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American father's son is in Poland, [he's] told to pay child support....

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ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Jun 27, 10, 23:10 #1
Illinois is attempting to force a Frankfort man to pay child support for a son who allegedly was kidnapped by his mother 10 years ago and taken to Poland. http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2390340,CST-NWS-gerardo14.article

MatowyThreads: 1 Posts: 519 Joined: Jul 4, 09 ♂	Jun 28, 10, 03:19 #2
That is strange, there is more to this case than is being publically stated.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Jun 28, 10, 06:58 #3

Matowy:

That is strange, there is more to this case than is being publically stated.

Not really. There's a parental pro-mother bias in most countries whether Poland or the US. My friend's wife, who's a divorce attorney says she hates accepting male clients with children because it's so difficult to get a shared custody and much less a full custody for them.

Just look at this guy, took him 5 years to get his boy back that his "vacationing" wife took home to Brazil and never returned. Each and every child convention was violated, when she died her new husband kept the kid; fortunately the biological father didn't give up. Yeah, I wish the feminism movement, which supposedly is about equality between the genders, took up this as their cause. Parents should be judged as parents whether male or female...
My mother used to chair a local chapter of the Feminist Party (feministiskt initiativ - F!) in Sweden but she left it because of their strong anti-male views. She (and I) wants equality for both genders and NOT to replace one type of discrimination with a different one. Oh well, hope the guy prevails, and gets his kid back. A court ruling is a court ruling.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-12007-504083.html

♂

Edited by: ZIMMY Jun 28, 10, 15:01 #4

On the surface, it would seem that the judicial systems are Draconian for men. Here, an American father was given custody by a U.S. court; the child is kidnapped by its mother, who flees to another country, and has the rules changed in her favor.

You will not find an example where men "kidnap" their kids and have laws swayed in their favor.
-

Skysoulmate: "My mother used to chair a local chapter of the Feminist Party (feministiskt initiativ - F!) in Sweden but she left it because of their strong anti-male views."

...and yet, some women in these forums still don't get it. They prefer to protect their many advantages and not demanding 'real' equality.

♀

Jun 28, 10, 16:39 #5

Matowy:

That is strange, there is more to this case than is being publically stated.

I think so too.

how do we know hes not abusive? why did she leave in the first place, its only
partial story, which has a beginning, this is the tail end of it, she left 10 years ago
and one of the posters said the teen didnt want to see his father.. I wonder why??

most children want to, whether there is bad feelings or not between parents, its
their choice, if he was a bad father or if he abused the mother or little boy, certainly
he would remember and be glad there was such distance between them.

in any case, the whole story isnt posted. And it doesnt appear that hes went out of
his way to pay child support either and is collecting off his dead wifes money so
sound to me like a deadbeat.

♂

Jun 28, 10, 17:59 #6

Patrycja19:

how do we know hes not abusive?

I knew that this is the sort of reasoning that defenders of this injustice would use. Your question could be true for anyone during any litigation. In any case, the U.S. courts didn't seem to find him abusive. How do you know she wasn't abusive?

Patrycja19:

one of the posters said the teen didnt want to see his father.. I wonder why??

Ever hear of parental alienation? It's when a custodial parent constantly says negative things about an ex spouse and the child or children grow up hating the other parent.
http://www.keepingfamiliesconnected.org/ (nice video with the article).

Patrycja19:

t doesnt appear that hes went out of
his way to pay child support either

Are you daft? From the link: "But Serrano has Cook County court orders that say the boy was "unlawfully removed" by the mother to Poland, Serrano should have full custody of his son, and, as the custodial parent, he does not owe child support."

Patrycja19:

collecting off his dead wifes money so
sound to me like a deadbeat.

He was lawfully collecting money just as millions of women do when their spouse dies. Not surprisingly, you bought into the "deadbeat dad" nonsense; that's how successful the feminization of the west has been. Always doubt the male; always believe the female.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Jun 28, 10, 18:03 #7

Patrycja19:

I'm sorry Patrycja, I enjoy debating with you but your comment is as sexist and as cold as it gets. So you are also blaming him for the death of his first wife or for collecting money for her death?? His wife was killed in a car accident and he should be getting payments, that's what that type of insurance is for, to at least partially replace the lost houshold income in such tragedies. Can't believe you even brought that up, how is that even related to his second-kidnapper wife?

As far as alimony payments, in kidnapping cases an attorney usually advices the client not to make any payments but rather to lock it in a trust. A payment is viewed in some countries as an acknowledgment of the status quo. Why did the kid say he didn't want to see the father? Have you heard of parental brainwash? Happens every day in parental disputes and applies to men and women.

