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No job unless you're Polish

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♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 19, 10, 01:01 #181

enkidu:

The topic is: "Get the bloody foreigners out of our country! The grass will be greener, good paid jobs emerge, streets will be safer, weather nicer an everything will be like in old good times was!"

Not really, no. (I know you vieuw anything I say with suspicion, and that's exactly what ticks me off, because I'm talking about showing some solidarity.) The point is that these foreigners should demand a normal wage, they should demand a healthy and reasonably safe working environment, and a normal contract, just like anyone else would. My problem is that most of these guys are undermining people's rights. We fought for our rights, and most of the foreign workers let these employers walk all over them, because they're already happy they earn something! They can return to Poland, and their money will be worth something.

enkidu:

Arien - I didn't skip anything.

I would like to hear your answer. Do you wish to pay taxes for benefit claims or do you wish to pay taxes for education and progression? (The latter will result in lesser benefit claims eventually, and a possibility of lower taxes for everyone.)

:)

enkidu:

Don't ever wonder why is everything so cheap in the UK? Because somewhere in the ASDA-or-whatever distribution centre, or on the farm - some poor immigrant is just being ripped off.

Did you know that supermarkets make ridiculous profits? They could keep their products just as cheap if they paid everyone their minimum wage, and still make a profit. If you guys want to solve these problems, you should all do whatever a British person would do, instead of exploiting all these flaws in their system at the expense of someone else. We should all get rid of these so-called slave wages. No more undercutting and shady business, and I think everyone wants qualified people for qualified jobs. But if you don't want to fight for your rights or demand a fair treatment, I'm not going to show solidarity with you guys either, because you're keeping the unfair competition alive and kicking! (I understand you want to earn money, but I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from aswell?)

enkidu:

(one last thing - you ARE a commie. Nothing to be shame of. Really)

Communists believe in a strong authority and limited freedom. I don't. I believe in strong individuals and freedom. I'm just wondering why some people can't keep it fair, and why they need all these lame excuses to keep other people smaller than them. Because that's exactly what a Communist would do.

;)

♂

Mar 19, 10, 01:14 #182

Amathyst:

I can answer that...there are some Poles that feel discriminated against and hard done to (I went to two dates with one who complained continously about how hard done to he was!)...there are plenty more I am sure like him...Poles have simply made a bed for themselves (http://www.clichesite.com/content.asp?which=tip+2381)

I hope you suggested he return to his polish paradise?

If you dont like it in a foreign country, leave.

♀

Edited by: Amathyst Mar 19, 10, 02:09 #183

enkidu:

Urban myth not more.

Not really, (no idea of reality in the UK) agencies have a good relationship it is guaranteed cash same as DHS only better rates - hence the reason more Brits are in homeless accomodation.

RevokeNice:

I hope you suggested he return to his polish paradise?

I told him to phuck off and stop moaning..that was the last date :D...

RevokeNice:

If you dont like it in a foreign country, leave.

True.

♂

Mar 19, 10, 02:31 #184

Arien:

We fought for our rights, and most of the foreign workers let these employers walk all over them, because they're already happy they earn something!

British employers in British factories break British law in order to make huge profit and pay a huge taxes into the British treasure. The British Employment Inspectors turn a blind eye on these violation because even they know that no ripp-off -> no huge profit -> no huge taxes -> no fun On the other hand - the British people who live on the benefit funded from the taxes are able to buy really cheap goods (like a beer in the price of water or used car for £500) thanks to this exploitation.
But you blame Polish workers who allow to be exploited. Hm....

Arien:

Post 172 :)

Arien:

Communist quickly realised that the only way to keep the people equal is the violence.
Social-liberals use taxation instead. Whole idea of socialism is to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. That is noble. Details are more complicated. For instance - there is no fun in being rich if you are hit by the 100% taxation. This is really other topic.

Amathyst:

You create a situation and then you dont fully understand why you are treated the way you are being treated...

Well - as far as I understand it's a good think that they are angry? They may decide to kick back in the groins of the non-scrupulous employers, right?

