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Why dont americans want a universal health care system?

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posts: 2725

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Dec 23, 09, 00:27 #841

labor cost even in your capitalist country is not more than 5-10% in total cost.
most of costs are material and energy costs.
materials and energies are already on and under your lands which are belong to all citizens.
in capitalist countries too, they say all lands are belong to all citizens, but, you pay for materials, etc. you are being cheated by fancy words of capitalists.

and, hospital building is one time, initial investment work. can be done even voluntarily in a few months by all ordinary folks who will use the hospital for free for many years.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Dec 23, 09, 00:28 #842
nomaderol: labor cost even in your capitalist country is not more than 5-10% in total cost. Labor is VERY costly.

nomaderolThreads: 7 Posts: 1,213 Joined: Oct 18, 09 ♂	Edited by: nomaderol Dec 23, 09, 00:32 #843
they tell you so.. i been also in manufacturing business and done business in many different industries with usa and europe countries and know what labor cost is.. isnt more than 10% of total cost.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Dec 23, 09, 00:33 #844
The last time I got something fixed, labor was the most expensive part of the bill.

nomaderolThreads: 7 Posts: 1,213 Joined: Oct 18, 09 ♂	Dec 23, 09, 00:35 #845
you talking about the repair, blacksmith repairments. they are 90% labor costs. such works are not 10% of works where money flows and stocked.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Dec 23, 09, 00:47 #846
lol, blacksmith? Be serious.

nomaderolThreads: 7 Posts: 1,213 Joined: Oct 18, 09 ♂	Edited by: nomaderol Dec 23, 09, 00:55 #847
i very serious. ok, was it whitesmith? (dont you know blacksmith work?) btw, money is mainly in production industry and i talking about the labor cost in products. take a car which is sold for 20000 usd. labor cost in it is not more than 1000-2000 usd. think production rate is about 1 car per minute at a factory and imagine labor cost in 1 minute.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Dec 23, 09, 11:45 #848
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2009/12/page-14 8-of-health-care-bill.html

yip79

Jan 3, 10, 14:28 #849

tj123:

Why are you so concerned with the issue? You are obviously quite happy with health care where you live. There are plenty of people who have suffered at the hand of socialized systems as well...you seem to think they are superior...it's very odd how you think. You seem extremely concerned with issues that have no impact on your life.

Yes, tj, some people do care about what happens to other people. Some people do not only think about themselves and to hell with everyone else, some people actually do have hearts and actually do worry about people they don't know and that live on the other side of the world. It upsets me to hear people like you, it really does, but perhaps selfishness is what your country was built on.

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Jan 3, 10, 15:21 #850

Here it is, fairly simple:

In Poland, normally you are hit with 37% of your salary towards ZUS. 20% is paid by the employer, and 17 and some change by the employee. Median income per person in the USA is about $2200 a month. That gives you a bit over $800 a month for you and your employer to fund your disability and health insurance. Or $374 a month if you're financing it on your own.

So, we're talking about 15.4% of the population in that situation, and not the poorest 15.4 either. Medicaid covers roughly the bottom 13% with Medicare insuring a little over 15% of the population (who are going to be on the low end of the income spectrum...as retirees usually are). This doesn't take into account state programs like SCHIP and free clinics, I'll leave them out for now.

62% of Americans under 65 are covered under employer health insurance.

HMO plans aren't all that expensive. For a wonderful family in Chicago with two adorable kids, a plan with a $1000 deductible, 70/30 coinsurance with a max out of pocket of $5000 would pay $639 a month. A bit high? Take out the kids, and you're well within the $374.

The health care bill simply mandates that the 15.4% of uninsured people must buy healthcare. I guess you could call it health pork. Why not just redefine what can be sold as health insurance so that people can't be dropped as easily? Make the contracts longer? Without government intervention, pricing meets demand. People are going to Mexico because it's dirt cheap. Globalization can't just be applied to manufacturing jobs... How much better is a US Dr. or a US Lawyer that they cost 25x more than an Indian one? That's exactly the question that was asked when we were talking about answering phones or doing taxes...

dogloop	Jan 10, 10, 03:11 #851
Ya lets just have the government run everything even our every day lives.We as americans have given up more and more freedom in the past fifty years its sickening!Universal healthcare is just another way for big brother to control us a populace.

dogloop	Jan 10, 10, 03:16 #852
our country was built by hard work and innovation not hand outs!

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 10, 10, 09:15 #853
dogloop: our country was built by hard work and innovation not hand outs! Actually, if you take a look, corporate welfare had a pretty large role in the recent rapid expansion of the 20th century. This healthcare bill isn't a handout to individuals, it's a handout to insurance companies and health care providers.

inkrakow	Jan 10, 10, 13:55 #854
dogloop: our country was built by hard work and innovation not hand outs! Do you know that you've just spent $700bn of taxpayers money to bail out your 'innovative' and 'hard working' banks? If that's not a handout I don't know what is.

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Jan 10, 10, 15:07 #855

dogloop:

our country was built by hard work and innovation not hand outs!

Your country may have been built like that but that is along gone story.

