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Brits to protest against foreigners in the workforce, including Poles.

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Feb 8, 10, 14:08 #91

convex:

A vote for BNP is a clear sign of discontent with immigration as that's the main issue that BNP is associated with

Convex has it bang on the money.

SeanBM:

there is an alternative like the UKIP.

Most people see UKIP as a anti EU tory group and not a stand alone party.

z_darius:

be one of the reasons for BNP's popularity?

I know quite a few people whom have recently become unemployed for the first time in their lives, some of these have been working since the age of 16 and were finished in their 50s. Because they paid into a pension which allowed them to access it at 50 but at a vastly reduced rate when they were made redundant they were not even allowed to claim jsa, even though they still had to find work.

Contrast this to the people who have never/hardly paid into the system at all and the ayslum seekers who the council bends over to help with housing, heating and free food vouchers and you can see why people are getting pissed off.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 8, 10, 14:14 #92
time means: the ayslum seekers who the council bends over to help with housing This is the kind of myth that leads the stupid and easily led to vote for nutty fringe parties. The UKIP have the sense to leave this off their election material, because it simply isn't true. most 'asylum seekers' live in hostels.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Edited by: time means Feb 8, 10, 14:19 #93
jonni: This is the kind of myth that leads the stupid and easily led to vote for nutty fringe parties I can only comment on what i see. The town i live in has a high number of ayslum seekers who are housed in houses and flats, i dare say some are in hostels. I also said the ones who have never /hardly paid into the system meaning born and bred Brits.

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Edited by: jonni Feb 8, 10, 14:32 #94

time means:

high number of ayslum seekers who are housed in house

The issue is the government's dispersal policy (started by the Tories). The idea was to take pressure off local councils in London by dispersing people around the country. As part of that policy, there are minimum standards of housing, very basic, but mandatory.

These standards aren't always met, and some of the places aren't much better than doss houses, but when they are met, this can harbour resentment among neighbours who are waiting for council house repairs.

As for the food vouchers - this is again something introduced by the Tories who were determined that 'asylum seekers' shouldn't work.

I knew a couple, from Iran, both doctors. They didn't live in a hostel or a council house - they rented somewhere very nice using their own assets, and put their kids in private school. They knew their claim for asylum would be accepted - it was a clean cut case - and in the meantime offered to work free at the local hospital in Leeds. They were both very senior specialists and offered to work for free partly to 'keep their hand in', partly to get used to the UK hospital system, and partly to say thank you to the country who had saved their lives. They couldn't. Not even voluntary work. They had to sit at home and receive food vouchers, which they gave away to local pensioners.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 14:49 #95
Jonni It is the system that is at fault and that breeds resentment this is why people are voting for protest parties, it is skewed the wrong way.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 8, 10, 14:53 #96
time means: it is skewed the wrong way. Yes. The important thing is that people understand that the UKIP, the Greens, the LibDems can be protest parties. The BNP are something more sinister. They know they are the bad guys.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Edited by: time means Feb 8, 10, 14:59 #97
jonni: The BNP are something more sinister. George Orwell wrote ( i tried to find the exact line but couldn't) The working class have the most to fear from fascism but always seem to be drawn to it. http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/work/essays/lionunicorn.html It's in there somewhere, may not be your cup of tea but imo a great read :-)

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 15:12 #98
time means: The working class have the most to fear from fascism but always seem to be drawn to it. I'll read that. And that quote is true.

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Edited by: SeanBM Feb 8, 10, 15:32 #99

time means:

Most people see UKIP as a anti EU tory group and not a stand alone party.

Is that not better than the BNP?

time means:

George Orwell

Fantastic writer, I will have to read that too.

The first line alone begs me to read the whole thing:

As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

time means:

The working class have the most to fear from fascism but always seem to be drawn to it.

The same can be said for communism.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 16:03 #100
SeanBM: Is that not better than the BNP? For me yes. I voted UKIP last time as a purely protest vote as i am not anti EU. Voting BNP was not an option for me personally.

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Edited by: SeanBM Feb 8, 10, 16:45 #101

time means:

Voting BNP was not an option for me personally.

I always thought you are a patriot not a nationalist (in the BNP sense of the word).
Is this why?

Do you think many people will spoil their vote and vote for the BNP in direct defiance? as has been suggested on this thread.

How well are the UKIP doing in comparison to the BNP?

I could really just read an English newspaper but you know... eeehhh... this seems easier ;p

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Feb 8, 10, 17:19 #102

SeanBM:

I always thought you are a patriot not a nationalist (in the BNP sense of the word).

That's about it really the old saying about the "patriot loves his country and the nationalist hates everyone elses".

As for why i just don't agree with their policy but i also have no time for the fanantics on the left either, true enough immigration needs looking at but in a sensible way.