BTW - I honestly can't remember a single occurrence when one of my Polish friend would moan about discrimination.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,459 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Mar 19, 10, 02:55 #185
enkidu: Communist quickly realised that the only way to keep the people equal is the violence. The commies in the EU want a transient workforce, all mixed race, as it is easier to control them. The end game is the complete destruction of nationalist beliefs.

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 19, 10, 03:03 #186

enkidu:

For instance - there is no fun in being rich if you are hit by the 100% taxation. This is really other topic.

No social liberal will want to make employers poor. Most of us simply advocate mutual benefit, in the best interest of all people.

enkidu:

British employers in British factories break British law in order to make huge profit and pay a huge taxes into the British treasure.

They don't pay huge taxes, they pay the same taxes as everyone else.

enkidu:

The British Employment Inspectors turn a blind eye on these violation because even they know that no ripp-off -> no huge profit -> no huge taxes -> no fun

Because? Exactly. Because immigrant workers don't realize they have rights too, and that they should simply refuse to work for such employers. If they all did that, you'd see how fast these employers would turn around and pay you a normal salary. You know that the Polish are officially EU citizens, and they have rights, so they can't be sent home just like that, and they can always file a report to a labour or trade union, and they can always file a complaint to governmential organizations.

It's illegal to work for less than the minimum wage, so Polish people who are exploited should report their employers immediately. In Holland, a farmer got fined for 300.000 € because he didn't treat his Polish workers well. Guess what? The Polish workers also got compensated. It's not like everyone in the government is corrupt you know. Some people actually work there because they feel they have responsibilities. Okay?

enkidu:

On the other hand - the British people who live on the benefit funded from the taxes are able to buy really cheap goods (like a beer in the price of water or used car for £500) thanks to this exploitation.

Simple question for you: Do you know how cheap beer used to be? Before there were any immigrants? Answer: Much cheaper than it is now.

enkidu:

But you blame Polish workers who allow to be exploited. Hm....

Yes, I do, because they shouldn't be such a bunch of spineless whimps who are too afraid to lose their already worthless jobs! (I've lost many jobs because I refused to work for a slave-wage, so what? I'm still alive and kicking!) The Polish workers should understand that they have rights as EU citizens aswell, and that they should report it immediately whenever they're being exploited by these Scrooges, simply because it's illegal and against the law. The Polish workers and other foreign workers will also benefit from this in the long run. In fact, every working person in Europe will eventually benefit from this. It's called solidarity. It's called fighting for your rights.

If people refuse to let themselves be exploited, what do you think will happen to these employers if they don't start treating people fairly? Huh? Exactly, they will have to shut down their companies, and you can keep your doom-scenarios about outsourcing and the risk of companies moving elsewhere, because I'm 100% sure that this will leave space for more honest people to start a new company.

:)

RevokeNice:

The end game is the complete destruction of nationalist beliefs.

..and slavery.

AmathystThreads: 30 Posts: 3,898 Joined: Nov 10, 06 ♀	Mar 19, 10, 03:12 #187
enkidu: BTW - I honestly can't remember a single occurrence when one of my Polish friend would moan about discrimination. Liar!

ArienThreads: 6 Posts: 1,604 Joined: Oct 20, 08 ♂	Mar 19, 10, 03:20 #188
Oh, and another gem that is often used by these Scrooges to intimidate the workforce: If we have to pay people more, we will choose for machines. Okay Einstein. Next question: Do machines need maintenance by technically high-skilled workers? Answer: Yes. So bring on the machinery! Which means I will have to ask even more for my qualifications. Thank you. ;)

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 19, 10, 03:21 #189

Arien:

It's illegal to work for less than the minimum wage, so Polish people who are exploited should report their employers immediately.

Seriously though do you know how much is average fine for the breach of the Employment Act in the UK? If I recall it correctly - about £500. And that's what I call a blind eye.

Arien:

The Polish workers and other foreign workers will also benefit from this in the long run. In fact, every working person in Europe will eventually benefit from this. It's called solidarity. It's called fighting for your rights.

Obviously the Polish workers are quite happy the way it is. Shall they fight for the right of the British workers? Will British workers show them their support and appreciation?
Even if the United European Workers will win their battle - not everyone would be happy. The profits will go down, everything will slow down and the Chinese would pick up the ball at this moment. It's called bankruptcy.

