How to create a perfect scapegoat?

Mister HThreads: 11 Posts: 845 Joined: Jan 4, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 22:02 #31
enkidu: Actual information: Before any citizen of the "new UE country" can claim any benefit in the UK, she or he is expected to work legally for a certain period of time. This period is now shortened from 12 months to 3 months. That's all. Three months is nothing ! Increase it to five years and then see how many come here.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 22:15 #32
Mister H: Three months is nothing ! Increase it to five years and then see how many come here. I would go one step forward - only the British citizens (or subjects lol) shall be entitled to receive the British benefits.

♂

Edited by: Mister H Mar 7, 11, 22:23 #33

enkidu:

Basically - as a Polish national I have got a right to live and work in the UK under the condition that I can support myself and my family. If I fail this - I can be legally deported. That is what Polish EU access treaty says.

I doubt very much that is being enforced and if it was then I am sure that the "human rights" brigade would be banging their drums.

The French tried to do similar and look at the hoo-har that caused !

enkidu:

I would go one step forward - only the British citizens (or subjects lol) shall be entitled to receive the British benefits.

I wouldn't go that far but it should be based on what has been paid in.

Three months of NI and tax is nothing.

alexw68

Mar 7, 11, 22:25 #34

enkidu:

I would go one step forward - only the British citizens (or subjects lol) shall be entitled to receive the British benefits

We all admire your work ethic, enkidu - but what about the following situation:

You and you wife/partner have been working for 2 or 3 years in the UK, really pushing it, overtime and all sorts, so you have a nice long history of National Insurance contributions. Your partner becomes pregnant, and early scans indicate that a Caesarian is likely to be the best solution for you, and so it might be in your best interests to stay put rather than chance you arm with the NFZ or return to Poland and go private.

Frankly, British citizen or not, you deserve as a net contributor to the economy to be able to say "I'm staying here to raise my child, as I have a job here which will enable me to contribute". Why should you not be claiming child benefit?

(Which doesn't change the fact that EU law allowing claims after 3 months is ridiculous if unenforced)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 22:43 #35
Mister H: I wouldn't go that far but it should be based on what has been paid in. You have been repeating that for a some time here, could you elaborate ? What do you mean?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 7, 11, 22:47 #36
I suspect we might see the introduction of a system which is based on input - probably 12 months work needed to access benefits irrespective of nationality.

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 7, 11, 23:10 #37

alexw68:

enkidu:
I would go one step forward - only the British citizens (or subjects lol) shall be entitled to receive the British benefits

We all admire your work ethic, enkidu - but what about the following situation:

You and you wife/partner have been working for 2 or 3 years in the UK, really pushing it, overtime and all sorts, so you have a nice long history of National Insurance contributions. Your partner becomes pregnant, and early scans indicate that a Caesarian is likely to be the best solution for you, and so it might be in your best interests to stay put rather than chance you arm with the NFZ or return to Poland and go private.

Frankly, British citizen or not, you deserve as a net contributor to the economy to be able to say "I'm staying here to raise my child, as I have a job here which will enable me to contribute". Why should you not be claiming child benefit?

(Which doesn't change the fact that EU law allowing claims after 3 months is ridiculous if unenforced)

I am not talking about medical issues here. I believe that no matter if someone is a a payer to the system or not - he (or she) shall receive free medical treatment to save his life. Why? Because this is Europe. No mater if we are talking about Poland, UK or any other part of the Europe - this is civilised land and we have got obligations to save human in danger of death.

Child Benefit is a quite different matter. Nobody forced this theoretical Polish family to live in the UK. It was their choice. It is their own risk they freely taken upon themselves. They have got their own country to come back if their are unable to support their own child in the UK.

Mister H:

enkidu:
I would go one step forward - only the British citizens (or subjects lol) shall be entitled to receive the British benefits.

I wouldn't go that far but it should be based on what has been paid in.

Why? I certainly would go as far. And I am an immigrant. Every immigrant has got a right to apply for the British citizenship after 5 years of living here, paying a taxes and contributing to the community.
If someone would do this and additionally if he would respect the tradition of this land, learn English, show real commitment to the Queen and "britishness" - he would become a British subject.
At this point he shall be entitled to every benefit and help that this island may offer.

Of course - this wouldn't be quite fair if you consider the native British. They, and their fathers and theirs grandfathers has contributed a lot to the well-being of this country. Comparing to this - 5 years of paying taxes by the immigrant is nothing.
Nonetheless - this is more fair than the current state of matters.

As I said before - Only the British citizens shall be entitled to receive the British benefits.

