No job unless you're Polish

♂

Mar 18, 10, 17:06 #151

Really - "take money, give money" "decent wages" "social justice". You really talking like commies did.
Some people are just plain stupid and lazy. They don't deserve a "decent life" if they are not willing to fight for it. Especially if a decent life is founded by others - hard working people. More especially if the "decent" means (like in the UK) an own house, owning a car, holidays in Spain, plasma TV set etc.
Its clearly visible in the UK. At first they pay a huge group of people just for sitting at home. An then the newspapers wonders why these people are not interested in education or work.
Immigrants filled this gap in the job market.

♂

Mar 18, 10, 17:10 #152

enkidu:

Really - "take money, give money" "decent wages" "social justice". You really talking like commies did.

Decent wages are what people pay to get decent employees. I support decent wages for decent work, because I want to get the best possible people to work for me. I don't support decent wages because they are mandated by law.

If you're going to give support, you might as well do it through providing as much opportunity as possible to get people productive.

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 18, 10, 17:29 #153

enkidu:

Really - "take money, give money" "decent wages" "social justice". You really talking like commies did.

You should keep in mind that I'm a social-liberal. (I believe in competition, but I also believe in equal opportunity.)

enkidu:

Some people are just plain stupid and lazy. They don't deserve a "decent life" if they are not willing to fight for it.

I can tell you from personal experience that I can't get anywhere - no matter how hard I'll fight for it - if no one is willing to offer me a contract. But they do let me work for a year and a half everytime, so this means I'm doing a good job. They just don't want to give you a permanent contract anymore. So maybe you could explain something to me then, if I'm such a communist, how the hell people are supposed to pay for an education if they can't even afford their own home? Do you want to call me lazy then? Feel free to ask all the employers I've had how lazy I've been.

enkidu:

Especially if a decent life is founded by others - hard working people. More especially if the "decent" means (like in the UK) an own house, owning a car, holidays in Spain, plasma TV set etc.

You can't afford any of the above when you're on wellfare. (Maybe a cheap flat or an appartment.)

enkidu:

Its clearly visible in the UK. At first they pay a huge group of people just for sitting at home.

Because no one invests in these people. Most of them are forced to sit home, but you don't get it, do you? (Probably because you're reading those tabloids and magazines all the time!)

enkidu:

An then the newspapers wonders why these people are not interested in education or work.

Well, I am here, telling you that I am, and I'm one of the many young people who are interested in personal development, but I'm also telling you very loud and very clear why I can't afford a study. (Yet.) Which part of my story didn't you understand I wonder? (My situation is very similar to those situations of people in the UK.)

enkidu:

Immigrants filled this gap in the job market.

No, they replaced your local working class, because most employers like the idea of having an endless supply of people they can pay less, and they're even happier when they don't have to promise anyone a contract or anything. You know what I keep hearing where I live? ''We don't have work for you.'' Guess what? If I look out of my window, I can see people work at the same company I called a few times. I have more than enough qualifications for that job.

I hope you'll be aware of the consequences for our future before it all gets out of hand, because at some point it will damage your own community, and when that happens there's no turning back. I'm willing to bet that you'll have more problems than you already seem to have now, but by all means, keep exploiting people and stick your head in the sand when they're trying to talk about a solution.

:)

♂

Edited by: voice of reason Mar 18, 10, 17:36 #154

enkidu:

"decent wages"

So what would you consider a 'decent' living UK wage? I pay my staff above the national average, I give them 28 days holiday per year, an extra weeks PAID holiday at time and a quarter after 10 years (then 15, 20, etc years service), pay them for their breaks, respect the right to belong to a trade union, pay for taxis if staff have no other way of getting home on late shift overtime, send all my valued employees a birthday card and if possible we all go to the pub for a couple of drinks after work, pay time and a half Saturday, double time Sunday, we don't have a canteen but I pay for a catering company to stock vending machines (which I make a loss on), pay my lovely VALUED British staff time and a quarter on bank holidays even though I give them and myself the day off....after all, I want to enjoy my family life and so should they.

