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Brits to protest against foreigners in the workforce, including Poles.

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convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 15:50 #121
Barney: Lets say you are correct, how do you propose to increase productivity without migration? investment in education? stimulation for emerging industries that produce stuff that the world wants?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 10, 15:55 #122
jarnowa: now i'm sure PF members shouldn't post if their IQ is less than 60. If you can't debate you resort to insults. Back up your words or take your own advice. Otherwise comments like: jarnowa: it's a public secret that migration from 3rd world costs Western countries much more than the returns. Make you look stupid and paranoid and who am I to disagree with what you look like?

♂

Feb 9, 10, 16:10 #123

SeanBM:

And like a house of cards it collapsed.

And suddenly, as many of the middle class suburban people lost their highly paid jobs in the service sector, rose a boom in demand for jobs that they previously wouldn't do. All those stay at home mothers for instance suddenly had to try and find employment - whereas they wouldn't previously have entertained the idea of working in Tesco or likewise. This is why I say the issue will go away - once the service industry picks up, people will be forgetting about wanting to work in Tesco, leaving the jobs for the working classes.

Of course, if people really want jobs, an extra 10p on income tax should see plenty of job creation...

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 16:25 #124
convex: investment in education? stimulation for emerging industries that produce stuff that the world wants? These look like good ideas but with a time lag. I'm still waiting for jarnowa to suggest an alternative as he in particular is concerned by migration.

jarnowaThreads: 5 Posts: 797 Joined: Nov 21, 09 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 16:37 #125
SeanBM: Back up your words asking for links to a public secret makes clear that you don't understand what a public secret is: something that's known to everyone but evidence is hidden away by those who don't like this sensitive information.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 10, 16:41 #126
jarnowa: evidence is hidden away by those who don't like this sensitive information. And how have you become privy to this "secret" information? I had no idea you have access to such sensitive information, perhaps I should just take your word for everything you say? or you're full of BS and can't back up what you are saying. I am going to go with Occam's razor on this one.

♂

Feb 9, 10, 16:46 #127

Barney:

Lets say you are correct, how do you propose to increase productivity without migration?

I don't think the issue is with productivity. Whatever manufacturing is left within the Western countries has to be actually slowed down as the number of buyers dwindle. The problem is too much work force as compared to available jobs. Immigration won't solve that.

Barney:

I see multiculturism used as an insult

Multiculturalism is a mirage. It doesn't work and it either destroys cultures, or continues to keep them separate but within smaller geographic areas.

convex:

investment in education? stimulation for emerging industries that produce stuff that the world wants?

Education was the promise in 1980-90's. Well, right now it is obvious that this was another mirage. Every kind of job can be exported, and eventually will be exported.
And then there is this stimulation.
Of what? There are no industries in the West anymore. Nothing is being manufactured anymore. Where will the money come from to pay for the stimuli, education etc.

Sorry, but the picture is not looking good at all and migration won't help. If anything, it will cause mass riots and blood shed as patience is running out on both side, the hosts and immigrants, and as neither is in a position to have any real hope.

♂

Feb 9, 10, 16:55 #128

SeanBM:

And how have you become privy to this "secret" information?

I had no idea you have access to such sensitive information, perhaps I should just take your word for everything you say?
or you're full of it and can't back up what you are saying.

I am going to go with Occam's razor on this one.

you're really making a fool of yourself. you really should learn what a public secret is.

those who are more often criminal, unemployed living on welfare, having more children than average and getting child benefit, living in houses with cheap rent, language courses, free lawyers and dozens of other freebies for 3rd world immigrants cost society obviously a lot more than they give back by paying tax.

you deny this just because official sources refuse to research or publish things that might give fuel to nationalist parties?

♂

Feb 9, 10, 17:12 #129

jarnowa:

you're really making a fool of yourself. you really should learn what a public secret is.

So apart from your paranoia that governments are plotting against you, you have no back up.

jarnowa:

you deny this just because official sources refuse to research or publish things that might give fuel to nationalist parties?

Governments do publish statistics each year, you just don't read them but they are freely available on the web.

♂

Feb 9, 10, 18:40 #130

z_darius:

I don't think the issue is with productivity.

Equating productivity with wealth creation was a bit clumsy.

I said earlier that modes of production had changed a British MP, Dennis Skinner, put it in a nutshell when he said that monetarist policy would lead to us all selling hamburgers and insurance to each other. That was the path that was taken and we still have the demographic problem. Raising the retirement age wont solve it nor will job creation without some migration.