To answer the question that may arise - No, I have got no plan of becoming a British citizen. I respect this country, I live here, but I am Polish. I was born this way and I will die as such. I decided to start my new life on this island. This was my personal choice and my personal risk. I do not expect the British taxpayer to pay a bill for that.

♂

Mar 7, 11, 23:11 #38

Ironside:

You have been repeating that for a some time here, could you elaborate ? What do you mean?

I actually haven't posted on here for some months, so you have a very good memory :-)

I think that a person's record of NI and tax (of that of the parents in the case of very young adults) should be taken into consideration when a claim is made for benefits.

The more that is paid in, the more help that is available if is needed.

A foreigner from an EU country that has lived here for a year and probably paid less than five grand in tax and NI (maybe more if part of a couple, but still very little) can claim for child benefit, housing benefit, council tax benefit and maybe even be in a council house etc while sending their children to state schools and using the NHS ! It is is a joke and an insult !

Similarly a pregnant British teenager that comes from a family where no one has worked in the last twenty odd years getting the same is almost as bad (I say almost as I would expect a British born citizen to have a basic entitlement).

The system stinks.

♂ [Suspended]

Mar 7, 11, 23:27 #39

enkidu:

show real commitment to the Queen

Is this really a necessary condition to gain British citizenship? If so how does one go about showing it? By sending her a nice card, or buying her a present, or does a British secret service agent telephone the prospective citizen and pose as a monarch from another country, like Juan Carlos of Spain, and say mean stuff about Liz to see if the prospective citizen objects?

♂

Mar 7, 11, 23:32 #40

Des Essientes:

Is this really a necessary condition to gain British citizenship?

No.

Des Essientes:

By sending her a nice card, or buying her a present

A nice idea. Send the present to me and I'll check if it's suitable to pass on to Her Majesty. 'She' like's' 22 carat gold.

Des Essientes:

does a British secret service agent telephone the prospective citizen and pose as a monarch from another country, like Juan Carlos of Spain, and say mean stuff about Liz to see if the prospective citizen objects?

All the time, works a treat.

♂

Mar 7, 11, 23:32 #41

Des Essientes:

enkidu:
show real commitment to the Queen

Is this really a necessary condition to gain British citizenship? If so how does one go about showing it? By sending her a nice card, or buying her a present, or does a British secret service agent telephone the prospective citizen and pose as a monarch from another country, like Juan Carlos of Spain, and say mean stuff about Liz to see if the prospective citizen objects?

By not burning puppies on the Remembrance Day. (First thing that comes to my mind)

♂

Mar 8, 11, 01:01 #42

enkidu:

By not burning puppies on the Remembrance Day. (First thing that comes to my mind)

I think you meant the guy that was burning poppies ;-)

I don't want to take the thread in a totally different direction, so I won't say what I think should have happened to chap you refer too.

enkidu:

Of course - this wouldn't be quite fair if you consider the native British. They, and their fathers and theirs grandfathers has contributed a lot to the well-being of this country. Comparing to this - 5 years of paying taxes by the immigrant is nothing.

You're quite right and that has always been my argument although I do think that five years is a point where foreigners could maybe start claiming certain benefits.

I always thought that twleve months was far too short a time. Three months is almost as though those behind such ideas actually want to cause trouble.

Someone that has lived here from birth and worked for many years will fall on hard times and be declined for some benefit or other while someone else speaks through a translator and gets money thrown at them.

It only takes a single British person without children to need the help of the state and be compared against someone fresh from the boat with a pregnant wife and two children to see how unfair the system can be.

One day, it will all kick-off and it will start in a housing office, job centre, benefits office or similar.

When that day comes I'll be glad to be white, have a British passport with a British town under "place of birth" and have an English accent. Everyone else take cover !

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: enkidu Mar 8, 11, 01:10 #43
Mister H: Everyone else take cover ! I will. Thank you. ;-) Why do you think the British government doing this to this country? There has to be some logic reason behind this. (BTW - burning the puppies is quite cruel - You're right :D )

Mister HThreads: 11 Posts: 845 Joined: Jan 4, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 11, 01:14 #44
enkidu: Why do you think the British government doing this to this country? There has to be some logic reason behind this. I really do not know and I wish I did is the honest answer. I will need to sleep on it and get back to you :-)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Mar 8, 11, 13:12 #45
Mister H: The system stinks. Sure it does, any system with deliver large chucks of monies into politicians hands. Mister H: The more that is paid in, the more help that is available if is needed. I don't think that it works quite like that. I think that monies are being spend freely by politicians! Also, I think that any-system which compel people to pay is simply an abuse and tax in disguise!