The attorney I'd mentioned earlier said what you just mentioned is a typical response she gets if a woman doesn't get her will in court -> there MUST have been abuse, and that's why she hates taking on men's cases because in her own words -> if there's "he said she said" then the man is pretty much defenseless.

Just because some, a very tiny minority of men are abusive the rest of us, and we are the vast majority have this suspicion put on us whenever there is a case such as this.
The fact is -> a family lived together in the US and decided to have a child. For whatever reason they split up and a US court, a court with a jurisdiction on this issue, decided in his favor. That alone is amazing as the vast majority of similar cases are always supportive of the mother. So instead she escapes to Poland and kidnaps the child. That's what she did and if she ever comes back to the US that's what she is going to be arrested for - kidnaping, her child or not. Now she also wants the money and you say, "well, there must have been something else in that case..." How about an appeal?? That's how we deal with outcomes we don't like. A parent kidnaping a child is a criminal whether a man or a woman. To use the typical "how do we know if (fill in the blank)..." is a bunch of bs. It's up to the courts, NOT us to judge.

This guy was raped, yes raped by his former wife and now she wants him to pay child support for the child she kidnapped. Seems very similar to what the Brazilian woman did, she too tried to get the kid's father to give up all legal fights or she'd sue for child support even though she kidnapped her kid. Her new husband was a lawyer so it was even easier for her. Karma is a ***** and the kid is now with the rightful father and she isn't around any longer. I don't know if the guy in this case was abusive or not. IF he was it should've been brought up by the court and not us. What we know is that she broke the law and was never punished for it, now she's going even further. Disgusting.

My mom's work with the feminism movement showed me many ugly aspects of men/women relationships. For a while we even used a room in our house as a temporary shelter for abused women so yes I know the ugly side of this and as a young boy promised myself I'd always be kind and gentle to women. I think I've fulfilled that promise.
However, my mom also warned me that women too can be mean, ugly and manipulative when trying to score a point. So no matter what the issue there is I should always look at the both sides of the equation and to always let the judicial system run the show rather than to judge based on emotions.

Therefore I don't care what else there might have been in this case. The court has spoken and one person in this tragedy decided to deal with it in her own way by stealing the child. It's as despicable as it gets and I'm sad you feel the need to use your trumph card of "maybe there was abuse..." simply to defend a criminal act.

If we are ever to reach a true equality than we all have to learn to obey the law - all of us, men and yes Patrycja, women too. Disappointed with your "if in doubt - men are always wrong" view in this case.

♂

Jun 28, 10, 18:13 #8

I've known of other cases which involved women kidnapping the child from the custodial father and years later, sometimes many years later, demand that the aggrieved father pay child support even though the father was given no visitation rights let alone was unaware of the child's location.

The fact that this was even attempted is proof of how 'entitled' women feel when it comes to their superior rights.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Jun 28, 10, 18:16 #9
ZIMMY: The fact that this was even attempted is proof of how 'entitled' women feel when it comes to their superior rights. Zimmy! Fight for the law changes, stop blaming women. You just don't get it, do you...

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Jun 28, 10, 18:26 #10

pgtx:

Zimmy! Fight for the law changes, stop blaming women. You just don't get it, do you...

I agree with you and fortunately more and more judges start seing the value of fatherhood and are more impartial in divorce cases. I'd also add -> stop blaming men. It would be nice if women too could support men when they feel their rights were violated. Whenever a woman is hurt I'm always there to support her. In cases such as this some women look for excuses to defend the woman simply because she's "one of their own". I think that's sad and self defeating.

People like to gang up on Zimmy and I too disagree with some of his views, however many times he's is right on the money but folks discount his views just because they think he dislikes women due to some bad past experiences he might have had. I say try to look past your disagreements and you'll see that often he's correct.

♂

Jun 28, 10, 18:31 #11

pgtx:

Fight for the law changes, stop blaming women.

Stop excluding women from blame. I blame the vast feminist organizations for this nonsense. They have been very effective and male manginas and other female fellow travelers have done absolutely nothing to prevent these perversions in law, and there are more of them than you care to realize. Just to rattle off one out of dozens of examples; women have special health department offices which men are denied.
http://www.womenshealth.gov/owh/about/
It would seem that when it comes to law as well as culture women are quite comfortable being special; "animals more equal than other animals" to quote Orwell. That's my complaint.

Women who say, "I'm not a feminist" but continue to go along without doing their part for real equality are also to blame. Like most modern women, you live on the surface. Try digging a little deeper.