If I was an unscrupulous employer, I would have high staff turn over, I'm not and I don't, I respect my workforce and they respect me, whenever someone leaves or retires (by the way we had a lovely old lady who worked on reception brought us a homebaked cake on her last day and had clocked up 40 years service who was actually crying at leaving, I took this company over and kept the traditions going), I virtually had to risk everything, go to the bank and beg them to give me the money, the previous owners virtually sold this company to me for 1p, if it went tits up, I would be bankrupt and on a park bench, people worked and continue to work for me so whenever possible we all have a get together.

I'm sick of Poles and other UNWANTED immigrants whingeing, whining, bleating, yapping, moaning and complaining about working conditions in this country, I look after the people I employ, all you want to do is MOAN, MOAN, MOAN.

Carry on moaning, I'll just keep running my own business, my own way, I'm happy, my workforce is happy, my customers are happy and if you're not happy, well that's just too bad.

♂

Mar 18, 10, 17:59 #155

Arien:

You should keep in mind that I'm a social-liberal. (I believe in competition, but I also believe in equal opportunity.)

You're a commie, it's ok :)

Arien:

I can tell you from personal experience that I can't get anywhere - no matter how hard I'll fight for it - if no one is willing to offer me a contract.

Work in a pub in Ireland, then get yourself an IT certificate. I'll hire you once you get your CCNA, and pay for the rest of your training.

Arien:

Most of them are forced to sit home

I'll call BS on that. There are loans for schooling, and grants for those who can't pay for it.

Arien:

Well, I am here, telling you that I am, and I'm one of the many young people who are interested in personal development, but I'm also telling you very loud and very clear why I can't afford a study.

Go move to Germany, I'll help you get into school for free.

Arien:

No, they replaced your local working class, because most employers like the idea of having an endless supply of people they can pay less, and they're even happier when they don't have to promise anyone a contract or anything.

No, those jobs are open to local workers. You make the same amount of money sitting at home watching TV and ******** about immigrants.

voice of reasonThreads: - Posts: 41 Joined: Mar 18, 10 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 18:04 #156
convex: those jobs are open to local Local?

king polkagamon

Edited by: king polkagamon Mar 18, 10, 18:28 #157

It is simple statistics.Not all people are the same.Some can work at night some cannot.Some can work 10 hours continuously others get tired in one hour.In each population there is the average(65%),the very competent(10%). ,the useless(10%) etc.Probably the English average is much higher than the Indian average.But India has so much population that average does not count since the UK can drain from the 10% pool of the most competent who are better than the average English.
The polish average is on line with the English average in terms of IQ,physical power etc.So the English have unlimited pools to drain.Probably the 10% has no luck and they have to get benefits.The problem is that the average can find itself in bad condition as well if a coincidence of factors create a demand and offer for working over usual average quality and quantity.Since polish wages do not improve the pool remains the same and if they improve they may open other countries like China as well.It is capitalism in full force.

♂

Mar 18, 10, 18:28 #158

convex:

You're a commie, it's ok :)

Not really. (Communism is more about having a strong government, I'm more about social awareness and individual initiative.)

convex:

Work in a pub in Ireland, then get yourself an IT certificate. I'll hire you once you get your CCNA, and pay for the rest of your training.

If there's a job for me by that time, and if it all works out, then I will definitely consider your offer.

convex:

I'll call BS on that. There are loans for schooling, and grants for those who can't pay for it.

Alright, fair enough. (It doesn't work like that over here though!)

convex:

No, those jobs are open to local workers. You make the same amount of money sitting at home watching TV and ******** about immigrants.

Are you sure? I've seen a documentary about jobless people once, and they were talking about 70 pounds a week? (That's not much!)

:)

♂

Mar 18, 10, 19:02 #159

Arien:

Not really. (Communism is more about having a strong government, I'm more about social awareness and individual initiative.)

fine fine, socialist, which, there's nothing wrong with (just not for me, hippie).

Arien:

If there's a job for me by that time, and if it all works out, then I will definitely consider your offer.

absolutely. please, I need help.