♂

Mar 8, 11, 14:19 #46

What amazed me at first when I come to live in the UK is the impression that this is a country under the occupation by the foreign power. It seems that the every aspect of "britishness" is targeted and destroyed. Slowly, but systematically.
The children are told that the British Empire was entirely evil an that they shall be ashamed of it.
Famous red Routemasters in London were scrapped. Red phone boxes replaced with the new non-descript design. Old guys from the British Legion were told to better be quiet and to not sing their "silly" patriotic songs publicly. Even the St George flag has become "hot and controversial topic". In England!
I agree - these are just symbols. But on the other hand - symbols are the grid on which the national identity is build.

Another shock for a newly arrived guy like me: handouts. Numerous benefits offered to us. Believe it or not but this aspect of life in the UK was a total shock for us - Polish guys. Nobody expected this. And nobody asked for that kind of treatment.
But then I met a guy from Albania. He told me that he is NOT ALLOWED to work and support himself while his asylum application is being reviewed. (for 3 years). 3 years of holidays paid by the taxpayer.
Then I learned that the asylum seekers have got a privileged position over the natives. They are first in the queue to receive council houses etc.

At this point I started to asking myself "Why the British government hates their own people? What kind of madness is that?"

I think I found the answer.

It's about power and power only. New Labour has constructed system where the government is in total control of people's lives. First they rob people of their money. Then they give it back.
The people are told: "Look - 30% of your income are benefits. You will not survive without our help. We will take care of you - just vote for us". I know this well from People's Republic of Poland.
Mr Cameron is trying to disassemble this system. This is a huge mistake. I think the Labour would win the next election and will rule for ever.

Of course - even the "commies" from New Labour knows that the economy has its rights and that the crisis in this system is unavoidable. I mean real crisis - when the bread become luxury. They know that the people will be angry at them.

That's why they need a scapegoat. And we Polish are perfect target.
Although we are just a drop in this deluge of immigrants - we are the one being deliberately targeted.
I am sure that when the time will come - the people wraith will be directed at us.
We will pay the price.

♂

Mar 8, 11, 14:46 #47

Havok:

lol, what kind of effed up system is that? Wow, i get 250 for being Polish... I'm scheduling my next VK in London to pick up my money.
BTW what is wrong with your government?

Thank you,someone honest for a change and see's this for what it is,people getting rightly p!ssed off at an over soft touch government...or series of governments. You claim you are joking,but in p!ss take veritas fella

Teffle:

Wow. I'd almost forgotten the Daily Express existed. Much lower profile than it used to have maybe?

It's basically the Mail with the emphasis on neuroses turned down and the pomposity turned up isn't it? It kind of used to be anyway.

Perfect sumation :) Missed out the obsesion with the horse faced hooker princess diana....

enkidu:

show real commitment to the Queen and "britishness" - he would become a British subject.

Which ironically means show a total lack of commitment to or respect for the queen ,thats "britishness" :)

enkidu:

I am sure that when the time will come - the people wraith will be directed at us.
We will pay the price.

nah,your way down the scale mate.......starts at dark brown in shemaghs and slides down the degrees of islam first....

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 8, 11, 15:05 #48

isthatu2:

nah,your way down the scale mate.......starts at dark brown in shemaghs and slides down the degrees of islam first....

I wouldn't be so sure. Attacking them would be racist, wouldn't it?
Attacking us is much safer.
Last week two polish guys were deliberately run-over by a car on the pavement.
Few weeks ago three Polish families home were set on fire.
Cars with the Polish plates are destroyed almost everyday.
Polish guy was stabbed to death on the tube station.
It's the beginning.

The ground for attack Poles is already prepared. That's why there are a lot of articles like the one quoted in the first post.
Have you ever read article about "Bloody Somalians living on the benefit, stealing jobs, hunting swans and having a knife culture"? I don't.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Havok Mar 8, 11, 17:44 #49

enkidu:

I wouldn't be so sure. Attacking them would be racist, wouldn't it?
Attacking us is much safer.
Last week two polish guys were deliberately run-over by a car on the pavement.
The ground for attack Poles is already prepared. That's why there are a lot of articles like the one quoted in the first post.
Have you ever read article about "Bloody Somalians living on the benefit, stealing jobs, hunting swans and having a knife culture"? I don't.

I feel like I'm being torn apart by this inside.

Polish people living in the UK should organize and boycott the handout. Right... and that’s going to happen..

Maybe some kind of campaign of PR would help. Well, Polish British of PF now is your chance to help by speaking out loudly and clearly against this. Not here, out there to your friends, coworkers at churches.