MEMBER ♀

Jun 28, 10, 18:39 #12

ZIMMY:

Stop excluding women from blame.

learn how to understand what you read... i don't blame only men, i don't blame only women... the law is to fix...
i have many divorced friends and they have never have any problems, both, men and women have equal rights and it all works out well... as for other who struggle, there are many ways to fight for your rights and i'm sure they are aware of that...
so far, i don't feel as it's my cup of tea...

♂

Edited by: ZIMMY Jun 28, 10, 18:39 #13

skysoulmate:

Whenever a woman is hurt I'm always there to support her. In cases such as this some women look for excuses to defend the woman simply because she's "one of their own".

Feminists call that "the Sisterhood". Does this scenario sound familiar"

woman; "he hit her, what a terrible man he is, she is so abused."
woman; "she hit him, what did he do to her to make her hit him ?"

That's female logic.
-----------------
pgtx: "so far, i don't feel as it's my cup of tea..."

You make my point, thank you. Why fix something where you have advantages........right?

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Edited by: pgtx Jun 28, 10, 18:41 #14
ZIMMY: woman; "he hit her, what a terrible man he is, she is so abused." woman; "she hit him, what did he do to her to make her hit him ?" That's female logic. nobody said it's right to do... ZIMMY: You make my point, thank you. Why fix something where you have advantages........right? didn't you think that i may be fighting for other stuff, which actually make a part of my life?

♂

Jun 28, 10, 19:02 #15

pgtx:

nobody said it's right to do...

Lol, we've all heard women cheer when a man's been hit or kicked by another female. They even laugh. Comments like, "you go girl" or "he deserved it" etc are typical. And here is the crux of the matter; feminists in much of their literature deny that men can be victims. It's a gender thing with these narrow minded bigoted females.

pgtx:

didn't you think that i may be fighting for other stuff, which actually make a part of my life?

It's true that women think of themselves first (to a much higher degree than men who frequently help or rescue women even at their own peril). This aspect of what I call 'me-ism' in women is very pronounced as evidenced by their frequent demands that men do something for them. Men are pro active and women just have to be there. Women just take the social niceties as 'a given' - while failing to give back. In short, women demand all the pick-and-choose equality they deem noteworthy (like being on business and government boards) while also retaining the traditional female advantages without giving them up.

As to divorce laws, men know that they have an uphill fight, and women know it too.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Jun 28, 10, 19:10 #16
so Zimmy, what do you do to help out? any organizations you're in? give us tips, meet up times, what to do, where to help... I'm sure some of people here would be interested...

♂

Jun 28, 10, 19:49 #17

pgtx:

what do you do to help out?

You don't have to join a group although that wouldn't hurt. It would show that you are a citizen in good standing with the whole of humanity, not just half of it.

Do what's right. When your women friends begin to dish men (and you know you've heard that often), you can come right up and say, "that's not right' and correct them. You can be bigger than they are by judging people as humans first, not just by gender.

From across the room, I've seen a couple of women do this in mixed company when women began to bash men. One woman in particular got some 'looks' from her friends for daring to go against "the sisterhood". That's the price you may initially pay but it's well worth it.

If more women did those 'home grown' corrections with their female acquaintances, than more women would get the picture. And to the manginas here, you guys are even worse for being such butt-kissing weaklings. Every now and then I'll hear some guy say something like, "I'll ask the boss" referring to his wife. I shape him up right away.

Going to the beach, nothing like showing off my abs :}

♀

Jun 29, 10, 19:07 #18

skysoulmate:

So you are also blaming him for the death of his first wife or for collecting money for her death??

wow, what a twist of words coming from you, yeah , that would be cold of me to say
but I didnt say it like this, so maybe you should read a little better.

I didnt blame him for his wifes death. I said he is collecting , why is this relevant to
say to the public, why would the media include such personal things? does this
have anything to do with his case with his ex wife in poland? no

so why mention hes collecting from his first wifes death? that is a sad attempt from
the media to make me feel sorry for someone who could or couldnt be guilty.

Im not saying she was right in any way, if she left with the child against a court order
and he had full custody then she is /should be held responsible..

but people leave for reasons, we heard his side only, so your the one being sexist
because you are believing that his story has truth when we dont even know if he had
true custody before she left because it says he did, she might have already left for
poland and he went and started a case to get full custody and was awarded without
her even attending , which can happen, because I have a daughter who I have full custody of , and there are plenty of absent parents who dont show up the judge awards
custody to the parent who attends court and then what???

its not like they go out and get them, they dont even have a chance to defend themselfs , he could have been filing for custody to prevent her from going, who knows
the whole story, I didnt call all of the men of the world deadbeats, but I am entitled to
my opinion, as well as you, and please dont tell me you dont call women BI-*ches
when you feel the need, because everyone on this earth has said something to each
other or the opposite sex when in conversations with others or just in the moment
of anger..

