Ive been in the UK for 6 days to relocate and im going back to Poland.

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Aug 15, 10, 14:44 #151

Amathyst:

Bollox,

I don't think so. Look at the country today and the quote stands. Hopefully we can now see the writing on the wall and do something about it.

Amathyst:

The Industrial Revolution was fueled by the working class

More likely the mill and mine owners wanting more production.

Seanus:

I recommend a thoroughly likeable Englishman, Pat Condell

Me too.

wildrover:

....and she paid for it...!

Thank fcuk!

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Aug 15, 10, 15:02 #152

warszawski:

Thatcher was good for the UK

If she was so good, why was the unemployment rate much higher than it was before she came to power? Why was there so much social unrest? Surely not because her politics were so equal towards all Brits, small and large. I think her symapthies went more to the large ones than to the small ones.

@Avalon: yeah, she stimulated entrepeneurship, however, she pushed too many into the abyss and over the whole her domestic policy has to be viewed at as being bad. Just like her foreign policy for that matter. A lot of ppl were glad when she finally left the stage. I remember that as I happened to be in London at the time she fell - ppl were really happy the biatch (their words) was gone :)

Avalon:

Perhaps that was because she negotiated an £11 billion rebate from the UK's contrubitions to the EU and always refused requests to recind it.

Well, the UK has to start paying in full now, eh? This rebate was about the biggest blunder ever made in the EU and a shame for the unity of Europe as a whole. It's ridiculous to have all the benefits, but not willing to pay the full monty like everybody else. There were plenty of ppl who were in favour of the UK leaving the EU at the time, including myself.

Seanus:

However, she was a domestic disaster on many counts.

Yep, she didn't do much good for the country as a whole - for the upper class she did, but not for the much bigger middle and lower classes.

In all we can evaluate Thatcher as one of the worst PM's the UK has ever had.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 15:06 #153
MareGaea: In all we can evaluate Thatcher as one of the worst PM's the UK has ever had. I'm NO Thatcher fan but i would give it to Brown. The guy should be arrested for what he's done to the country!

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,529 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 15:08 #154
Ok, ex aequo then :) >^..^< M-G (gee, I wonder why all those conservatives think Thatcher was actually a good PM)

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Aug 15, 10, 15:16 #155

MareGaea:

Well, the UK has to start paying in full now, eh? This rebate was about the biggest blunder ever made in the EU and a shame for the unity of Europe as a whole. It's ridiculous to have all the benefits, but not willing to pay the full monty like everybody else. There were plenty of ppl who were in favour of the UK leaving the EU at the time, including myself.

Actually, the rebate was and is because the UK has a tiny farming sector - so at the time of the rebate being negotiated, the UK was paying far more in and getting next to nothing out of it. As most people rightfully say - why are we paying for French farmers?

Scrap the CAP and the rebate becomes a non issue, it's that simple.

(incidentally, why did the Dutch never attempt to negotiate their own rebate? As I recall, the UK and the Dutch were/are the big, big losers with the CAP)

MareGaea:

In all we can evaluate Thatcher as one of the worst PM's the UK has ever had.

Unlikely. It'll take a long time until people can look at her critically, but if it wasn't for her tough, uncompromising stance in general - it would seem unlikely that the UK would ever have successfully transitioned from a socialist dump into a modern market economy. Look at how dreadfully poor the UK was in 1979, then compare it to 1997 onwards. There's just no comparison.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 15:18 #156
Where is WB to tell his tales? Gordon Brown was so far removed from Old Labour, it's hard to believe. He was a globalist that pushed for 'world' agencies and lost sight of 'Britishness'. He talked a good game on that front but perceptive people saw right through him.

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Aug 15, 10, 15:40 #157

MareGaea:

If she was so good, why was the unemployment rate much higher than it was before she came to power? Why was there so much social unrest? Surely not because her politics were so equal towards all Brits, small and large. I think her symapthies went more to the large ones than to the small ones.

Not a professor of UK History, but the following comes to mind...

"Some times the best medecine tastes the worst"?

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Aug 15, 10, 16:02 #158

MareGaea:

If she was so good, why was the unemployment rate much higher than it was before she came to power? Why was there so much social unrest?

Forgot to reply to this.

Maggie culled many of the inefficient, lumbering State businesses. Look at mining - it made NO sense to subsidise mines when coal could be bought cheaper abroad - just like at the minute, where it's cheaper to buy subsidised Polish coal than to buy British coal.