British government has made a very bad decision, this is going to have a ripple effect on how other nationalities in EU perceive us. Are we going to be those white trash soviet block beggars for the next decade or do we have some pride left in us to say NO!! Rise above it, say it: go shove that dole up yours, this is not a solution to a problem, give us jobs, I want to earn my money working, we’re better than this.

Btw I know there are no jobs there, but in my opinion throwing money at the problem is not the solution. That’s why the people in the Government get paid the big bucks to come up with acceptable solutions to a problem.

♂

Edited by: grubas Mar 8, 11, 22:46 #50

I have a question,after 3 months of work in the UK I am entitled to how many weeks of GBP 250/week unemployment benefits????

enkidu:

Attacking us is much safer.
Last week two polish guys were deliberately run-over by a car on the pavement.
Few weeks ago three Polish families home were set on fire.
Cars with the Polish plates are destroyed almost everyday.
Polish guy was stabbed to death on the tube station.
It's the beginning.

And you have a problem with unemployment benefits for Polish people?What is wrong with you???Look,to most of them (Brits) you will ALWAYS be an poor EASTERN European immigrant.Wheter you take the money or you don't it makes no difference,in their eyes you are still poor EASTERN European immigrant.So what is your problem with taking the money?Milk them as much as you can.Take the money,say "Thank you" and lough all the way to home.I may do it myself since I have only 36 weeks left.

♂ [Suspended]

Mar 8, 11, 23:05 #51

grubas:

I have a question,after 3 months of work in the UK I am entitled to how many weeks of GBP 200/week unemployment benefits????

They aren't 200/week.

enkidu:

Attacking us is much safer.

Poles did attack plenty of Brits (and each other) too, don't forget.

One of the rather underreported things is just how much crime was brought to the UK - a friend of mine is of the opinion that Poland simply exported the criminal scum to the UK.

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 11, 23:07 #52
delphiandomine: They aren't 200/week. Ok the OP says it's GBP 250/week,so how many weeks?

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: delphiandomine Mar 8, 11, 23:09 #53

grubas:

Ok the OP says it's GBP 250/week,so how many weeks?

Not true either, it's from a tabloid rag. The truth is that a single Pole will get about 50 pounds in cash (so what, about 900zl a month) plus some accomodation paid for.

In terms of weeks? Unlimited. But you'll be forced to lose your dignity as the government sends you to job interviews for humiliating jobs such as factory floor cleaning - and worse, you'll have to prove that you've been applying for jobs.

Hardly worth it.

And furthermore - reports from the UK suggest that the UK has been zealously enforcing the "habitual residence test" - more or less disqualifying anyone who is clearly there to claim benefits.

♂

Mar 8, 11, 23:48 #54

Ironside:

I don't think that it works quite like that. I think that monies are being spend freely by politicians!
Also, I think that any-system which compel people to pay is simply an abuse and tax in disguise!

You don't have any choice if you pay NI and tax. Everyone does.

enkidu:

What amazed me at first when I come to live in the UK is the impression that this is a country under the occupation by the foreign power. It seems that the every aspect of "britishness" is targeted and destroyed. Slowly, but systematically.

Five or so years ago I wouldn't have agreed with you, but it's obvious now. The Labour government were anti-British and wanted to destroy as mush of the British way of life a possible in favour of some multi-cultural utopia that will never exist.

What you get instead is the British fleeing the inner-cities and leaving them to the immigrant under-class.

There was a report leaked to the press a year or so ago admitting that the Labour Goverment wanted to "rub our noses" in multi-culturalism.

enkidu:

Cars with the Polish plates are destroyed almost everyday.

I've been tempted to drag a key along the side of Foreign registered cars (not just the Polish though, just all EU plated cars) but I would never actually do it. I get hacked off that they swan about without paying road tax / MOT like the rest of us.

grubas:

I have a question,after 3 months of work in the UK I am entitled to how many weeks of GBP 250/week unemployment benefits????

Basic JSA (Job Seeker's Allowance) is about £50 per week and after six months you would be expected to be in work. You can also be deported after six months of not working.

However if you have a family with young children you will be quids in.

delphiandomine:

One of the rather underreported things is just how much crime was brought to the UK - a friend of mine is of the opinion that Poland simply exported the criminal scum to the UK.

The UK's immigration policy is meant to attract the "brightest and the best" according to the speeches, but what we end up with people speaking jibber-jabber everywhere you go that look blankly at you when you ask them a question in English.

I don't know much about the crime figures, but those from the "new EU" are some of the biggest defaulters when it comes to loan and credit card repayments.

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Poland Now and Then	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 00:49 / May 27
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com