I questioned it, maybe prematurely as you with calling him deadbeat, not hearing
the whole story, but you know as well as I do there are many deadbeats out there
Im not about to sugarcoat it, Zimmy and his all feminists-mangina followers, people
say things, out of anger, or whatever doesnt mean they are feminists!!

and Congratulations on being nice to women, I have had men try to punch me
while under the influence of drugs ( tea) while I was sleeping, dragging me out of
bed while his kids sleep, yeah * fkr* he did this several times, and I said oh, its just
the drugs, then I wised up, he came home drunk one time and I threw his arse across
the room, I stopped what was supposed to be my arse-beating. became his.

then he has the balls to tell my brother, who said a man who hits a woman is a man
who cant hit another man ( who told him you wanna hit someone hit me) he ignored
him and said well you should have seen what she did to me!!

what because I fought back??? because I stopped his excuses and gave him what he
deserved!!!! Fk that.. yes I have my opinions, and if they seem sexists, so what
everyone says it at some point, we all have experiences that might not be up to par
so stop coating it with sugar , it is what it is,, Zimmy fails to see others might have
had these experiences.. and he also fails to see others are not feminists.

I have two brothers who I love very much, both would protect me same as I would them
and if we have a problem, we dont sugarcoat anything, it is what it is..

my brother says there are deadbeats out there, is he sexists?? he knew a couple of deadbeat fathers who went out drank away their kids food/shelter etc.
I dont know any deadbeat moms , you know why, cause I dont associate with them.

right now i have a friend, whom I been helping get thru some tough times in her
life and i came right out and told her how it was.. whos the parent around here?
cause she and her significant other fought so much, drank etc ,that the kids were
just running all over them!!

when I said that it hit home and I said WTF?? you have kids , a home , who the heck
do I speak to about all the issues I see going on cause neither one of you are acting like
adults!!

yeah, so anyways.. have to work.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Jul 21, 10, 08:41 #19

Patrycja19:

wow, what a twist of words coming from you, yeah , that would be cold of me to say
but I didnt say it like this, so maybe you should read a little better.

Sorry about the late reply, lost the link to this thread...

I couldn't understand your post because you were making assumptions about this man simply because he is a man. In my view the courts should be the ones judging, not you or I.

If we makes disparaging comments here then we're judging one side and I disagree with that because we don't have all the facts, the courts do. The courts rule in favor of the woman more than 90% of the time, at least here in the US according to an article in USAtoday a few years back. Yet I still support court rulings because it's a better alternative to letting you and I decide or tell someone what he should or shouldn't have done. NOT our place to do that. It's like us telling a raped woman to avoid short skirts next time. Totally irrelevant. Besides, never, ever kick someone who's down, man or a woman.

We all have our biases, I do and so do you as you just described helping out your friend. Therefore you and I are unfit to make impartial judgments here.

I believe in a gender blind rule of law, ideally both parents should share custody, but if impossible some kind of compromise should be reached. If a man or a woman takes the law into his or her own hands by kidnapping the child for example (the link below), that parent has lost all credibility and rights as a parent in my view (and every court's view too). That parent is now a criminal.

The typical "but he did this and he did that" is something a court should've looked into, not one parent alone.

That's my view on it and again, I'm very well versed in the plight of abused women, my mother ran a shelter in Sweden and I know there's an evil side in some men. However, to arbitrarily punish all men by making empty accusations and innuendos is wrong and that's why I disagreed with your post.

This thread summaraize how I feel about this issue:
http://www.polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/help-spread-message-vi deos-canada-poland-international-child-45008/

ps. no spell checker today, sorry

uneducateddad

Dec 11, 11, 00:51 #20

iI think it is about time in 2011 equal rights become just that EQUAL if not WE as a society should just go back to the way things were in the 40's & 50's where mommys stay at home & daddys go out & work. Except that being it is 2011 the law, courts, government & the Feminist movement join the rest of us & STOP treating mothers & fathers so DIFFERENTLY. Backwards is backwards. The law is the LAW it is NOT based on SEX DISCRIMINATION . Except where it comes @ inforceing it. IGNERANCE of the LAW is NO excuse for breaking it NOR is Knowing it any excuse for the COURTS condoning the breaking of it or THEMSELVES breaking it routinly. The COURTS & PARENTS should be held accountable for the breaking of the LAW. child abuse is still abuse weather mom, dad or the COURTS commit it or condone it

♂

Dec 13, 11, 16:37 #21

uneducateddad:

iI think it is about time in 2011 equal rights become just that EQUAL if not WE as a society should just go back to the way things were in the 40's & 50's

The success of male-bashing feminists is evidenced in law. It's evidenced in culture. It's evidenced in false suppositions like the phony wage-gap. It's evidenced in special departments in both business and government that are 'for women only'. It's evidenced in health care spending, and it's evidenced in their 'pick-and-choose' jobs, etc, etc. Still feminists and their fellow travelers complain like shrill banshees.