Social unrest? Nothing compared to the mid 70's - read about the Winter of Discontent and the 3 day week!

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Edited by: MareGaea Aug 15, 10, 16:06 #159

delphiandomine:

As I recall, the UK and the Dutch were/are the big, big losers with the CAP

If you really want to talk in terms of "Losers" with regards to the EU, then I would say that would be NL, BE, SE and DE and to a much lesser extent the UK. The rest has all majorly benefitted from the EU. The Republic of Ireland is a good example: even though it has been the richest country of the EU for the past 5 years or longer, it still received massive contributions from the EU, in Dublin, in an aweful lot of places you still see signs that some project is co-funded by the EU. Well, as per 2012 that will be over as they have to pay back 8 bln a year to the EU, which is the only correct and just thing to do. But it will mean the bancrupcy of Ireland as such. The country's not doing well at the time and made the mistake not to put up some reserves as even a blind man could've seen that the EU at some point would say - guys, you're rich now and are still a NET receiver, we can't have that, now, can't we? And so it went.
Of course, there's gonna be mass protests in Ireland and the voice to leave the EU will become big again, as it was a few years ago - ppl were openly talking about that it was time Ireland leaves the EU: they were rich and why would they have to pay for poor countries? Hereby conveniently forgetting that it's that very same EU that created the circumstances in which they could become rich in the first place. But the general populace looks no further than their nose is long, as we say in NL, so I guess there will be mass unrest when the shyte hits the fan in 2012.

delphiandomine:

Maggie culled many of the inefficient, lumbering State businesses. Look at mining - it made NO sense to subsidise mines when coal could be bought cheaper abroad - just like at the minute, where it's cheaper to buy subsidised Polish coal than to buy British coal.

But in the end the number of unemployed remained grossly the same, so no real progress was made, except for consumerism. And one could question whether that is real progress at all.

>^..^<

M-G (but by then)

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,642 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 16:11 #160
MareGaea: I guess there will be mass unrest when the shyte hits the fan in 2012. I hope they will leave the EU, and I hope the rest will follow. Better for everybody. :)

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 16:17 #161
delphiandomine: where it's cheaper Adding on the social costs it doesn't work out cheaper at all. delphiandomine: Look at mining Pure political revenge and nothing more.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Aug 15, 10, 16:24 #162

MareGaea:

If you really want to talk in terms of "Losers" with regards to the EU, then I would say that would be NL, BE, SE and DE and to a much lesser extent the UK. The rest has all majorly benefitted from the EU.

The UK only escaped being a major loser because of the rebate - but yes, I'd agree. Germany I suppose has gained from having a massive single market for their products - and to be fair, Wallonia hasn't exactly done badly from having the EU as well. Denmark gained because without the EU, they would have lost their major trading partner (the UK) at the time.

But the Dutch are and were definitely the big losers - no rebate, no farming and really not much to show for what they've paid.

The point about the RoI is bang on. They were still acting like a poor country when they were raking it in - even with the current crisis, they're not a poor country!

I only hope the EU can reform the CAP sooner rather than later. The problem is that countries like Poland were sold on EU membership through the carrot of farming subsidies - removing that now is going to cause chaos :( I really don't know why the A8+2 countries were allowed to be included in the CAP in the first place.

time means:

Adding on the social costs it doesn't work out cheaper at all.

Most people are happy to have the mines closed (who wants mines? terrible things) and the work sent abroad, really.

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Edited by: ShawnH Aug 15, 10, 16:32 #163

delphiandomine:

Most people are happy to have the mines closed (who wants mines? terrible things) and the work sent abroad, really.

Agreed.

Rebar in bridges, nails holding your home together, the train/plane/automobile/ship that brought MG (tiens.) to IRL, copper plumbing, silver solder for printed circuit boards, hydro-electric transmission wires that keep the lights on and the computer running. All over rated. Hell if the taliban can live without it all, why can't we? :-)

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,587 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 16:36 #164
ShawnH: All over rated. Hell if the taliban can live without it all, why can't we? :-) Haha, come on - if you could live next to an open-cast mine, or you could get it all from abroad for cheaper, which would you choose? ;)

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Aug 15, 10, 16:38 #165

A J:

I hope they will leave the EU, and I hope the rest will follow. Better for everybody.

