Which country is more corrupt - Poland or the UK?

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Mar 11, 10, 16:53 #1

Britain is utterly corrupt at the highest levels, squeeky clean in dealings between Joe Public and public administration.

Poland is corrupt at the highest levels and dubious at lower levels - doctors, motoring offences.

But the figures involved in Britain are much, much bigger. To give a quick example: the Commonwealth Development Corporation (govt overseas aid body) was privatised a couple of years ago. Management buyout. The mangement immediately became multi-millionaires as the body was incorrectly valued by a big accountancy firm ... and the valuer in charge became a director ... GBP 300 million lost overnight. CDC has stopped investing in rural schemes in Africa - it now provides capital for shopping malls etc.

The UK tax agency sold its buildings to a developer in a tax haven in a buy-and-leaseback agreement it would call tax evasion. One billion lost, but who gained? And there's no-one to investigate the investigators!

Compared to this, giving a nurse PLN 100 to ensure better care overnight for a sick relative is NOTHING. I just wish you could do the same thing in the UK.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 11, 10, 16:55 #2
Guess who reads Private Eye!

dnzThreads: 25 Posts: 804 Joined: Dec 2, 07 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 16:58 #3
Poland is definately more corrupt and this is worrying in a country which is inhabited by people who are incompetent in prettymuch every aspect of life and always try to blame someone else for their own or their countrys problems. FFS they are still blaming communism for everything and that was 2 decades ago.

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Edited by: joepilsudski Mar 11, 10, 18:05 #4

Perhaps question should be: 'Whose government is more corrupt: UK or Poland?'

I don't live in Poland, but I have lived in the UK...I found people in he UK to be very nice, civilized and friendly...I have never lived in Poland, but I meet many new Polish immigrants here in the US...They seem intelligent and friendly also...So, people at the middle and lower levels are not the problem.

Leadership in the UK?...Very slimy, with recent examples Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair & Gordon Brown...All dogs, IMHO, 'Rothschild's Kennel'.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Mar 11, 10, 18:11 #5
dnz: FFS they are still blaming communism for everything and that was 2 decades ago. Tell ya what, dnz - introduce communism in Great Britain for 45 years and then see if you can sort everything out in two decades :-) Then you can come back here and lecture everyone on how insignificant communist times are on the present-day Poland.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 18:13 #6
Varsovian: Which country is more corrupt Give me 20 Złoty and I'll tell ya!

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 18:20 #7
dnz: FFS they are still blaming communism for everything and that was 2 decades ago. Yea, Poland should have been a utipia by now despite nursing all those wounds from WWII and barely surviving under the Soviet yoke. Next time you break a leg, put a cast on it and I'm sure you'll be 100 percent the next morning.

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Edited by: Arien Mar 11, 10, 18:24 #8

joepilsudski:

Perhaps question should be: 'Whose government is more corrupt: UK or Poland?'

You can find people who are corrupt in every country, and more or less doesn't matter really.. Once they've established themselves, it's hard to get them out.

Varsovian:

But the figures involved in Britain are much, much bigger.

It doesn't really matter how much money is involved, because some countries are wealthier than other countries. I guess I mean to say that if *that* kind of money circulated in Poland, you'd see that greed basically works the same everywhere.

More or less corrupt? I'm afraid there's no such thing, because people tend to behave pretty much the same all around the globe. I don't mean to say everyone is corrupt though, because in reality, it's only a small minority of people who are. (Which ofcourse doesn't make those people less of a problem, but still!)

:)

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 11, 10, 18:57 #9
ZIMMY: despite nursing all those wounds from WWII I think you'll find the word is spelt g-r-u-d-g-e-s.

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Mar 11, 10, 19:14 #10

Torq:

Tell ya what, dnz - introduce communism in Great Britain for 45 years and then see
if you can sort everything out in two decades :-)

Then you can come back here and lecture everyone on how insignificant communist
times are on the present-day Poland.

I'm not saying that it had no effect but everything from roadbuilding being the more expensive in PL than every other EU country to the way people have no regard for others and are rude, Terrible customer service, Terrible standards of driving, Shoddy workmanship and having to bribe people to get a job done is blamed on communism. Yes communism had a terrible effect on PL as a nation but it seems to be blamed for everything.

The Czech republic seems to be doing just fine and developing as a country but the Polish pass the blame mentality seems to be holding things back. As opposed to looking forward to what can be done and what needs to be done people are still looking back at who can be blamed for all the things that have gone wrong.