In child support issues, there are men who have been made to pay for children who are not theirs. No penalties are applied to women who have cheated on their husbands and then claimed the child was his. Males who support these misandric laws are pitiable manginas. They have been brought up in weakened feminized cultures and are incapable of over viewing the human condition, instead, they seem trapped in it.

Most women have been educated to 'feel' they are victims. That explains the huge chip on their shoulders (not all women). In the end, no good can come of it as the human race will once again reset to mother nature's directives. Nature will triumph over false nurture.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Dec 17, 11, 23:03 #22
Canadian dad in Poland wants his sons back. http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=22200 From the link: "Canadian authorities issued an arrest warrant for Edyta Watkins when she first abducted the boys, but Canada and Poland have no extradition treaty, so her criminal wrongdoing will go unpunished as long as she remains in Poland."

♂

Edited by: grubas Dec 17, 11, 23:18 #23

Very one sided story.F u c k this Canadian,they should teaser motherfuker on Okęcie and send back where he came from.

ZIMMY:

From the link: "Canadian authorities issued an arrest warrant for Edyta Watkins when she first abducted the boys, but Canada and Poland have no extradition treaty, so her criminal wrongdoing will go unpunished as long as she remains in Poland."

So what?Poland should give away its citizen because some ******* Canadians want her?Forget it.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 17, 11, 23:30 #24
Doesn't the Hague Convention on Child Abduction apply here?

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Dec 17, 11, 23:35 #25
Seanus: Doesn't the Hague Convention on Child Abduction apply here? Whatever.Why should obviously biased Canadian court's decision matter?She and kids are in Poland and it should be up to Polish court to decide.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 17, 11, 23:50 #26
Um, PIFL anyone?

♂

Dec 18, 11, 00:19 #27

grubas:

Why should obviously biased Canadian court's decision matter?

As we all know, courts almost always default custody to the mother. For men to obtain custody, they have to prove the mother was negligent in some manner. The Canadian court heard the evidence that she was abusive and gave the kids to dad.

What we do know is that this woman kidnapped the children which adds to her dubious character. She seems to have attempted 'parental alienation' as well. This also reflects on her character.

grubas:

Poland should give away its citizen because some ******* Canadians want her?Forget it.

It isn't some Canadian but a father who has legal custody of his children.
If you support kidnapping children by the non authorized parent then just say so. The dad seems like a very concerned parent.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Dec 18, 11, 07:08 #28
ZIMMY: It isn't some Canadian but a father who has legal custody of his children. If you support kidnapping children by the non authorized parent then just say so. The dad seems like a very concerned parent. Exactly. If the father rather than the mother has been awarded custody there must be a very good reason. grubas: bviously biased Canadian court's decision Biased how?

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Dec 18, 11, 22:03 #29
JonnyM: If the father rather than the mother has been awarded custody there must be a very good reason. Awarded by a CANADIAN court! JonnyM: Biased how? Are you that thick?In case like this would you rather want to be judged in an English or a Polish court?

♂

Dec 21, 11, 00:17 #30

Here is a shocking case from Australia. .... and yet, some deny that men are discriminated against in law and culture.
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=21439
From the link: "The father was given rights of access to his daughter by a family court. They were very minimal rights, allowing him to see his child only two days out of every two weeks, but Mom decreed that to be too much. Indeed, she ruled that any contact at all was more than she desired, and so she permitted none."

"That of course violated the court’s order, so what did the court do? Did the judge order her to comply? Did he order custody changed? Did he order the child brought to court and placed in the care of the father? Did he force Mom to pay the father’s attorney? Did he fine her? Jail her? No, the judge did none of those things, even though they’re all in his power. On the contrary, he rolled over and let her do what she wanted. Mom wanted to deny her daughter a father and the judge said “OK by me.”

So the child is denied her father and the father is denied interaction with the child. What happened to the "best interests of the child"? How could a woman violate previous court rulings and not be punished? How could a judge let her get away with it in the first place? While this is an extreme example of how men are treated in western societies when it comes to law, it is nevertheless the tip of the proverbial iceberg that shows how bad, in various degrees, men are treated in law.

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