Well, my stance on a nucleus EU of the original founding states is well known. Difference will be in that case that the EU will be excruciating rich and all those countries which are now complaining the hardest will find out that it wasn't so bad after all.

delphiandomine:

Germany I suppose has gained from having a massive single market

I am not sure if that single market weighs up to the massive contributions they make every year. And they have another handicap: they're Germany. They cannot complain about things as everybody will start saying: Germany is back up to her old tricks. Compare the remark Kaczynski made a few years ago towards Germany. As for NL, you may or may not believe this, but our biggest market is still agricultural. I seem to remember that Denmark, as any other small country surrounding it, exported mostly to Germany, for NL 80 per cent of her export goes to Germany, and this has always been like that, even before the EU and Flanders basically pays the price for the gains of Wallonia, so it's not a real wonder that there is massive discontent between those two parts of Belgium. The Flemish pay the most per head, followed by NL, Lux and actually Wallonia.
In all, the EU is not that bad at all for the less rich member-states.
But you're right, removing agricultural subsidies and funds and so on, would basically remove the basis on which a lot of countries joined in the first place, not only PL.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

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Aug 15, 10, 16:46 #166

delphiandomine:

if you could live next to an open-cast mine, or you could get it all from abroad for cheaper, which would you choose? ;)

I am of two minds on this issue, and can't see it as black or white....

Living in the expanse known as Canada, we are truly blessed with an abundance of natural resources. Fortunately, most of the population is concentrated in the south, along the US border. Ergo, most of the natural resources to be exploited tend to be north of the population band. As a city slicker, I don't have to live on top of an open pit mine, so it is not really a consideration. I am in favour of the employment opportunities that such abundant resources have the potential to generate, but am aware of the implications for the environment as a whole. I am also price conscious when it comes to shopping, but am aware of the negative fiscal impact of buying cheap imported stuff has on our local citizens. I want them to earn a decent wage, in a safe environment, so they too can go home safely to their families each night, and are aware such considerations are not taken in those economies deemed as cheap.

So, all that said, I would want to buy it at home first, if I was forced to make a choice. That choice might be different if I were in a smaller, more densely populated European country.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Aug 15, 10, 16:48 #167
delphiandomine: who wants mines? terrible things True enough it's a dangerous hard job.

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Aug 15, 10, 17:04 #168

MareGaea

Well, the UK has to start paying in full now, eh? This rebate was about the biggest blunder ever made in the EU and a shame for the unity of Europe as a whole. It's ridiculous to have all the benefits, but not willing to pay the full monty like everybody else. There were plenty of ppl who were in favour of the UK leaving the EU at the time, including myself.

Unity of Europe? what fantasy land do you live in?

between 1992-2002, France fraudulently claimed 500 million euros in illegal subsidies for fruit/vegetable farmers. The EU ordered France to repay this money by July of 2009 with interest, total now some 731 million euros. This money is still outstanding.

"Despite the bad smell left by rotten fruit and vegetable payments, France is already preparing to negotiate another stitch-up with Germany, as it did in 2002, to perpetuate E.U. farm spending at current levels until the cows come home".

Paul Taylor is a Reuters columnist.

You wanted the UK out of europe!!!...what do you think the English people want?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Aug 18, 10, 23:36 #169

Lots of points, lots of posts, dont have the time or patience to answer them, suffice to say after the latest installemnt of living in England - i way prefer Poland. This has become my home i didnt realise what i had till it wasnt there.

I drove Wroclaw - Southampton lasy saturday and then the return journey a saturday later, thats some hard core driving on the way back i didnt even hotel! just crashed in German car parks, as i mentioned a friend was with me. Left the UK with a monumental hang over at 11:00 Saturday and got home at 15:00 Sunday, with a stop off in Prague for pizza.

Glad to be back, what was i thinking?

A night in Wroclaw Rynek last night "you know who you are" sealed the deal.

Stand by for some really sh1tty UK bashing threads.............

dtaylor5632Threads: 48 Posts: 4,348 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 23:37 #170
Wroclaw Boy: Wroclaw Boy You forgot to pick me up!!!! ya bugger!!! :P

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 23:40 #171
Was it really so unbearable as you presented it, WB? You even said England was your home. Don't you feel English anymore? Was it the people, the lack of jobs or sth else?