I'm not a big proponent of multiculturalism I'm not against it either. Multiculturalism is a way to deal with the inevitable migration its far from perfect but the alternative is protectionism and we have gone too far down the path of diversification to reverse it.

I cant see how we can increase the wealth creation ability of the individual especially, as you have said, the never ending drive to cut costs leads to jobs going elsewhere.

z_darius:

And then there is this stimulation.

Privatise profit Nationalise debt not a good way to run an economy

jarnowaThreads: 5 Posts: 797 Joined: Nov 21, 09 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 19:31 #131
SeanBM: So apart from your paranoia that governments are plotting against you, you have no back up. i already explained that the negative balance of 3rd world immigration is obvious. sceptism is good, but questioning the obvious if it's not backupped by offical data is ridiculous.

♂

Feb 9, 10, 19:54 #132

jarnowa:

i already explained that the negative balance of 3rd world immigration is obvious.

You blame your whole life on external factors particularly Black people, Muslims and people you call ''third worlders''.

jarnowa:

sceptism is good, but questioning the obvious if it's not backupped by offical data is ridiculous.

Obvious to you but to convince others that everyone outside of the E.U. are 'evil', you might want at least a consensus.
Your laziness at not getting national statistics and instead blaming governments of withholding information that is ''obvious'' to you is why I should never talk to you.

Do not expect any further response from me.

♂

Feb 9, 10, 20:23 #133

SeanBM:

Obvious to you but to convince others that everyone outside of the E.U. are 'evil', you might want at least a consensus.

i never tried to convice people that all 3rd world immigrants are evil and i'm sure you know that very well.

Your laziness at not getting national statistics and instead blaming governments of withholding information that is ''obvious'' to you is why I should never talk to you.

i bet you can't give me the name of any European country that has published all direct and indirect cost of 3rd world immigration.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,543 Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 20:52 #134
400 Jobs lost to Polish workers........or.........400 jobs lost to Illinois company ? Cadburys

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 20:55 #135
jarnowa: i bet you can't give me the name of any European country that has published all direct and indirect cost of 3rd world immigration. I am not going to do your work for you. You just make unfounded claims, tell us they are obvious and that Govetrnments are hidding secret information. You are the one that needs to prove your claims.

♂

Feb 9, 10, 21:09 #136

SeanBM:

I am not going to do your work for you.

You just make unfounded claims, tell us they are obvious and that Govetrnments are hidding secret information.

You are the one that needs to prove your claims.

i made a statement that the huge cost of 3rd world immigration is a public secret and that there are no official publishings about this.

if you claim that there's official publishings, it's up to you to come up with evidence.

i'm not even asking you to do any work, i'm not asking you for links, just some names of countries that have published information about this.

if you can't, then you fail, as usual. :)

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 10, 21:43 #137

jarnowa:

i made a statement that the huge cost of 3rd world immigration is a public secret and that there are no official publishings about this.

So you have no other back up.

You failed in even getting any website that agrees that Governments are keeping secret information and that only you know about it. There must be some conspiracy websites that agree with you?

jarnowa:

sceptism is good, but questioning the obvious if it's not backupped by offical data is ridiculous.

Every time I talk to you it ends this way.
I am not going to engage your stupidity any more.

jarnowaThreads: 5 Posts: 797 Joined: Nov 21, 09 ♂	Feb 9, 10, 22:08 #138
SeanBM: crap it's really easier to give me a few names of countries than writing a lot of crap. so it's obvious you were bluffing and don't know any such country.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 10, 22:19 #139

jarnowa:

it's really easier to give me a few names of countries

All countries in the E.U. make monthly and annual statistics on everything that effect their respective countries but since this is a thread about Britain I will post this one The economic impact of immigrants and Office for national statistics.

Now that I have done your homework for you perhaps you will even read it but I won't hold my breath.

♀

Feb 9, 10, 22:49 #140

delphiandomine:

Food shortages? Where? There's certainly no shortage of food in the UK...

Shows how little you know, we are struggling to produce to meet demand, hence the reason we are importing so much more and before you throw in that its because our farmers are lazy blah blah blah thats rubbish:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1024833/Nine-meals-anarchy--Br itain-facing-real-food-crisis.html

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natura l_resources/article3423734.ece

delphiandomine:

Margaret Thatcher, Buy-to-let and the unwillingness of the British public to see flats as being an acceptable choice to live in once you pass a certain age.