Arien:

If people refuse to let themselves be exploited, what do you think will happen to these employers if they don't start treating people fairly? Huh? Exactly, they will have to shut down their companies, and you can keep your doom-scenarios about outsourcing and the risk of companies moving elsewhere, because I'm 100% sure that this will leave space for more honest people to start a new company.

And these honest people would start a new companies that will loose competition to the continental ones (due to the higher employment costs). This plan could work well under condition that somebody would be able to complete isolate The Island from the outside world.
(Just struck me. Commies did the same thing. They isolate the entire eastern block)

♂

Edited by: Arien Mar 19, 10, 03:54 #190

enkidu:

Seriously though do you know how much is average fine for the breach of the Employment Act in the UK? If I recall it correctly - about £500. And that's what I call a blind eye.

After several failed attempts by Parliament to increase penalties for breaches of health and safety law, the Health and Safety (Offences) Act 2008 (the "Act") came into force today.

The new Act makes three main changes - it raises the maximum financial penalties available to the courts, makes imprisonment an option for a wider range of health and safety offences, and makes certain offences currently only triable in the lower courts, triable in either the lower or the higher courts (meaning that more cases will be open to an unlimited fine and a term of imprisonment). The Act extends to both England & Wales and Scotland. Although it increases penalties for health and safety breaches, it does not impose any new obligations on employers by way of new offences. The principal duties of employers will remain as before under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 ("HSWA").

Previously, under summary procedure, courts have been unable to impose fines higher than £20,000 for a breach of the HSWA, or a fine higher than £5,000 for the breach of a regulation (for example, a breach of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999). The Act changes the law by increasing the maximum fine for summary cases to £20,000, and introducing a term of 12 months imprisonment. For those on indictment, the existing unlimited fine has been buttressed by the availability of a term of two years imprisonment for individuals under the Act.

It seems you recalled that all wrong. (And isn't that a fine for each employee?)

;)

enkidu:

Obviously the Polish workers are quite happy the way it is. Shall they fight for the right of the British workers?

I'm member of a labour Union, and I'm a member of a social liberal political party. (Not really active but still!) I have access to quite some information, and I can honestly tell you that most Polish people aren't happy at all with the way things are going. (In fact, some of them found out they didn't even recieve half of their payment after they had returned to Poland.)

enkidu:

Will British workers show them their support and appreciation?

I know many working class people will appreciate it, and they will show their solidarity once they see you're not trying to screw them over anymore, and you can expect people like me to even help you with the protests.

enkidu:

Even if the United European Workers will win their battle - not everyone would be happy. The profits will go down, everything will slow down and the Chinese would pick up the ball at this moment. It's called bankruptcy.

The profits won't go down. Because when more people can spend a bit more, it's going to be about quantity in sales aswell. (I wonder why you're deflecting some of my questions with lame comments about Communism though!) You let these people intimidate you too much really. Where will these Chinese workers go? They aren't EU citizens. Most of the uneducated Chinese people can't even communicate. Where will they live? Do you think the British people will stand for that? No they won't.

Bankruptcy? Don't be such a whiner! As if paying your employees a minimum wage will make you homeless! (We've done that for the past 50 years!) Weren't you the person who said that - and I quote - ''for every winer there is a hundred losers''? But ofcourse your logic doesn't apply when it comes to greedy, a-social little money grubbers who think they're allowed to screw over half the planet. Let me guess, you've had management training and you're hopelessly brainwashed by some business guru?

enkidu:

And these honest people would start a new companies that will loose competition to the continental ones (due to the higher employment costs).

