Why dont americans want a universal health care system?

krysiaThreads: 26 Posts: 3,604 Joined: Aug 10, 06 ♀	Jan 17, 10, 05:02 #931
skysoulmate: Folks, open up your hearts and your wallets Some people don't have anything in their wallets. Obama took it

krysiaThreads: 26 Posts: 3,604 Joined: Aug 10, 06 ♀	Jan 17, 10, 05:30 #932
skysoulmate: Krysia - I'm a fiscal conservative and I agree with you on many things but I'm proud we're sending money and help to Haiti and hope we'll send more! I was only joking.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Jan 17, 10, 07:23 #933

krysia:

Some people don't have anything in their wallets. Obama took it

Sorry Krysia, not buying that. I too am not happy with what's going on in Washington right now but unless someone lives on food stamps to say we have nothing to give is just disingenuous. Haiti slums even before this catastrophe were being compared to the conditions of Mumbai, India. I love to explore places but in India I almost hate to leave the hotel because the poverty outside is just overwhelming. You want to give tips to every kid you see but when you do you get swarmed by hundreds - and authorities tell you not to do that.

Many have seen the movie "Slumdog Millionaire" - the slums look just like what you see in the movie except they're EVERYWHERE. I bet you my personal belongings in my regular flight bag are worth more than some of those folks make in the span of many months, maybe even a year.

Either way, giving is always voluntary and it should be. If someone doesn't want to give, fine - just don't. However we shouldn't be looking for excuses - "Obama took all the money, Bush ruined my savings account, etc." - there simply aren't any...

The poorest citizen in the US would be a middle class citizen in some of these places - and I've seen many...

krysia:

I was only joking.

Ok, my apologies then.

Na razie.

krysiaThreads: 26 Posts: 3,604 Joined: Aug 10, 06 ♀	Jan 17, 10, 08:24 #934
skysoulmate: Sorry Krysia, not buying that krysia: Some people don't have anything in their wallets. Obama took it geez chill out, it was only a joke!

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Jan 17, 10, 09:53 #935
Chillin' as we speak. It's all good.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,478 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Jan 17, 10, 11:54 #936
skysoulmate: We should help and knowing the American people we will help in a big way. Indeed just as you did with New Orleans right, you should have said "America under Obama".

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Jan 17, 10, 12:07 #937

After reading all these posts, it seems no country has really solved the health-care problem. State health services are by definition costly adn ined=fficient bueacracies. Maybe the answer is to have a private medical industry (health professionals, pharmaceutical industry, insurance firms, etc.) as in the USA but closely price-controlled by the state. The army of govt auditors needed to keep them in line would cost less than charging $5 for one aspirin tablet administered in a hosptial, because the insuarance will pay for it. Atcual wholesale price of one tablet may be 1-2 cents.

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Jan 17, 10, 12:19 #938

Polonius3:

closely price-controlled by the state.

The better solution would be to stop providing subsidies. If people can't pay for it, the price will drop. Insurance is already subsidized in the US. Stop covering trivial treatments with insurance, and actually use insurance for emergencies. Procedures that are not covered by insurance have been going down in price, while those which are covered skyrocket because no one, other than the insurance company, has any interest in how much it costs.

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Edited by: Babinich Jan 17, 10, 12:32 #939

jonni:

Yes. Worth sending some cash to one of the Haiti appeals. They really need it now.

They do... and they need catastrophic aid... But the following question should be asked:

Background
-------------
Over the last fifty years Haiti received over eight billion (real) dollars in Development Aid. The purpose of development aid is that it should be used to increase productive investment. Unfortunately, when such amounts on money is not accounted for it typically gets consumed.

It's the purpose of catastrophe aid is get consumed.

Question
----------
What happened to all that developmental aid?

Don Boudreaux makes a very important point:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-haiti-earthquake-and-economic-freedom /

The UN should not be the fiduciary of catastrophe aid:
http://pajamasmedia.com/claudiarosett/haiti-u-s-sends-help-un-wants-mo ney/

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Edited by: skysoulmate Jan 17, 10, 14:10 #940

Indeed just as you did with New Orleans right, you should have said "America under Obama".

Your anti-American paranoia is mind-boggling - what gives?