Flats are a totally acceptable way of life and always have been, families have been living in high rise for decades, city living is a relatively new thing, but its not only singles and now its couples that are chosing to live this way...By-to-let just ruined communties and has dragged what where nice areas down...any old scum can get the DHS to pay for a nice house in a middle class area (it took my parents months to complaining to get rid of the ***** and her disgusting brood who lived next door to them!).

delphiandomine:

an extra 10p on income tax should see plenty of job creation...

LOL...I already pay more than Im happy with and yet you want to bleed me dry?

delphiandomine:

Wasn't an issue until what, 18 months ago? It'll cease to be an issue again within a couple of years.

No it wont, we were an industrial nation, then we became a nation of service providers, now we have nothing...You explain to me how if you continue to export jobs it will cease? Whilst we have more and more immigrants flocking here, we are losing jobs daily.

http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/cadbury/2010/01/20/h istorian-carl-chinn-fears-closure-of-cadbury-factory-in-bournville-652 33-25642945/

Plus:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consum er_goods/article7019957.ece

Plus

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/08/ethel-austin-au-natural e-administration

plus

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/22/woolworths-retail-mk-on e

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jan/22/retailindustry.dolicis

regarding the above link, they closed all the stores so the figures were much higher!

I could go on Delph but I wont because you clearly have no clue as to the situation in the UK and how bad things really are...and in my opinion things are set to get even worse...had a chat with a friend who works for a company that do concrete moulding, even though they have just won contracts for new prisons to be built they are still putting lists together for those "at risk"...

Immigration at times is necessary, but at the moment its not, we dont even have enough places at our universities:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6496577/Teenagers- with-top-grades-not-guaranteed-best-university-places-says-Lord-Mandel son.html

♂

Feb 9, 10, 23:37 #141

SeanBM:

I quoted links that explicitly show the racism inherent in the BNP and they were not from other parties.

Come on sean i took you for a better person than one of those that just say "but its on the internet so it must be true" type of person. Dont get me wrong its well know that the BNP has its roots in a racist group that were created after the government decided that it would be a good idea to allow large numbers of carribean and asia people to settle in the country without the consent of the population. A little bit of history repeated maybe?

SeanBM:

Is it also a myth? :

OK sean i will be fair and put a finer point on it so as to not confuse you, iam referring to successful asylum applicants which in reality there should be none in the UK as international law states you should claim asylum in the first country you come to and not the 5th or 6th.

SeanBM:

Are all the foreigners asylum seekers?
There is a very big difference between the two.

Well if you look at the country of origin then it kind of gives it away.
Even so the percentage of british people (so they could be of other race) that reside in a council house in my city is about 30%.
Most likely because they are not so good at deceiving the local council when it comes to obtaining housing. If you like i could give you examples as i happen to work with people who are more than happy to tell me how they do it.

SeanBM:

A good example of what?

A good example of people are treated when they are not welcome but the government sees it fit to invite them. Come on sean iam guessing your british and iam no oak tree but i still no the history of race riots in the UK.

jonni:

A bizarre claim. On the estates near my home, in a multicultural city, the faces on the estates are generally white.

Yes it is bizarre that british people are put first but the facts speak for themselves.

jonni:

Almost certainly many more than you, having lived there.

Wow jonni how do you fit it all in having worked for lloyd of london and running your own business, i commend you on even finding time to post on these forums.

jonni:

too sensible to vote for an openly racist

Well i would say you are wrong there for one reason, if they were openly racist they would have been prosecuted and shut down. Even so the right of a man in his own country to dislike someone from another country is entirely his and legal whether you, i or the queen of england likes it or not. There is no such thing as thought police.

♂

Edited by: BritishEmpire Feb 10, 10, 00:11 #142

Barney:

Europe in general has had a lot of immigrants the "violence" has not materialised despite what a lot of drama queens say. Racism is inhuman because it’s against humans, trying to combat something inhuman within the parameters of the law is a good thing.

The violence has materialised but each time it does the governments apply marshal law and complain to the natives that they are the ones that have to change, french riots a few years ago spring to mind. Even so the largest reason why people are so passive on the subject is because there are very few that have the power or influence that live in these areas so nothing changes.

Barney:

The BNP are a racist organisation Ukip are not. Racism is inhuman draw your own conclusions.

Well old cameron said once that UKIP are closet racists but whether they are or not shouldn't bother any potential voters because the world "racist" is very loose and widely applied these days, sticks and stones and all that.
I would say racism isn't inhumane just a not so nice part of human nature as humans have evolved to reject other cultures and races and have developed into separate communities and nations that rejected mixing, if it wasn't true then why do we have black and white people???.