What makes you think that paying your employees minimum wage - which is peanuts! - will make your company lose the competition? What do you propose to make a company competitive then? Do you want to pay your employees 0.50 € and hour, so they can compete with children in India? What about the rest of your economy? Will people be able to sell anything when no one earns a decent salary anymore? I'll tell you what you can do to make your company more competitive. Work smarter, and fire any manager who demands a ridiculous bonus. They should be more than happy with the salaries they're recieving right now, because they already earn about 60% above average. (Which means they're wealthy, and don't have to worry about a thing financially.)

enkidu:

This plan could work well under condition that somebody would be able to complete isolate The Island from the outside world. (Just struck me. Commies did the same thing. They isolate the entire eastern block)

I'm not advocating isolation, quite the contrary. I'm advocating stronger business partners and wealthy consumers. How about your philosophy? Übermensch: Managers? Üntermensch: Working class?

;)

♂

Mar 19, 10, 04:08 #191

Arien:

It seems you recalled that all wrong. (And isn't that a fine for each employee?)

;)

average
maximum

Always happy to help.

The Chinese wouldn't need to come here. They simply send everything what is your ethical and fair British company can produce but at cheaper price. And I am sure that the British people would choose more affordable option. That's enough.

And I would be grateful if you will cut down the amounts of epithets. I like good discussion but there shall be some boundaries.

ArienThreads: 6 Posts: 1,604 Joined: Oct 20, 08 ♂	Mar 19, 10, 04:18 #192
enkidu: Always happy to help. Ran out of clever replies? (Seriously, you don't seem to respond well to content, or factual information for that matter.) enkidu: I like good discussion but there shall be some boundaries. Good, because this discussion is over. (Between you and me atleast!) :)

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 978 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 19, 10, 04:21 #193
Arien: Good, because this discussion is over. (Between you and me atleast!) No it's not.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 19, 10, 23:09 #194
Enkidu, why are you a UKIP supporter? I know why I like Farage but do you?

♂

Mar 20, 10, 00:17 #195

Seanus:

Enkidu, why are you a UKIP supporter? I know why I like Farage but do you?

My reasons are rather complicated, but the shortest answer is: I think that I owe someting to this country. I also think that the UKIP postulates are exactly what is the best for the UK.
Even if eventually the UKIP would turn against me (ie if they decide to enter a more populist and anti-immigrant way) - it's a risk worth to take.

papagarthThreads: 3 Posts: 23 Joined: Feb 11, 10 ♂	Mar 20, 10, 02:14 #196
All I can say is, I got one job (through a temp agency ) because I speak some Spanish; in another case, I was sent back, because I'm not nearly fluint in Spanish. Sometimes, you do run into reverse discrimination, capitalism nonwithstanding.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 20, 10, 02:30 #197
It's a risk worth taking, enkidu, I agree. I don't think they are anti-immigrant or even will be. That's the exclusive terrain of the BNP.

♂

Mar 20, 10, 04:44 #198

RevokeNice:

manufacturer Forza AW

It's an Italian company, and with what poor management the UK gov't has on foreign firms I think it's our corporate leaders in Milan who have more of a say in this.

Seanus:

that would be The Daily Mail.

The lowest rated news source in the UK.

purplewolf:

Poles work harder, more efficiently and effectively

Thanks Stalin, how many times have I heard you correlate labor with ethnicity? Poles might have the intent to work harder when they come to the UK with penny-cash in their pocket and only have small jobs to choose from, with no money for an education, to send back home as expected, or to live; they work their asses off to get those essentials, something which the UK citizen is born into. Not to mention most are on a time limited work/study visa.

Torq:

50 million

Nope, 42 million. Wikipedia lies, I too change numbers for my own reasons on there. My source? The World Development Report of 2010 by the UN and World Bank supported by the CIA factbook.

Amathyst:

Why on gods earth would an ENGLISH person who lives in ENGLAND who would like a job in a meat packing factory want to learn Polish? We speak ENGLISH in ENGLAND, no? The factory is based in ENGLAND.

Because it's owned by Italians who have seen (look above) that the Poles are much harder and efficient workers. They simply want the superior human resource for the maximum output of product. Supply-side economics.

enkidu:

Of course - you understand that the Poles are just a drop in the ocean comparing to the overall UK immigration

VERY true. Here in the US as well. It's come to the point where you have lame bias too. In the UK I see, but in Chicago I experience it. I keep hearing dumbasses saying how there's more Poles in Chicago than Warsaw (which obviously degrades polish immigrants and culture as being quick to leave their homeland). However if you look at the numbers in recorded population censuses by the state government (even acknowledged by the Polish American Society) A little over a quarter of the Poles in Warsaw are in the Chicagoland area. But STILL you have Chicagoans complaining about the too many Poles in the workforce and what not. When the puerto ricans, Italians, and Germans here greatly outnumber the Poles.

mafketis:

British people have not historically minded when others are forced to speak English and/or discriminated against in hiring if they don't.