Arien:

Alright, fair enough. (It doesn't work like that over here though!)

Time to move to Germany? Beatrix probably won't be happy...but until she starts paying for your schooling, who cares.

Arien:

Are you sure? I've seen a documentary about jobless people once, and they were talking about 70 pounds a week? (That's not much!)

We same the same doc, that's for someone that has never worked before.

voice of reasonThreads: - Posts: 41 Joined: Mar 18, 10 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 19:24 #160
king polkagamon: Indian average Last year we went on a fact finding mission to India, the 'top' strata of society consists of wannabe Britons whereas probably 90% of the population live in squalor, for a country that has been independent for 60 years you're not making much progress.

♂

Mar 18, 10, 20:18 #161

convex:

Decent wages are what people pay to get decent employees. I support decent wages for decent work, because I want to get the best possible people to work for me. I don't support decent wages because they are mandated by law.

I do the same. I believe that the good work deserve a good money. To get a best possible people is a key to a success. But I strongly oppose to take a men from the street, invest my money in time in him, send him to some courses and pay him a "decent money" from the day he start his work. All of that in the vain hope that somewhere in the future this man would develop some sense of guilt and start to repay me. Dammit. I am not running a charity. No one will pity me if I go bankrupt.

Arien:

So maybe you could explain something to me then, if I'm such a communist, how the hell people are supposed to pay for an education if they can't even afford their own home? Do you want to call me lazy then?

I don't call you lazy. But obviously you are doing something in the wrong way. I personally know people who finished their university studies having nothing more than a pair of strong hands able to work. Really.

Arien:

enkidu:
Especially if a decent life is founded by others - hard working people. More especially if the "decent" means (like in the UK) an own house, owning a car, holidays in Spain, plasma TV set etc.

You can't afford any of the above when you're on wellfare. (Maybe a cheap flat or an appartment.)

I really don't want to talk much about it, but I running my business in cooperation with the local Social Services (SS - for short), and believe me or not I have got an informations from the first hand - it is possible to live a good, calm life on the benefits. Sadly - most people who manage it are not British.

Arien:

enkidu:
Its clearly visible in the UK. At first they pay a huge group of people just for sitting at home.

Because no one invests in these people. Most of them are forced to sit home, but you don't get it, do you? (Probably because you're reading those tabloids and magazines all the time!)

They invested in these people to get them houses. Then to give them money. Then to support their children. And now we have got a second or even third generation of people, who haven't got any "family tradition" of work. They are think they deserve everything and owe nothing. Now you say - we shall invest more in these people just to get them out of their homes and local pubs. What next? Shall somebody invest a little more money just to keep them breathing and fill up these complicated benefit-claim forms? (Wait! It's actually happening right now.)
No - they don't need more comfort or care. Actually I think that what they need is a solid dose of despair and maybe even hunger.
And I don't read these tabloids. Actually I am a Polish immigrant living in London.

Arien:

No, they replaced your local working class, because most employers like the idea of having an endless supply of people they can pay less, and they're even happier when they don't have to promise anyone a contract or anything. (...)

And that's why you can buy cheap clothes, cars, food everything. Would you willing to pay more?

voice of reason:

I'm sick of Poles and other UNWANTED immigrants whingeing, whining, bleating, yapping, moaning and complaining about working conditions in this country, I look after the people I employ, all you want to do is MOAN, MOAN, MOAN.

Carry on moaning, I'll just keep running my own business, my own way, I'm happy, my workforce is happy, my customers are happy and if you're not happy, well that's just too bad.

The first part of your post is really touching. It is really good to know that there still are some employers who treasure happiness of employees more than the profit. Of course you are aware of the fact that sooner or later you will be overrun by your heartless competition simply because they will be able to provide cheaper, faster and more efficient? That's called capitalism. This is a rule of competition. And on this sad day you will find yourself among with all of your former employees standing in the queue at the Jobcentre. Maybe they will offer you some "home baked cake" you can survive on?