Barney:

Stopping immigration is not racist, throwing non whites out is.

Not at all, if some one has come to work and they are no longer a use then the host country should not have to provide for them, india didn't think much of cancelling a huge amount of work visas and making all the holders reapply. O sh1t thats not racist though is it because they are coloured.

Barney:

The migration model is the easiest way to do this.

And the most destructive, history has shown that (roman empire being a good example).
But if the only thing that matters to you is how much money you have then all i can say is you are missing out on a hell of alot of life.

delphiandomine:

Wasn't an issue until what, 18 months ago? It'll cease to be an issue again within a couple of years.

Thats very true, there was enough work but there is a difference between having foreign workers and foreign workers that have a right to permanent residency.

Barney:

Lets say you are correct, how do you propose to increase productivity without migration?

Increase efficiency through the use of technology, increase the level of high tech funding and university funding for the appropriate training and cancel the 2 illegal wars that we are fighting. JD! :D

SeanBM:

Governments do publish statistics each year, you just don't read them but they are freely available on the web.

The government always fiddles the figures and its been spread across the news multiple times for all to see, if you want information at least go independent and dont rely on the state.

Regarding immigration something like http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/ would be a good place to start especially for all you UKIPer's out there ;-)

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Feb 10, 10, 00:26 #143

BritishEmpire:

I am not sure what you are trying to say.
The BNP are a known racist organisation, you and I are in agreement and there is lots of back up for that from official sources.

BritishEmpire:

asylum seekers were given priority for housing, the details are freely available from your local council and i have viewed my local councils and the proportion of foreign people in council housing is far higher than that of native people.

SeanBM:

Are all the foreigners asylum seekers?
There is a very big difference between the two.

BritishEmpire:

My question was about asylum seekers and foreigners not about foreigners and British people or British to English as I was asking about your original quote.

BritishEmpire:

Your comment made me think of the race riots but I was not sure that is what you were eluding to.

I am not British at all, I am Irish, I have heard stories of those riots and "Paddy bashing" in it's physical form was also an activity back then.

BritishEmpire:

Increase efficiency through the use of technology, increase the level of high tech funding and university funding for the appropriate training and cancel the 2 illegal wars that we are fighting.

Stopping the wars is a good start, in my honest opinion.
I think specialisations in medicine and technology are also what E.U. countries should be gearing towards.

♂

Edited by: jonni Feb 10, 10, 00:52 #144

BritishEmpire:

Wow jonni how do you fit it all in having worked for lloyd of london and running your own business

Lloyds of London? Don't remember that. I run a business though.

BritishEmpire:

Well i would say you are wrong there for one reason, if they were openly racist they would have been prosecuted and shut down.

Many of their activists have been prosecuted.

Past and present activists, John Tyndall, Colin Jordan, Nick Griffin, Lady Birdwood, Mark Collett, Tony Lecomber. They've all had their collar felt, usually for inciting hatred. A fair few more for violence. A true 'party of convictions'. And they may well be "shut down".

Here and here are handy lists of some BNP activists crimes for voters wondering who might be representing them if they tick the wrong box.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 10, 10, 03:45 #145
Pinching Pete: ??? Google her - a BNP parliamentary candidate and longstanding nutter. Used to stand on street corners in London giving pamphlets out. As nutty and agressive as the rest of them, but sounded posh due to an ex-husband having a title.

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,112 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Feb 10, 10, 03:56 #146
jonni: Google her You guys threw a little old lady in jail just because she was with the BNP?

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 10, 10, 04:00 #147
Pinching Pete: You guys threw a little old lady in jail just because she was with the BNP No. For most of her 'career' she wasn't, and when she was convicted as a "little old lady" they suspended her sentence due to old age and general nuttiness. She only got the sentence because she was a frequent flyer at the courthouse for handing out pamphlets to strangers that were written to upset.

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,112 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Feb 10, 10, 04:02 #148
You dont' feel the BNP has ANY redeeming qualities at all?

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 10, 10, 04:03 #149
Pinching Pete: You dont' feel the BNP has ANY redeeming qualities at all? None whatsoever. At least their forerunners (and inspiration) invented the VW.

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,112 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Feb 10, 10, 04:07 #150
jonni: None whatsoever. What do you think would happen if they gained power? In the short term and long term?

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