It's called the British Empire....

Havok:

You guys are f-ing missing the point!!!!!!!!!!!
MEAT PACKING FACTORY = SWEATSHOP

lol really? By the looks of it, it seems that it's for a fortune 500 job.....

RevokeNice:

The EU will be a distant memory in 25 years.

And so he says @_@

king polkagamon:

In each population there is the average(65%),the very competent(10%). ,the useless(10%)

Oh brother, you got that out of Karl Marx's works. Even in Mein Kampf Hitler pointed out that in every single human population there was a constant percentage that was "inferior" or as you say useless.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 978 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 25, 10, 14:46 #199
Just a sad reminder: Interesting story from page 10. http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/Inquiries/meat_inqui ry_report.pdf And of course - nobody was prosecuted in the effect of this report. Some "recommendations" were made.That's it. Probably it a Polish worker's fault as well.

dividedThreads: - Posts: 4 Joined: Apr 19, 10 ♂	Apr 20, 10, 00:10 #200
one for the original post, An advert in truckstop news, must have 5 years continental experience OK must have dangerous goods licence oK must speak polish ? ever get the feeling the drivers Wont be earning £40 000 pa dont come to the uk an moan about pay and conditions when migration has put us back 40 years.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,459 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Apr 20, 10, 03:13 #201
The poles will suck 1.8 billion out of this nation, again, just like last year. And still the scum claim they are "hard working". How are 50,000 living off the Irish taxpayer so hardworking........ What annoys the people the most, is the arrogance.

dtaylor5632Threads: 48 Posts: 4,348 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Apr 20, 10, 03:35 #202
RevokeNice: The poles will suck 1.8 billion out of this nation, again, just like last year. And still the scum claim they are "hard working". How are 50,000 living off the Irish taxpayer so hardworking........ Oh booooo hoooo, 1.8 whole billion, compared with the debts of Ireland its a pebble in the ocean. Go spread ur sh1t elsewhere.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 20, 10, 18:23 #203
Besides, the Irish government get a lot through taxes. The British job market is a joke in places anyway. Good workers are being kept out of work that would enable them to support their families. However, they must remember that immigrants are just competing and that the government has to get tougher and clampdown on undercutting and unfair practices.

♂

Apr 20, 10, 18:41 #204

Seanus:

Besides, the Irish government get a lot through taxes.

Not true. In 2007 a FAS survey showed us that the average immigrant earns just 440 euro per week. That is about 700 million a year in income taxes.(might be out by a few million, I done the maths in my head).

Most of this money will go on staple food which is 0 V.A.T rated and transferred abroad in the form of remittances, the contribution in consumption taxes and the 'multiplier effect' is very reduced. Of course there is a contribution to increased economic activity due to mass immigration but how much of this activity is generated by the public purse on immigrants which ultimately costs the citizens of the nation?

Now, consider the hundreds of thousands of citizens whom have been displaced from employment due to cheaper labour being readily available to employers and now consider the billions spent in the social services sector doe to this displacement.

At the end of the day, this is all beer mat conjecture as we are lacking governmental reports and research on the issue but do not anticipate any government to commission that research, as they may suspect what the answer is and would rather not have it exposed to the average joe.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 20, 10, 22:49 #205
That 1 million figure could be set aside for tax evaders :)

Chicago PollockThreads: 10 Posts: 638 Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂	Apr 21, 10, 07:04 #206
Ariens, i don't know what the situation is like in the EU but in the states when you can't get work you "hang your own shingle". It sounds like you're a contract worker but do you have your own contracting business? The reason I ask is because when I got fed up I opened my own business. I'm not getting rich but I'm working steady. You may be able to do same in EU. Just a thought.

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