As for moaning. Workers from the Eastern Europe doesn't moan. They haven't got a time for it. They overtake a job market. They learn, they develop. They going up to the ladder. Step by step. Day by day. And you can't do anything about it. All you can do is moaning. And you doing it pretty well. Carry on, please.

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 18, 10, 20:50 #162

enkidu:

I do the same. I believe that the good work deserve a good money. To get a best possible people is a key to a success.

No you don't. Some of the best people aren't working right now, mostly because of incompetent people who are willing to work for less, and willing to risk health and safety for a few coins, and in doing so, they're undermining our rights.

enkidu:

But I strongly oppose to take a men from the street, invest my money in time in him, send him to some courses and pay him a "decent money" from the day he start his work.

Why? Are you afraid of the competition? (Who also happens to speak and write English far better than yourself?)

enkidu:

All of that in the vain hope that somewhere in the future this man would develop some sense of guilt and start to repay me. Dammit. I am not running a charity. No one will pity me if I go bankrupt.

It's good you're telling us all about your ideas of solidarity here, because this is exactly what England doesn't need. Ofcourse you know aswell as I do that you don't have to support this man on your own. Only 7.8% (Which are an awful lot of people!) of the total population are currently unemployed, which means 92.2% of the people can do something about that if they share the burden. (Which can't be much per capita!)

According to Yvette Cooper, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions:

"These figures show how important it is to keep increasing not cutting back on the help for people to get work. Unemployment is much lower than expected last year, reflecting the tough decisions families and businesses have taken to protect jobs, as well as the substantial extra investment in getting people back to work. But we know things are going to be tough for a while and we expect further increases in unemployment before the summer. That's why it's so important to increase help for people now, not cut it back."

Yup, you're reading tabloids.

enkidu:

Of course you are aware of the fact that sooner or later you will be overrun by your heartless competition simply because they will be able to provide cheaper, faster and more efficient?

Cheaper indeed, leave out the faster and more efficient please.

enkidu:

That's called capitalism. This is a rule of competition. And on this sad day you will find yourself among with all of your former employees standing in the queue at the Jobcentre. Maybe they will offer you some "home baked cake" you can survive on?

Competition? I'm all ears! But ofcourse these people should pay the same rent for a house or an apartment as the English people have to pay, and then we'll see if they're still willing to work for half the price. Now *that's* competition.

enkidu:

As for moaning. Workers from the Eastern Europe doesn't moan.

I'm sorry, but they do. (Mostly the guys though, because most of the Polish girls really work hard.) I've worked with Polish guys who didn't even last a morning, and some of them even came in drunk. I've worked with Polish guys who claimed they were Electricians, but they couldn't understand any technical drawings. I'm not trying to bash the Polish workforce here, but you're still making it sound as if you're somehow more competent, and you should know I really wish to dispute this. No hard feelings!

;)

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,459 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 20:51 #163
enkidu: As for moaning. Workers from the Eastern Europe doesn't moan. They haven't got a time for it. They overtake a job market. They learn, they develop. They going up to the ladder. Step by step. Day by day. And you can't do anything about it. All you can do is moaning. And you doing it pretty well. Carry on, please. They dont moan, hahahahahahaha!

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 978 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 20:53 #164
RevokeNice: hey dont moan, hahahahahahaha! That's a solid argument. You think you win, I suppose?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 21:11 #165
RN, enkidu has a point if you are talking about factory workers. Many are the 'grin and bear it' types. They tend not to be too vocal about things which get under their skin. Those in the service industry are pretty mouthy.

♂

Mar 18, 10, 21:27 #166

Arien:

No you don't. Some of the best people aren't working right now, mostly because of incompetent people who are willing to work for less, and willing to risk health and safety for a few coins, and in doing so, they're undermining our rights.

I suppose you are talking about you. Maybe you are more competent than the others, but obviously you lack something the other people got. They win. You loose.
As for the right - You have the right to remain free and to pursue the happiness. Pursue it then.

Arien:

Why? Are you afraid of the competition? (Who also happens to speak and write English far better than yourself?)