MEMBER ♂

Aug 18, 10, 23:50 #172

dtaylor5632:

You forgot to pick me up!!!! ya bugger!!! :P

Sorry dude, the car was full.

Seanus:

Was it really so unbearable as you presented it, WB? You even said England was your home. Don't you feel English anymore? Was it the people, the lack of jobs or sth else?

Yes it was, what i actually said was "it was my country". It was a number of things predominantly the RAT race. A multitude of issues basically.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 23:56 #173
Don't you have a place in the rat race? Isn't finance a big area in the UK? I guess the culture of chavs put you off. Are you gonna step right back into your position here?

MEMBER ♂

Aug 19, 10, 00:05 #174

Seanus:

Don't you have a place in the rat race?

Stop fishing but since you ask no not really, not here, im cool.

Seanus:

Isn't finance a big area in the UK?

Whats that got to do with anything?

Seanus:

I guess the culture of chavs put you off.

One reason

Seanus:

Are you gonna step right back into your position here?

Here as in Poland? or here as in the Forum? in both cases no. Lifes to short.. We are all on a quest to better our selves.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 00:18 #175
Fishing? Now you are talking. Scotland was quite the country for fishing :) I enjoyed a bit of that, just like Gazza and Seaman :) I didn't think you were heading back for the benefits in the UK? Didn't you want to work in finance or real estate in the UK? I meant in Poland. What is a better station for a foreigner than what you had? I don't see it!

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Aug 19, 10, 01:44 #176

From what i can see here, many british expats in poland teach english or run some shady internet business. When they try to make a return to the UK, they complain about not being able to readjust BUT the real reason is that they can't find decent work!

The recession is one reason (UK is a bit ****** up in other ways too as mentioned by others ITT), but the other is lack of a relevant education. A degree in english lit (or some other useless program) and a celta certificate + a few years of teaching grammar isn't going to get you far in today's competitive world (outside of the esl market).

If you people (those complaining about the UK) had degrees/qualifications in in-demand jobs (science, engineering, medicine etc.), you wouldn't have any problems readjusting.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 11:06 #177
Bolle, you have completely limited both the whole teaching process and the transferability of the skills involved. I've known teachers who have gone on to work for major corporations like Kraft. It's a very broad church and many have a wide range of options. They just need to find a company willing to take them on.

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Edited by: hague1cmaeron Aug 19, 10, 14:59 #178

MareGaea:

It's tough eh, to know the truth? A former Dutch PM, Luns, didn't want Britain in the EU as it would lead to only trouble and repeatedly blocked it. Now go fcuk yourself, you moron.

Ah well, Britain cannot cater for the inferiority complexes of other nations, I am sure that liberating Holland from the Nazis was good idea, it is sad to see the Dutch PM following in the footsteps of that immeasurably arrogant and stupid De Gaulle.

Thus far your argument hasn't exactly been confined to facts, the facts that you have produced have proved to have been 100% wrong. Lets not forget that classic, that according to you Thatcher increased debt, when in fact she did the exact opposite:) She inherited a mess of an economy and turned it around.

By that debt statement you have proved yourself to be economically, historically and politically illiterate. Congratulations, what a Tri-factor:) Or be honest you simply don't know much about Margaret Thatcher.

according to you her foreign policy was wrong:)

fact: she defeated the Argentinians and reclaimed the Falklands for Britain.-seems like a success to me-no?

and i could go on and on and on.

Though I don't want waste my time on somebody whose political knowledge comes from pub conversations.

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Aug 19, 10, 15:16 #179

Seanus:

Bolle, you have completely limited both the whole teaching process and the transferability of the skills involved. I've known teachers who have gone on to work for major corporations like Kraft. It's a very broad church and many have a wide range of options. They just need to find a company willing to take them on.

But in this recession and increasingly competitive world, companies don't need esl teachers to transfer their skills to work for their companies when they can just hire someone who already has experience (prior professional employment, internship etc.). There are plenty of people out there who lost jobs in the recession and want to get back to what they were once doing, only this time for a difference company.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 15:54 #180
True, you have a good point there. However, the recession brought with it a defeatist ethic, exacerbated by the press. No longer did we see too many gritty folk trying to stick things out but a realisation of the domino effect of the crisis. Many were resigned to loss. Still, you have to roll the dice and teachers bring more than just grammar to the table :)

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