SeanBM:

Do you think many people will spoil their vote and vote for the BNP in direct defiance? as has been suggested on this thread.

I don't think they will. It will be a general election next and most people use the locals and Euros to give the parties a kick up the arse. I cannot see the BNP making anymore ground to be honest.

SeanBM:

How well are the UKIP doing in comparison to the BNP

For sure they will get more votes than the BNP, but how well they will do against the old guard is hard to say.

wiesiekThreads: 1 Posts: 41 Joined: Sep 21, 08 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 20:26 #103
SeanBM: Thousands of British construction workers are going to stage a protest against foreigners in the workforce, including Poles, on 3 February in London. Did this happen or did I miss it ?

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Edited by: BritishEmpire Feb 9, 10, 00:12 #104

SeanBM:

Is the UKIP not an acceptable alternative to the BNP on this particular issue? why? why not?

I don't know much about the UKIP, I am just curious.

I would say that they are fairly equal on immigration except that the BNP wish to reverse immigration which is more important than just stopping it, we are already overcrowded and at the rate that immigrates reproduce the british will become a minority in the UK as they already are in london and soon will be in leicester.
I wonder how many people feel comfortable about that?.

SeanBM:

I think it is scary to see people vote for clearly known racists especially when there is an alternative like the UKIP.
I have to say it reminds me of Hitler's rise to power.

There is quite a difference between hitlers rise to power and the BNP gaining support.
Although it always surprises me how quick people are to claim the BNP are racist as an organisation, there is evidence that some members are in the same way that some members of the other parties are (anyone remember the labour MP that was racially abusive towards a polish traffic warden?) or infact alot of people are so as the old saying goes if you keep complaining to people they dont listen. If you want to know something about the BNP then go to them as relying on another party to do so is a mistake because they all slate each other and spread rumours.

jonni:

Just as Germans didn't know what they were getting until it was too late

haha good one jonni, i wonder how many germans you have spoken to on the matter.
Before you ask i have german in the family so i have spoken to quite a few of that era

jonni:

This is the kind of myth that leads the stupid and easily led to vote for nutty fringe parties.

Its not a myth that asylum seekers were given priority for housing, the details are freely available from your local council and i have viewed my local councils and the proportion of foreign people in council housing is far higher than that of native people.

time means:

That's about it really the old saying about the "patriot loves his country and the nationalist hates everyone elses".

First time i have heard that one, i would just say that nationalism is an extreme form of patriotism. Spain was nationalism once but they had many foreigners that resided in the country with no large reports of racial violence. Which leads me to wonder why people view racism as unhuman when the only way to suppress it is with the fear of legal action.
50s,60s & 70s britain is a good example.

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Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 10, 00:36 #105

wiesiek:

Did this happen or did I miss it ?

Good question, I have absolutely no idea.

BritishEmpire:

If you want to know something about the BNP then go to them as relying on another party to do so is a mistake because they all slate each other and spread rumours.

I am not going to go to the BNP.
I quoted links that explicitly show the racism inherent in the BNP and they were not from other parties.
I am not English therefore I am not going to vote, I am just curious.

BritishEmpire:

Its not a myth that asylum seekers were given priority for housing

Is it also a myth? :

Immigration detainees can be held indefinitely, and their detention is not automatically reviewed by the courts. Most detainees are asylum seekers whose claims have been refused. Many experience extreme isolation and distress, knowing no-one in the UK and with very limited understanding of the language, law, their rights and entitlements. Many are traumatised by their experiences in their home country, by finding themselves detained with no release date, and by the prospect of being forcibly returned.

From here

BritishEmpire:

asylum seekers were given priority for housing, the details are freely available from your local council and i have viewed my local councils and the proportion of foreign people in council housing is far higher than that of native people.

Are all the foreigners asylum seekers?
There is a very big difference between the two.

BritishEmpire:

Which leads me to wonder why people view racism as unhuman when the only way to suppress it is with the fear of legal action.
50s,60s & 70s britain is a good example.

A good example of what?

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Edited by: jonni Feb 9, 10, 00:39 #106

BritishEmpire:

proportion of foreign people in council housing is far higher than that of native people.

A bizarre claim. On the estates near my home, in a multicultural city, the faces on the estates are generally white.

BritishEmpire:

i wonder how many germans you have spoken to on the matter

Almost certainly many more than you, having lived there.

The fact remains that however the voters of Britain feel about various policies, including but not only immigration, they are generally too sensible to vote for an openly racist and fascist 'party' with neo-nazi roots.

The BNP's members and active supporters know they are the bad guys. Clowns, misfits, losers, loners and social inadequates certainly, but nevertheless malevolent ones.

jarnowaThreads: 5 Posts: 797 Joined: Nov 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: jarnowa Feb 9, 10, 00:52 #107
BritishEmpire: Which leads me to wonder why people view racism as unhuman what's called "racism" by leftist is usually nothing more than the admirable attitude of defending yourself and your country against foreign scum taking over everything and getting everything for free and then p*ss on you. i also agree with the rest of your nice post.