No I am not afraid of competition. Especially from you. I don't want to be harsh on you, but you know - I am running my own business and you are unemployed.

Arien:

Only 7.8% (Which are an awful lot of people!) of the total population are currently unemployed, which means 92.2% of the people can do something about that if they share the burden. (Which can't be much per capita!)

I am not saying if that a lot or not. I oppose the very idea that the hard working people shall pay for a better life of parasites.

Arien:

Competition? I'm all ears! But ofcourse these people should pay the same rent for a house or an apartment as the English people have to pay, and then we'll see if they're still willing to work for half the price. Now *that's* competition.

People from Poland are usually renting a flats or houses on the free market. If you did heard some news about real estate agencies that offer a special price for the Polish - let me know please. I might be interested.

Arien:

I've worked with Polish guys who claimed they were Electricians, but they couldn't understand any technical drawings.

At least this fake Polish electrician did took his chances. He tried and he failed. That's life. On the same time his British competitor has decided to watch East Enders for the whole day. :-)

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 18, 10, 21:59 #167

enkidu:

I suppose you are talking about you.

No.

enkidu:

No I am not afraid of competition. Especially from you. I don't want to be harsh on you, but you know - I am running my own business and you are unemployed.

I was talking about the English people there. I don't live in England, so I don't know how I could be your competition?

enkidu:

Maybe you are more competent than the others, but obviously you lack something the other people got.

Let's see, a rich dad? Wealthy friends? Luck? Helping hands? We'll see, because I'm not exactly finished just yet.

enkidu:

As for the right - You have the right to remain free and to pursue the happiness. Pursue it then.

I will, but that doesn't mean I won't try to speak up for people who are treated unfairly.

enkidu:

People from Poland are usually renting a flats or houses on the free market. If you did heard some news about real estate agencies that offer a special price for the Polish - let me know please. I might be interested

They don't offer a special price, but don't you think it's rather odd they won't allow a group of British people to live in one house and share the rent, but they do allow foreigners to live in one house to do just that?

enkidu:

At least this fake Polish electrician did took his chances. He tried and he failed. That's life.

That's not how it should work in life. See, some agency pushed him, but these agencies wouldn't ever push a Dutch guy who hasn't got any qualifications. In fact, these agencies wouldn't even push a Dutch guy who has all the qualifications! There's just no way in hell that a Dutch guy who's not an Electrician would even get a chance to waste someone else's time like that! But these agencies seem to be successful at pushing such people on our labour market simply because they're cheaper, and in doing so, these people manage to ruin a lot of chances and opportunities for qualified people who should've been working there, and it happens a lot.

There are certain rules, that's life.

enkidu:

I am not saying if that a lot or not. I oppose the very idea that the hard working people shall pay for a better life of parasites.

Someone who's willing to get him or herself out of a mess, and needs a bit of help to achieve this, isn't a parasite. It's good for you that you've had your opportunities and chances, but you should really keep in mind that some of these ''parasites'' you keep talking about, have also worked in factories where they are no longer welcome, and while they were working, have also paid taxes for *your* education. (And this is no different in Poland!)

;)

ArienThreads: 6 Posts: 1,604 Joined: Oct 20, 08 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 22:18 #168
Alright, let's cut it out, because it's pretty obvious that you and me have very a different opinion, but atleast my name ain't Scrooge.. ;)

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 18, 10, 23:02 #169

One last thing for you to consider: You have an estimated figure of 62.041.708 people who are currently living over there. According to the latest statistics, about 7.8% of the people are currently unemployed. This means you have about 4.839.253 people who are claiming benefits. (Officially!) What will cost you more eventually? Keep paying your taxes for all these people, or giving them a chance to educate themselves so they will also pay taxes? (Ofcourse there will always remain a few chronically ill or handicapped people though!)

I don't know about you, but I would like to do myself a favour and help as much people to a job as I could.