Right now it is a country based on handouts. The Federal Reserve is one such private organizations that relies solely on taxpayer's handouts. The Government Motors, the banking so called "system". No bid contracts in Iraq are another example. Heck, the whole war in Iraq is one big handout to arms manufacturers and dealrs.

Americans went with the handouts farther than Marx and Lenin could have dreamed about. And they too did not give a squat about the working masses.

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Jan 10, 10, 15:36 #856

Here's why an American By Choice -or a European American does NOT want the European style universal health care in the US.

I'm new to this forum and signed up for a totally different reason but then I saw this thread... There are way too many posts for me to read it all but here's my quick take on the subject.

I live in the US now and have for the last 15 years. I personally believe an illegal alien who has no health insurance at all gets better health care here in the States than a citizen of Sweden for example. My mother (lives outside Stockholm) had to wait for over a year for her brain tumor surgery. In the US if you have no insurance they'll still perform the surgery but if you can't handle the bills you might end up filing for bankruptcy but if you do you will restructure and few years later be back to normal - while staying healthy! My former neighbor is from Guatemala and has lived here for 6 years without a work permit (Note! I'm not condoning illegal immigration - just telling a story as I saw it).

His wife was diagnosed with leukemia and was treated for it at a top notch hospital even though she had no insurance. Unfortunately after a year or so her body gave up and she didn't make it. Her husband did exactly what I just mentioned, filed for bankruptcy and I didn't even know you could do that without having a work permit. Nevertheless, 2 years later he still lives here, has a job and his medical bills are all gone... Not a perfect system BUT most countries have their own problems. I just mentioned my mom's ordeal in Sweden, in a country where the health care was supposedly pretty good... Well, not always...

Universal health care ultimately leads to rationing of health care because a country can raise taxes ONLY so much.

Just my take on it and I hope the US will NOT learn from the European countries when it comes to the health care, taxes, work regulations, bureaucracy, etc, etc. The US is NOT perfect but I fly for a living and get to see visit many countries regularly - we have it pretty darn good in the good 'ole US of A.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! ;)

inkrakow

Jan 10, 10, 15:53 #857

Err... Your friend's wife died. Your Mum lived. I'd say that's US 0: Sweden 1.

skysoulmate:

I personally believe an illegal alien who has no health insurance at all gets better health care here in the States than a citizen of Sweden for example.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to talk about the standard of healthcare received by an average, working and tax paying American and his/her equivalent in Sweden? Or are you proud of the high quality healthcare received by illegal immigrants? Seems a bit strange to me.

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Jan 10, 10, 15:57 #858

skysoulmate:

Just my take on it and I hope the US will NOT learn from the European countries when it comes to the health care, taxes, work regulations, bureaucracy, etc, etc.

Well, you have a unique perspective and make some good points and I don't want universal health care either but that story about your buddy passing on his bills to everyone else is complete BULLSH.T. That's exactly why health care needs to be revamped so bad. Somebody has to pay for all that treatment he got mostly for free. That somebody will some member of the working middle class who is not illegal. How the hell he can declare bankruptcy and still be here is beyond all comprehension to me.

king polkakamonThreads: 1 Posts: 1,018 Joined: Dec 30, 09 ♂	Jan 10, 10, 16:02 #859
skysoulmate: the US if you have no insurance they'll still perform the surgery but if you can't handle the bills you might end up filing for bankruptcy but if you do you will restructure and few years later be back to normal - while staying healthy! I cannot believe it.Advise how to steal the system and exchange your personal freedom for debt.Absurd.Somebody has to pay after all.Who?Who?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jan 10, 10, 16:28 #860
I recently had a tennis injury. I'm in Poland. In the state system I would have to wait 6 months for herabilitation. In the private sector it was immediate. I pay insurance for the state system and then I buy my own insurance for private care. Then again, I spent two weeks in a hospital in Paris when I lived there. I saw the bill for over 20,000 euros. I paid something like 20 euros.

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Edited by: PlasticPole Jan 10, 10, 16:35 #861

scrappleton:

I don't want universal health care

Scrappy, there is something you aren't getting. Universal Health Care already exists. The question is, who foots the bill. If they hand the bill to the poor people it doesn't get paid. Hand the bill to the govt, it might. That's what it's about. You either have someone pay these bills, or you just let them pile up unpaid. Which is it?

It all boils down to ethics and human decency. You just cannot let people suffer, so you provide them health care when they need it. Then, someone's got to pay for it. Access to health care isn't in question here.

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09 ♂	Jan 10, 10, 16:41 #862
PlasticPole: Scrappy, there is something you aren't getting. Universal Health Care already exists. No it doesn't .. not in the traditional sense. Not yet anyway. So you're telling me that right now anyone who wants free healthcare in the US can simply walk in and be treated for free?? No they can't.. that's universal healthcare, Plastic. Unless you have concocted your own version.

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Jan 10, 10, 16:43 #863

scrappleton:

So you're telling me that right now anyone who wants free healthcare in the US can simply walk in and be treated for free??