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Feb 9, 10, 01:11 #108

SeanBM:

Thousands of British construction workers are going to stage a protest against foreigners in the workforce, including Poles, on 3 February in London.

The aim of the demonstration is to remind PM Gordon Brown about his pledge to give “British jobs to British workers”. It will also mark the first anniversary of the protests at the Lindsey Oil Refinery.

Protesters claim that since last year’s strike the situation on the British labour market has not improved. Sub-contractors still flood construction sites with cheap and poorly skilled workers from Poland, Spain, Italy and Portugal, cliam the protestors.

Thousands of workers from building sites, power plants and oil refineries will join the protest.

Good for them! About time...Thats all I have to say, a friend of mines' husband got laid off from a firm he'd worked for for years - his wife had just had twins, she had a good job but was on mat leave...he was told that the work simply wasnt there (this was about 18 months ago) and he was told by a mate that still worked there, that he had been replaced by Poles! cheaper....Im not anti Polish but the situation of our open door policy has ruined the standard of living of people with families, which has already stated by Jocklorc can be hard enough when you have a mortgage and a family and not sharing a house with 5 other blokes! To Delph...You really are a prick!

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Edited by: scrappleton Feb 9, 10, 01:28 #109

Amathyst:

....Im not anti Polish but the situation of our open door policy has ruined the standard of living of people with families,

You're not anti Polish you're just worried about you're own people. Nothing wrong with that.. Anyway , all numbers suggest Polish economy is going up and up. Incrementally but still improving a lot better than other places.

Amathyst:

To Delph...You really are a prick!

Lol

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Edited by: Barney Feb 9, 10, 01:42 #110

BritishEmpire:

i would just say that nationalism is an extreme form of patriotism. Spain was nationalism once but they had many foreigners that resided in the country with no large reports of racial violence. Which leads me to wonder why people view racism as unhuman when the only way to suppress it is with the fear of legal action.

I really dont understand this. Fascist Spain had a lot of foreigners?
Europe in general has had a lot of immigrants the "violence" has not materialised despite what a lot of drama queens say. Racism is inhuman because it’s against humans, trying to combat something inhuman within the parameters of the law is a good thing.

There is a lot of aul shite being talked here, the multiple postings of the terrible and inhuman murder in turkey/Kurdistan being used as a stick to beat Muslims while ignoring the terrible and inhuman treatment of that Austrian man's (and others) daughter. Western/christian traditions? I think not. I'll come back to this.

One person made a good point about the Honour Killing, Torq said that the most shocking thing was the Polices' indifference to the child’s fate and I agree. Making a sweeping statement about the Religious culture that engendered that indifference I would simply point to the present difficulties in Christian or more specifically Catholic Mexico. Christian Mexican police are exemplars of indifference look at the murder and detection rates. The reluctance to investigate murders of children in for example Ciudad Juarez doesnt lead me to a similar conclusion.

Christian societies dont have the stain of honour killings no matter how poor or deprived they are, nothing (outside of that society) can excuse such behaviour, this is not a case for relativism it's simply a case of right and wrong. Projecting that conclusion upon all Muslims is shallow beyond outrage.

The rates of such comparable incidents may be used in an attempt to grab the mantel of superiority but it would make a very tawdry mantel for the self proclaimed victor.

The idea that the left are somehow immune to racism or the impact of migration is to nicely pigeon hole the problem. Demographics of the developed world dictate the rate of migration in an ageing population, dropping below a fertility rate of 2.1 leads to a declining population this coupled with improved longevity is a direct threat to the prosperity of any country. Having said that a populous nation doesnt equal prosperity, modes of production have changed this is why Ireland is richer than Bangladesh. Managed migration is vital to sustain the west's wealth and this policy is driven by the right.

The BNP are a racist organisation Ukip are not. Racism is inhuman draw your own conclusions. Those people who are protesting are not racist, stupid or lazy.

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Feb 9, 10, 14:48 #111

Barney:

The BNP are a racist organisation Ukip are not

I think you will find that UKip are polite racists (you know the different between someone saying look at that nig*er and someone saying oh look at that coloured chap), they want to shut the doors and stop immigration, as do the BNP, why do you think they both did so well in the last elections?

Barney:

The idea that the left are somehow immune to racism or the impact of migration is to nicely pigeon hole the problem. Demographics of the developed world dictate the rate of migration in an ageing population, dropping below a fertility rate of 2.1 leads to a declining population this coupled with improved longevity is a direct threat to the prosperity of any country. Having said that a populous nation doesnt equal prosperity, modes of production have changed this is why Ireland is richer than Bangladesh. Managed migration is vital to sustain the west's wealth and this policy is driven by the right.