Thousands of workers are being short-changed by firms who refuse to pay the national minimum wage, a survey for union organisation the TUC found. Around 150,000 staff are being denied rate of £5.52 an hour for adults and £4.60 for 18 to 21-year-olds, it says. A TUC helpline for staff has been set up. Earlier this month, ministers said firms would face tougher penalties. Companies will now risk unlimited fines, with the most serious cases of non-compliance tried in a Crown Court. The way arrears are calculated will also change, boosting the amount of back pay due to underpaid employees. 'Scrooge employer' The TUC said the exploitation was "unacceptable", especially at Christmas when workers face greater financial pressures. TUC general secretary Brendan Barber said: "There should be no hiding place for bosses who are deliberately cheating their workers out of the minimum wage. "If you know somebody who is not being paid the minimum wage, now is the time to help them. If you know a Scrooge employer who is not paying workers a decent wage for a fair day's work, now is the time to report them." The TUC said it had been contacted by a homeworker paid between £2 and £3 an hour, and a Polish man working in a pizza store for a similar wage. Employers can be reported to the minimum wage helpline on 0845 6000 678.

What do these people have what I don't have I wonder? Uhm.. They're willing to work for something between two and three pounds an hour? Competition? Yeah right! I'm so going to try to compete with these people! Here, next time you get paid that much, just call this number: 0845 6000 678. You can do it. Grow some balls, speak up for your rights as a worker, show some solidarity with other working people, and help eachother to keep everything fair. You don't want to be treated like a slave either do you?

;)

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 18, 10, 23:23 #170

Arien:

but atleast my name ain't Scrooge..

No you are a very generous person indeed. At the some one else's expense.
And you still talking about ideas and dreams - this shall be this way, that shall be the other.

But the reality is harsh and simple. For every winer there has to be a hundred losers. Some people suggested you a certain solutions to your situation (like moving into the Germany etc). Try it. It always better to try. Even if it means fail sometimes - it will be you OWN fail. Don't sit and wait until the government will make your way broader and easier. Otherwise you are free to sit on your both hands awaiting the day that you dreams become true.

As for "parasites" and other related subjects, my philosophy is simple:
"Give someone some money for nothing and he will do exactly what he's been paid for. Nothing".

If the State cares too much for the people it deprive them of their free will. It reduces adult women and men to a child-like state.
I sympathize with your noble attitude.
But unfortunately I lived in the world where your ideas become reality. Someone take care of my education, my needs. I was told what to feel what to think. They care of everything. Somebody has decided for me what to wear, what to do and what is good for me. 8 hours of stable work everyday. Unemployment rate 0%. Holidays. Sick pay. Everything. All you have to do is to click in your hour-card every morning and avoid any independent thought at any cost. Like a cattle.

When I said that people who are living on the benefits need rather some despair and hunger instead of more comfort, I meant it. I know that the hunger is the great motivator (lesson learned in the hard way). I was in that situation. And I overcome it.
And I telling you this sense of freedom, self-respect, this feeling that I stay firmly on my own legs, owning nothing to no one - is magnificent.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,459 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Mar 18, 10, 23:28 #171
enkidu: ..... Are all Poles in the UK this uppity? The cheek of this invader.

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 18, 10, 23:37 #172

Arien:

One last thing for you to consider: You have an estimated figure of 62.041.708 people who are currently living over there. According to the latest statistics, about 7.8% of the people are currently unemployed. This means you have about 4.839.253 people who are claiming benefits. (Officially!) What will cost you more eventually? Keep paying your taxes for all these people, or giving them a chance to educate themselves so they will also pay taxes? (Ofcourse there will always remain a few chronically ill or handicapped people though!)

Also - the research shows that in any population 3-4% of people are unemployable for a various reasons. They simple don't get a job in any case. This makes your figure of 7.8% more like 3.8%
Some of this 3.8% wouldn't be interested in any form of education.
BTW - I don't believe in the myth that higher education is a way to combat an unemployment. Somebody has to clean the streets. You don't need to be graduate to do it.

And this number - 0845 6000 678. lol. Do you know what are the fines imposed on the unfair employers? This is a joke and smoke-screen.
Sorry I ignored the rest of your post - but this is pure propaganda.