Usually the English, the Jews or the Germans. Whos going to be to blame when there is a recession here on a much higher magnitude than what the UK has experienced due to people buying everything on finance? Its even possible to buy a set of tyres here on 24 month credit so you will still be paying for them 18 months after they stopped being serviceable and i'm sure theres plenty more examples of such lunacy.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 19:22 #11
dnz: roadbuilding being the more expensive in PL than every other EU country Have you a link for that, please?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 11, 10, 19:27 #12

dnz:

The Czech republic seems to be doing just fine and developing as a country

Czechs didn't lose 35% of their population in the war, didn't have their capital
razed to the ground and didn't lose such a big part of national industrial potential
and wealth during the war. The cowardice shown by them in WW2 should give
them about 15-20 years edge over Poland, but they aren't that far ahead of us.

dnz:

Usually the English, the Jews or the Germans.

Germans - well, duh! (they weren't Martians who invaded us, slaughtered a couple
of million people, including elites and intelligentsia, stopped the development of the
country which in 1939 had a GDP equal to that of Spain and because of the war that
they started put us under Soviet occupation for 45 years).

Jews? Not really. There is a minority of half-wits who would blame everything on the Jews
but, as in any other country, they are only a sad minority.

English??? Yer havin a laugh :-)))) (well - I blame Lineker for Poland not qualifying to
the Euro '92 in Sweden but that's pretty much it)

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Mar 11, 10, 19:58 #13

Torq:

introduce communism in Great Britain for 45 years and then see
if you can sort everything out in two decades :

If I had pound every time I have heard this excuse, then.........

Varsovian:

I just wish you could do the same thing in the UK.

You just haven,t a clue, there is absolutely no comparison.

Torq:

Czechs didn't lose 35% of their population in the war, didn't have their capital
razed to the ground and didn't lose such a big part of national industrial potential
and wealth during the war.

Violin music please.

Torq:

Then you can come back here and lecture everyone on how insignificant communist
times are on the present-day Poland.

Excuses, excuses.

Gets a bit boring after a while.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,478 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Mar 11, 10, 20:03 #14
The OP has a point in my opinion. Rogue UK company directors have a lot to answer for, they know all the tricks in the book, insolvency, bankrupty etc..

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 20:15 #15
dnz: roadbuilding being the more expensive in PL than every other EU country I don't believe this statement is even close to being true in relation to curruption. Could you please show some evidence to back this claim up, please?

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,478 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Mar 11, 10, 20:34 #16
SeanBM: I don't believe this statement is even close to being true in relation to curruption. Could you please show some evidence to back this claim up, please? I heard a story about a major highway project being paid for and the contractor dissapeared.

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Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 20:43 #17

Wroclaw Boy:

I heard a story about a major highway project being paid for and the contractor dissapeared.

I heard that Ireland way back when, spent much of the money that was allocated for road building and when they took a look it was gone and they had to get more money but I am not sure as to the validity of this rumour.

Never-mind Bulgaria spending 1% of the allocated E.U. funds due to corruption scandals, whereas Poland spent 98% of the E.U. funds and were complaining about the 2%.
Bulgaria's corruption problems

Romania Risks EU Funds Freeze Over Corruption

I just don't see it as being "more expensive in PL than every other EU country" due to corruption and I would like some evidence to the contrary if it is at all true.
Otherwise we are all in here just talking rubbish and making up things hahahaha (as if I would ever talk rubbish :)

dnzThreads: 25 Posts: 804 Joined: Dec 2, 07 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 20:45 #18
SeanBM: I don't believe this statement is even close to being true in relation to curruption. Could you please show some evidence to back this claim up, please? I'm trying to find it online now, I read in a CIPD mag last year

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Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 20:49 #19

dnz:

I'm trying to find it online now, I read in a CIPD mag last year

On a side note, I love the fact that we and we alone of all humans throughout history have access to the largest library ever known, the internet.

I don't doubt that there have been corruption cases but I would find it hard to believe that Poland is in the top five worst corruption cases for E.U funds (New accession countries or not, allocated to roads or not.)

I base my opinion on the amount of reapplications for even more funding because projects have been so successful. This means that previous monies have been accounted for and everyone is happy to continue, the way it ought to be.

And don't even start me on Greece ;)

As in previous years, Denmark is perceived as the least corrupt among EU countries, with a score of 9.3, followed by Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands. At the lower end, Greece, Bulgaria and Romania share last place with 3.8. They are followed by Italy, which also registered a major slide compared to last year, and now ranks below Poland and Lithuania as well as EU candidate Turkey and Cuba in the corruption stakes.