So do you suggest we over-populate our Islands and encounter the same problems as these 3rd world immigrants left? Housing shortages, food shortages, job shortages, huge demand for schools and hospitals (of which we are already struggling)...The whole aging population debate is a lie, Poland have done okay for decades without mass immigration so have other countries....

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 14:55 #112
Amathyst: Poland have done okay for decades without mass immigration so have other countries.... In part due to the billions of Zloty Polish immigrants send back form the mass immigration to other countries.

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Feb 9, 10, 15:11 #113

Amathyst:

they want to shut the doors and stop immigration

Stopping immigration is not racist, throwing non whites out is.

Amathyst:

So do you suggest we over-populate our Islands and encounter the same problems as these 3rd world immigrants left?

I didnt suggest that at all I said that with a fertility rate below 2.1 in the developed world population falls. To maintain living standards, paid for by the economically productive, migration is essential. The only other way is to increase the economic productivity of the individual. The migration model is the easiest way to do this.

Amathyst:

The whole aging population debate is a lie

No, it's based on sound economic reality.

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Feb 9, 10, 15:15 #114

Amathyst:

Housing shortages,

This can be traced to three things - Margaret Thatcher, Buy-to-let and the unwillingness of the British public to see flats as being an acceptable choice to live in once you pass a certain age.

food shortages,

Food shortages? Where? There's certainly no shortage of food in the UK...

job shortages,

Wasn't an issue until what, 18 months ago? It'll cease to be an issue again within a couple of years.

huge demand for schools and hospitals (of which we are already struggling)

Both of those problems could be solved with more local management and less governmental interference.

.The whole aging population debate is a lie, Poland have done okay for decades without mass immigration so have other countries....

Poland has done okay? You do realise that the Polish pension system is using today's money to pay for today's pensioners and that it's very unlikely to survive in its current form by 2040? As for other countries, you'll find that a great deal of West Germany's success was built upon foreign workers. Likewise in Spain and Italy - the backbone of their economy was very often badly paid foreign workers.

The more I read, the more I think it's time for an EU referendum - with the binding clause that if the UK leaves, then they must spend 25 years outside of it.

jarnowaThreads: 5 Posts: 797 Joined: Nov 21, 09 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 15:21 #115
Barney: Stopping immigration is not racist, throwing non whites out is. not if they are criminal, extremist, spy, unwilling to adapt, living on welfare or if they have criminal children. so enough valid reasons to kick non-Europeans back to their own countries.

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Feb 9, 10, 15:26 #116

delphiandomine:

Wasn't an issue until what, 18 months ago? It'll cease to be an issue again within a couple of years.

I think this is one of the more interesting points about this whole topic, apart from did it actually happen or not or do we just talk ourselves into oblivion? :)

Ireland and Britain needed foreign workers.
The economy was booming, companies recorded record profits each year.
The banks were lending to everybody and their cat, bank's lending policies and toxic assets caused the credit crunch.
And like a house of cards it collapsed.
So now that there are fewer jobs, the economy slows down, who do people blame? the banks? Noooooo.
I understand that people see foreign cheap labour as a threat because that is what they physically see in front of them day in day out, fuelled by sensationalist tabloids but I just do not see it as the underlying cause.

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Feb 9, 10, 15:27 #117

Barney:

migration is essential.

that's one of the many lies of multiculturalism.

Barney:

The only other way is to increase the economic productivity of the individual. The migration model is the easiest way to do this.

i think you mean the most destructive way.

it's a public secret that migration from 3rd world costs Western countries much more than the returns.

not only in terms of money, also the quality of living usually gets worse as soon as 3rd world immigrants settle down somewhere. crime rises, garbage gets dumped, elderly people and women feel more unsafe, etc.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 15:30 #118
jarnowa: it's a public secret Links please :)

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Edited by: Barney Feb 9, 10, 15:35 #119

jarnowa:

i think you mean the most destructive way.

I meant what I said.

jarnowa:

it's a public secret that migration from 3rd world costs Western countries much more than the returns.

not only in terms of money, also the quality of living usually gets worse as soon as 3rd world immigrants settle down somewhere. crime rises, garbage gets dumped, elderly people and women feel more unsafe, etc.

Lets say you are correct, how do you propose to increase productivity without migration?

jarnowa:

that's one of the many lies of multiculturalism.

The mass hysteria over witch trials or the reds under the beds hearings come to mind every time I see multiculturism used as an insult

jarnowaThreads: 5 Posts: 797 Joined: Nov 21, 09 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 15:42 #120
SeanBM: jarnowa: it's a public secret Links please :) now i'm sure PF members shouldn't post if their IQ is less than 60.

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