♀

Edited by: Amathyst Mar 18, 10, 23:46 #173

enkidu:

I don't call you lazy. But obviously you are doing something in the wrong way.

You think? There are 1,000s of qualified people out of work in the UK, many of whom have experience and qualifications, there just arent enought jobs (recession and.... cheap labour masquerading as competition)....companies will not take a man with 7 years experience working as a qualified electrician as a shop assistant, 1. because he has no experience (yep thats the line they give) 2. because they know he will leave when something in his line comes up (hence excuse no.1) 3. Because there are 100s already in line before him...

I know Arien personally and I know he's a grafter and he is not out of work by choice, he is simply a victim of circumstances, full time electrician jobs are few and far between, he lives for contracts and in this economic climate, his services are not exactly in high demand.

If all Poles stayed in Poland, how do you think they would be? Poles only leave Poland because the standard of wages are SO low. In Europe it comparable and the unfortunately the job markets are similarly depressed...We are not prepared to work for less than we are worth...We have been used to certain standard, unlike Poles...sorry if that sounds harsh but its the truth.

The days of Western Europeans (skilled tradesmen) heading elsewhere for work for better money has gone..cheap labour has flooded the market, the Brits went to Germany in the 80, the Brits when to Saudi states in the 70s...these places are now flooded with work camps that not even dog would stand for and for wages not even a begger would stand for!

♂

Mar 18, 10, 23:56 #174

enkidu:

People from Poland are usually renting a flats or houses on the free market. If you did heard some news about real estate agencies that offer a special price for the Polish - let me know please. I might be interested

Well, there have been cases where housing syndicates have suddenly leased out housing to firms to house Polish workers. It was done at the expense of locals who'd had their names down for a while and were due to move in. It resulted in anti-Polish feeling against the workers, even tho' it wasn't really their fault.

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 18, 10, 23:57 #175

enkidu:

No you are a very generous person indeed. At the some one else's expense.

At who's expense? I never claimed benefits. (Even now I don't!) I've served in the military. I would've given my life for someone else. I'm fine with it if you disagree with me, but I don't think I appreciate your arrogance, and the way you keep talking about people you don't know a thing about..

Parasite this and that, while you've just been lucky someone decided to give you a chance in England. Ignorant twat. You're pretty oblivious to people around you, aren't you?

enkidu:

Don't sit and wait until the government will make your way broader and easier. Otherwise you are free to sit on your both hands awaiting the day that you dreams become true.

I'm not waiting for the government. You really don't get it do you? I'm not waiting for something to happen for me, I'm still trying to get a job, anywhere I can, and some people have suggested things and a few people even offered me a job, and in fact, I'm waiting for an answer as we speak. I will jump on the first plane available as soon as I recieve the green light.

enkidu:

And I telling you this sense of freedom, self-respect, this feeling that I stay firmly on my own legs, owning nothing to no one - is magnificent.

You keep comparing all the things I say to Communism. That's just bull. I'm a social-liberal. Which means I'm not ever going to tell anyone what to do. I embrace the idea of freedom, individuality, but I've said it a hundred times and I will say it again, I also believe in equal opportunity. Which means when people can't afford an education because no one is offering them a contract, there's nothing wrong with it to tell them you might have a job for someone. They will still have to do it on their own, but it would be cool if someone would give them a fair chance, and offer them a contract.

enkidu:

But the reality is harsh and simple.

Again, that's because people like you obviously like to keep it harsh and simple.

enkidu:

For every winer there has to be a hundred losers.

I firmly disagree, simply because you can make or break winners, and even the richest people could be homeless tomorrow. What? Do you honestly think you owe nothing to other people around you? Do you seriously think you've achieved everything all by yourself? No one has ever done anything for you? Your parents never clothed you? Your mother never fed you? No one has ever paid any taxes for you? No one has ever given you a chance to earn some money somewhere?

enkidu:

If the State cares to much for the people it deprive them of their free will.

