to be other nationality either accept it or move!
And Nazi Nathan which is or was a polish citizen is two faced communist secret police member.

Back to thread topic
Poles've kept high morale of the female population ::::;

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 04:11 #320
Torq: Come and see for yourself. Thanks for invitation, Torq. Someday I definitely will :) Ironside: And Nazi Nathan which is or was a polish citizen is two faced communist secret police member. You blew my undercover, damn! ;)

porzeczkaThreads: - Posts: 130 Joined: Jan 14, 09 ♀	Mar 1, 10, 10:41 #321
Torq: Breslau Wrocław/Breslau/Vratislav was founded by Bohemian prince Vratislav I (and named after him), so it's Czech city :)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Mar 1, 10, 12:27 #322
porzeczka: so it's Czech city :) Oh, is it? So - when is the mighty Czech army taking it back ;)

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Mar 1, 10, 14:31 #323

Nathan:

Hey, how is your 1945 Parade invitation from Britain? It was, unfortunately, made, but to whom? Traitors? WWII instigators? Come on! And they are still not satisfied, "everyone betrayed us, we were sold..." Ha-ha-ha-ha.....;) Double-faced creatures.

Okay, let's put this one to rest. From "An Army In Exile" by General Anders (page299):

"On June 8, 1946, the Victory Parade was held in London. The Polish forces, who had been the first to fight the Germans, and who even in the worst days had never deserted their allies, were not invited to take part. That would not have been politically expedient. An invitation was, however extended to twenty-five airmen from amongst those Polish airmen who had had so big a share in the Battle of Britain. The airmen declined, for they did not wish to represent the Polish forces at a ceremony from which the navy and the army had been excluded."

"On June 5, Mr. Winston Churchill said in the House of Commons"

"The fate of Poland seems to be unending tragedy, and we, who went to war, all ill-prepared on her behalf, watch with sorrow the strange outcome of our endeavours. I deeply regret that none of the Polish troops, and I must say this, who fought with us on a score of battlefields, who poured out their blood in the common cause, are to be allowed to march in the Victory Parade."

There's more but objective readers should get the picture.

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Mar 1, 10, 17:13 #324

ZIMMY:

objective readers should get the picture.

Objective readers will also note certain other armies and navies were 'excluded' from taking part. These included the US army and the US navy (which had made a slightly larger contribution to the war than the Polish army and the Polish navy), the Red Army and the Soviet navy, the Chinese army and navy (which were far larger than the Polish forces and had been fighting for longer too), etc, etc. In fact no armies or navies from any non-commonwealth/empire nation were invited to take part but only the Poles were rude enough to reject their invitation because their army and navy had not been invited.

General Anders also overlooks the fact that in addition to the Free Polish forces, the government of Poland was also invited to attend: they didn't refuse the invitation but didn't bother to send any representatives either. For further details, objective readers can consult Hansard for that day which is available here. They will be most interested in the following statement of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. McNeil):

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Kensington asked very pointedly a question about Polish Forces appearing in the Victory Parade, as also did the right hon Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. It is not true that we have not invited any members of those fighting Poles to take part in the Parade. Let me be quite honest. We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. The action was not taken to please M. Molotov. The action was taken because we have to bring about some kind of balance between these governmental forces, both of whom fought on the same side as ourselves during the war. We have to invite someone on behalf of the Warsaw Government, and I regret to say that the Warsaw Government has not yet provided the forces which they promised to take part in the parade.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Moderator Mar 1, 10, 18:02 #325
What would you call the government of Poland in 1946? The unelected bunch in Warsaw or the unelected bunch in London?

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Mar 1, 10, 18:08 #326
Harry: What would you call the government of Poland in 1946? the only legal representation of independent Poland - government in London! Mark1111 whats your problem?

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Edited by: Moderator Mar 1, 10, 18:10 #327

Ironside:

Harry:
What would you call the government of Poland in 1946?

the only legal representation of independent Poland - government in London!

Legal according to who? You seem to forget that the head of the Polish Government in Exile, Stanisław Mikołajczyk, considered the government in Poland to be the legal government and that is why the London Poles replaced him as Prime Minister of the govt in exile.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 18:18 #328
Harry: What would you call the government of Poland in 1946? Soviet controlled and not the government so many heroic and honorable Poles fought for! http://www.polandinexile.com/vp1.htm

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 18:27 #329
Harry: Legal according to who? to Poles!

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Mar 1, 10, 18:28 #330

Harry:

In fact no armies or navies from any non-commonwealth/empire nation were invited to take part but only the Poles were rude enough to reject their invitation because their army and navy had not been invited.

As you know perfectly well Poles do not accept crumbs: we are poor but proud bunch. It's like being invited to lets say a wedding, half an hour before the ceremony and an invitation is only for you but not your wife, kids and your parents when you are fully aware that the invitation was issued by the host under pressure from the rest of the family. You'd obviously accept but people with some dignity and self worth would not. I don't expect you to understand.

And you still didn't provide a link to this alleged invitation anyway, do you?

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