There was nothing wrong with what the "American People" did, they gave millions and millions. As always you throw in your political populism to boost your hateful sentiment...

People are dying in Haiti by the hour and you can't resist giving out the "your country sux" policy zingers.

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Edited by: scrappleton Jan 18, 10, 20:40 #941

skysoulmate:

Babinich What happened to all that developmental aid?

-I agree with everything you've said. Don't have any answers and can't offer any solutions.

Well the solution you seem to suggest is give more and more money to them. Babinich makes some points.. What has happened to all that aid?? Probably what always happens.. Presidents and ministers of these banana republics get new palaces and swiss bank accounts.. and the American middle class (and European often) get the bill and shamed for not doing more and more and more. A Earthquake happens here probably people don't sit around in their own urine waiting for a handout is all I'm saying.

Maybe at some point they could have invested in better housing contruction codes? Maybe don't have 10 children when you can't afford 1? Maybe rid yourselves of corruption? MAYBE LEARN TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF? Is this really draconian to suggest this at some point?

Oh and limeys hate us.. don't waste breath arguing with them.

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Jan 18, 10, 21:36 #942
Any policy that determines the ability to provide health care solely based on a persons personal wealth is backward.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Jan 19, 10, 12:06 #943

I was checking out the latest on PLK and got directed to an American news web site: newstin.com on that site was a huge right hand banner saying "STOP OBAMA CARE". So you click that and it takes you to this site: Hey pawns follow me

Which is basically a totally biased Poll amied to scare monger Americans into providing negative feedbacks to be published in every big business media owned outlet possible. Im thinking that this news site is a derivative of FOX or one of the other big corps who have vested interests in keeping health care profitable.

Im telling you Yanks support Obama on this or you are doomed, if he gets this right for you guys theres still hope. It really is Big Business vs Obama, at the moment big business is winning!!!!!

I'll try a bit more research on this later to see if i can find other sites pulling the same trick, it wouldnt surprise me if there are hundreds. I thought this kind of thing was only heard of in conspiracy theory documentaries but ive seen it with my own eyes today and im shocked.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 12:37 #944
Did you see some of those questions? Hardly neutral! Reminds me of the John Stuart Mill quote: "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."

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Edited by: convex Jan 19, 10, 13:51 #945

Wroclaw Boy:

Im telling you Yanks support Obama on this or you are doomed, if he gets this right for you guys theres still hope. It really is Big Business vs Obama, at the moment big business is winning!!!!!

Seriously? We don't have the NHS. We have private healthcare. This is going to be the biggest handout to the medical industry in history. There are plenty of cheap insurance plans out there to pick up the bill when something horrible happens. When you start using insurance to pay for stuff like broken bones, the prices increase because no one cares about how much it costs. In the US, there are plenty of free clinics that provide basic services.

More people in the US want HBO than health insurance.

We hear a lot about people being denied treatment, but when doing a highly scientific and 100% accurate search, I get the impression that kind of thing happens more in government run health care.

Seriously though, the people that can't afford it are covered by medicaid. The people that would rather have premium cable...well, they get what they deserve. Walmart provides health care benefits, McDonalds, 7-eleven... I mean, seriously, it's less money than is snatched out of your paycheck in Europe.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Jan 19, 10, 14:19 #946
convex: In the US, there are plenty of free clinics that provide basic services. Do you know how to find one of those free clinics?

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 14:24 #947
sure. My neighbors used to go there when I lived in Austin. If you're in Dallas, there are a couple of options as well free clinics

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Jan 19, 10, 14:47 #948
Thanks!

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Jan 19, 10, 15:32 #949

convex:

There are plenty of cheap insurance plans out there to pick up the bill when something horrible happens.

It kind of reminds me of when they made Auto Insurance mandatory the people that dont have much money buy from the sub-par companies that offer the bare minimum coverage. If youve been into an accident with one of persons that has a midnight company, its practically impossible to get them to pay out fully.....

If mandatory Insurance becomes law and you dont have it, they said you would be fined yearly for not doing so.

How many Americans will there be that cant afford to buy it? The homeless and unemployed cant, and they certainly wont be able to pay the fines, with interest Im sure!

You cant force everyone to pay, its impossible or threaten them with jail?
It still wont work.