I'm not talking about caring too much. I'm talking about offering someone a chance to make something out of him or herself, instead of pushing him or her into the benefit system and labelling them as lazy.. Do you honestly think all these people sit on their behinds all day because they love it? I'll be fair and square with you, some people might actually enjoy that lifestyle, but I can assure you that most people who are claiming benefits really want to work and really want to participate in society..

This has nothing to with Communism, and please, lay off the personal insults already, because you're not superiour and almighty just because you're running your own business. Most of my friends are running a business of their own, and it's not like they earn much more than I did as an Electrician. Yes, I've worked for myself, but it's simply not doable anymore due to all the undercutting, so unfortunately I have to start all over and do something else.

At the expense of no one I might add, because I'm looking for a job to support myself, and to realize my own plans. Unlike you, I'll be grateful and also acknowledge that I couldn't have done it without the person who gave me a chance.

I couldn't help but noticing how you've conveniently skipped my last posting, but I think you know it actually costs everyone more money to pay for benefits every year, than to help people to a job.. Now, what's so Communist about that? Someone gave you a job, right?

;)

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 19, 10, 00:21 #176

Trevek:

Well, there have been cases where housing syndicates have suddenly leased out housing to firms to house Polish workers. It was done at the expense of locals who'd had their names down for a while and were due to move in. It resulted in anti-Polish feeling against the workers, even tho' it wasn't really their fault.

Urban myth not more.

Arien - I didn't skip anything. And I didn't mean to be arrogant. I wrote about your personal situation only because you started this topic. Please accept my apologies.

We are dancing around a certain topic but nobody want to be first to say it loud.
The topic is: "Get the bloody foreigners out of our country! The grass will be greener, good paid jobs emerge, streets will be safer, weather nicer an everything will be like in old good times was!"

I understand that.
But I am afraid - the next day the immigrant left this country - would be the same day when half of companies would go bankrupt or overseas. And there be no work fo no one. Don't ever wonder why is everything so cheap in the UK? Because somewhere in the ASDA-or-whatever distribution centre, or on the farm - some poor immigrant is just being ripped off.
The question is: would you be willing to pay 20% - 50% more for the British product made on The Island by British people only?

Obviously - I just can't say anything what is not sounds like a provocation.
I'll better shut up.

(one last thing - you ARE a commie. Nothing to be shame of. Really)

voice of reasonThreads: - Posts: 41 Joined: Mar 18, 10 ♂	Edited by: voice of reason Mar 19, 10, 00:33 #177
I employ 78 British people in my logistics comany, Pick the bones out of that, Goodnight. I employ 78 peope so pick the bones out of that too, why are Poles so angry and so anti British?

AmathystThreads: 30 Posts: 3,898 Joined: Nov 10, 06 ♀	Edited by: Amathyst Mar 19, 10, 00:46 #178
To voice of reason, I was over joyed to hear you use the grad scheme..but..how about apprenticeships/on the job training? Thats what's lacking in this country now...

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 19, 10, 00:49 #179

voice of reason:

I employ 78 British people in my logistics comany, Pick the bones out of that, Goodnight. I employ 78 peope so pick the bones out of that too, why are Poles so angry and so anti British?

I have a deepest respect for you for supporting your own people.
I think - that how it shall be. I think it shouldn't be illegal. Really.
I also hope that there are others companies like your own. British-only companies who are happy to make a business with you just because yours is British. And I hope they are not tempted to switch to some other cheaper but foreign company for services. Such a network of British-run companies would be really something.
(disclaimer - no sarcasm meant. I really think that way.)
As for angry anti-British Poles. I am a proud supporter of UKIP, and over these years I developed kind of fondness for this country. Why do you think that Poles are angry? That's really interesting. (of course only if you wish to discuss it with me.)

♀

Mar 19, 10, 01:00 #180

enkidu:

Why do you think that Poles are angry?

I can answer that...there are some Poles that feel discriminated against and hard done to (I went to two dates with one who complained continously about how hard done to he was!)...there are plenty more I am sure like him...Poles have simply made a bed for themselves (http://www.clichesite.com/content.asp?which=tip+2381)

You create a situation and then you dont fully understand why you are treated the way you are being treated...

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