EUobserver

Honest GeorgeThreads: 2 Posts: 121 Joined: Nov 12, 09 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 20:57 #20
SeanBM: Could you please show some evidence to back this claim up, please? Construction companies from as far afield as Belarus, China, India and Turkey are lining up to build roads in Poland. Overseas builders have so far won contracts valued at zł.2 billion and are competing for more, worth the same amount again. Source: Rzeczpospolita

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 20:58 #21
Honest George: Construction companies from as far afield as Belarus, China, India and Turkey are lining up to build roads in Poland. I am aware of that, I have seen some of their projects, some failed but this is not a point about corruption which is the topic not who is doing the job. I really don't know what your point is?

Honest GeorgeThreads: 2 Posts: 121 Joined: Nov 12, 09 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 21:07 #22
SeanBM: I really don't know what your point is? Sorry I did not put the entire article, but I believe the foreign tenders were half of what the Polish companies were offering. You have to ask the question why such a phenomenal difference.

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Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 21:21 #23

Honest George:

You have to ask the question why such a phenomenal difference.

I think I may have an answer.

Honest George:

Belarus, China, India and Turkey

All aforementioned countries are known for their dismal wages, non-existent worker's unions and have huge human rights issues.

And before anyone starts on one, check where your clothes, your pens, laptops, furniture etc is made and the human rights violations.

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Mar 11, 10, 21:26 #24

dnz:

FFS they are still blaming communism for everything and that was 2 decades ago.

But that means that people in Poland that had zero contact with the previous system are 20 years old and that the vast majority grew up in an enviroment where everything was a deficit product and where you really had to be rude, use your elbows and cut into the queue if you wanted to bring something back home to your family. These people won't change over night. They might even not change at all. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks or old habits die hard and stuff... ya know.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 21:31 #25
The biggest road building companies here in Poland are Skanska (Swedish), Stargag (Austrain), Alpine Bau (German), Dragados (Spanish?) share most of the roadworks here. I have heard of China, India and Turkey doing odd projects but non from Belarus but that isn't to say they don't.

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Mar 11, 10, 21:31 #26

The UK has 4 countries. Scotland with a devolved Parliament in Holyrood since 1999. Wales with their own Welsh Assembly. Northern Ireland with Stormont since 1926 I believe. Last (and least ;) ;) ;)), England in Westminster.

Corruption manifests itself in different forms. Many companies from the UK are involved in tax evasion and tax avoidance. They elope to France at the end of the fiscal year and try to circumvent some loopholes. I haven't looked into the validity of offshore accounts but sth smells fishy about those too. Also, gross bonuses are dished out to undeserving FATcats.

Poland's corruption is more in manipulative forms, swindling by currying favour with key personnel and bribing them. Given the convoluted and protracted procedures in place, they just skip them through the use of backhanders.

I don't know which is more corrupt. They are just different. My heart would say Poland but my head would say that materialism is more of a factor in the UK (and the concomitant corruption). In balance, it's a tie.

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Edited by: SeanBM Mar 11, 10, 21:56 #27

Seanus:

I don't know which is more corrupt. They are just different.

I believe that Britain has institutionalised corruption, with human right privacy laws and actions comparable to that of China.

But Poland does have it's Scandals, I think Britain would have less corruption, when it comes to E.U. funds :) :) :)

It is also a matter of how you ''dress up'' corruption, with a bowler hat or a moustache ? (clearly making Charley Chaplin the most corrupt man ever :p

It is very unpopular to say anything positive about Poland on these forums but in reality (mine anyway:) it is getting better and is much further ahead, development wise, than I would have given it credit for.

So to summarise, the most corrupt countries are the ones that don't talk about corruption, it is everywhere but when the media is controlled you know you are up sugar creek without a paddle.

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 22:02 #28
Probably UK, but Britain is more subtle and sophisticated with it's corruption.

Amanda91Threads: 3 Posts: 336 Joined: May 27, 07 ♀	Mar 11, 10, 22:05 #29
Varsovian: But the figures involved in Britain are much, much bigger Not the figures but most likely it's more public over there. This is the problem in our western world, our medias are spreading it all over the world while in Poland many things are still being swept under the carpet.

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Mar 11, 10, 22:35 #30

Varsovian:

And there's no-one to investigate the investigators!

There are independet bodies set up.

Most countries are corrupt at some level...I dont see Brits starving in the streets because the goverment purchased guns instead of food, or that we are bleeding to death in emergency rooms because the goverment spent all the money ment for hospitals on guns or big cars....As corrupt as my country my seem, Im more than happy to live here and aparently are millions of foreigners..

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