YES, they can go into an emergency room and be treated and they use the emergency rooms a lot. They don't go to the doctor, they go to the emergency room. Since they are so poor and the ER is one of the most expensive places in Health Care, they don't pay the bill. Then it sits unpaid. This happens so much in the US, it's a huge problem, it causes bankruptcies of hospitals. That is what the obama administration is trying to stop. Before you say, don't admit them to the ER, think again. In a civilized society like ours, you cannot turn sick people away and not treat them. It's just wrong.

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Jan 10, 10, 16:49 #864

PlasticPole:

YES... BUT IT'S NOT FREE!!!!! That's not universal health care.. It's not factored into the tax code as of yet. Plus, people who do that are a small percentage.. most people don't get that free pass.. they must pay the bill, should they decide not they can go bankrupt sure and give up: Credit cards, mortgages, new car loans, schools loans.. ad infinitum.

There's hardly universal state run all encompassing health coverage yet. This is what the whole debate of this thread is. Before you upbraid me on what I do not know, perhaps you should get your terminology correct?

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Jan 10, 10, 16:53 #865

For some reason my "reply" function doesn't work so I'm using copy & paste instead...

"Err... Your friend's wife died. Your Mum lived. I'd say that's US 0: Sweden 1."

No, my mom did not live very long after the surgery... The "small" tumor had become a large tumor after the lengthy waiting period...

"Wouldn't it be more sensible to talk about the standard of healthcare received by an average, working and tax paying American and his/her equivalent in Sweden? Or are you proud of the high quality healthcare received by illegal immigrants? Seems a bit strange to me."

You make a valid point. In my observations the average quality of health care is about the same in the US and in Sweden. However when it comes to highly specialized procedures the US wins hands down, great medical schools and obviously the size of the economy helps in research. Also, the speed in receiving care, MRIs, CT scans, etc is much, much faster in the US. In Sweden you have to schedule each scan whereas in the US they usually get it out of the way on day one. I have family members who are nurses and one doctor in several Scandinavian countries. I also have very close friends working in health care in the US so I try to stay balanced. BOTH systems provide good health care however the bureaucracy in Sweden is incredible. ...and it's not great here either however no one waits months and months for a surgery here...

...and no, I'm not proud of the high quality health care the illegals receive here, just tell you how I saw it... This country is so ashamed of the slavery period in its history that they'll never do anything that might seem racist. That's why there's the affirmative action (some call it the reverse discrimination) today, and that's why no one really wants to secure our borders. The politicians are afraid of being labeled racist. So the system will continue whether people like or or not...

This whole issue is a pretty sensitive subject for me and I usually do not discuss it a whole lot so I'll reply to a few posts here today and then will visit this thread from time to time...

In conclusion - both are ok systems but I prefer the American system... I'd rather go broke but maintain my health rather than die while waiting for free health care... I know it's an extreme position but I witnessed that extreme with my own eyes... At the time we (my parents and I) believed the doctors who kept telling us a "few" extra months here or there which turned into another "few" more months which... wouldn't hurt her chances but now I know better...

Wish everyone here a great 2010...

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Jan 10, 10, 16:58 #866

scrappleton:

YES... BUT IT'S NOT FREE!!!!!

None of it's free, Scrappy. Even poor people with crappy jobs have to pay taxes. There's going to be a tax on the middle class. The alternatives are worse. If you let the people continue to use the ER, it's going to cause costs to rise across the board and it will be worse than a tax increase on the middle class.
Before you type "but it's not free" please, consider your words. It is never free. Not even universal health care is free. There is always a cost. Europeans pay for their health insurance, just not in the traditional way, and they get what they pay for.
We could have a good system in the US, one that could improve our people, make them more productive.

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Jan 10, 10, 16:58 #867

"Well, you have a unique perspective and make some good points and I don't want universal health care either but that story about your buddy passing on his bills to everyone else is complete BULLSH.T. That's exactly why health care needs to be revamped so bad. Somebody has to pay for all that treatment he got mostly for free. That somebody will some member of the working middle class who is not illegal. How the hell he can declare bankruptcy and still be here is beyond all comprehension to me."

I totally agree, I simply described what I saw... I disagree with illegal immigration and think it's wrong, HOWEVER I could not turn my back on our neighbors who were good people trying to better their lives by using a loophole OUR country has created. I blame the system - NOT them...

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09 ♂	Jan 10, 10, 16:58 #868
skysoulmate: I also have very close friends working in health care in the US so I try to stay balanced. BOTH systems provide good health care however the bureaucracy in Sweden is incredible. ...and it's not great here either however no one waits months and months for a surgery here... Well said.. your anecdote is all the evidence I need frankly. Sorry about your mom. Good luck in 2010.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Jan 10, 10, 17:04 #869
skysoulmate, you might want to try reopening your browser or open a new tab. Sounds like it might be an error that's causing the quote function to not work.

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Jan 10, 10, 17:04 #870

PlasticPole:

None of it's free, Scrappy. Even poor people with crappy jobs have to pay taxes.

I know it's not free per se... Good God, you are either stupid or are just being argumentative. Universal health care does not exist in the United States as you stated earlier. It's not covered in under the taxpayers umbrella like in Europe. Get your facts straight. WC Fields was right about children apparently.

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