Wroclaw Boy:

Im telling you Yanks support Obama on this or you are doomed, if he gets this right for you guys theres still hope.

At least get something done expect fighting each other all the time!

It could be doomed already if the open senate seat in Mass goes Republican?

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Edited by: f stop Jan 19, 10, 16:05 #950

last time I looked into this, a family health insurance, if one were to buy it without the employers help, the best price was $300 a month. And that was couple of years ago, so I suspect it's more now.
The free clinics were ghetto holes giving out condoms.
I have to check again how things have changed, tho.
I already checked convex link, and the closest free clinic to me is 60 miles away, in a ghetto.

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Jan 19, 10, 16:41 #951

I think a big problem in the US is that we're trying to treat the symptom, not the problem. If you answer the question of "Why is health care so expensive in the USA?" you quickly come to the solution. Why in gods name do we need insurance in order to pay for for putting a cast on your arm? Why does hip replacement surgery cost $15000 in New Zealand and $90000 in the USA? Why does LASIK cost $1500 in the USA and the same in New Zealand? It might have something to do with subsidies...

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Jan 19, 10, 17:00 #952

convex:

Walmart provides health care benefits, McDonalds, 7-eleven... I mean, seriously, it's less money than is snatched out of your paycheck in Europe.

Thats sticking lipstick on a pig. As long as big business controls the large insurance companies and profit is the main goal how can it possibly be a fair system for the people on a whole?

convex:

Why does hip replacement surgery cost $15000 in New Zealand and $90000 in the USA? Why does LASIK cost $1500 in the USA and the same in New Zealand? It might have something to do with subsidies...

Exactly.

Most Americans that argue the usual points in favour of the current system are scared into that by media tactics.

If the health care systme in the UK or Poland for that matter was abolished and i needed insurance and had to pay every single month i would be furious. I cant imagine having to worry about my insurance policy depending on what injury or illness i sustained. Lets not even mention rehablitation.

Americans hate control and the slightest sniff of state or dare i mention the communist word but; cant you see, the current system is control of the highest degree - and for what? to make super rich people even richer with more power...

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Jan 19, 10, 17:35 #953

Wroclaw Boy:

Americans hate control and the slightest sniff of state or dare i mention the communist word but;

The British fixation with everything American is always amusing to me. Why are you so "concerned"? Why are you always criticizing? You have no vested interest, you're not an American, you never will be. You speak of our media lying to us constantly perhaps your media is lying as well if you think the sky is falling over here. All this "Go with Obama or you're doomed" Lol.. Healthcare is being revamped but I can assure that when it's done it will not resemble European models that much.

We're not you - You are not us. It's neither good or bad, it's just the way it is.

MEMBER ♂

Jan 19, 10, 17:48 #954

scrappleton:

Why are you so "concerned"? Why are you always criticizing?

I am really worried about America and what its capable of.

scrappleton:

We're not you - You are not us. It's neither good or bad, it's just the way it is.

Thats a fair point but it doesnt hurt to try. Obviously most humans are smart and know whats what, i just cant help thinking that over there media rules and that really worries me. Its bad enough in the UK with the most popular tabloid The Sun recently supporting Conservatives instead of Labour.

I view Amewrica as the leading power but they are also the most corrupt, Americas decisions have impact around the World so it kind of is everybodys business.

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Jan 19, 10, 18:08 #955

Wroclaw Boy:

I view Amewrica as the leading power but they are also the most corrupt,

The Chinese will soon be in power and you may miss American corruption. The Chinese barely allow freedom of assembly or freedom of the press.. a slew of other things.

Wroclaw Boy:

Americas decisions have impact around the World so it kind of is everybodys business.

Not for very much longer. And forgive me, no it's not your business how we run our country. If your countries invested in Wall Street that's not the US government's problem. The market was inflated for sometime.It's inflated now actually. . America is probably in permanent decline in my view. Wall Street's manufactured credit crisis has hastened it by 25 years. Yes the rich are given every advantage it's true. I've never understood the appeal of plutocracy but there you go. My hope is that once the babyboomer generation is finally in their rocking chairs things will get a little better or at least stabilize. Sad days are upon us. The sky is not falling but it will never be the same thanks to babyboomer decisions that my generation will have to pay for.

richpplsuk

Jan 19, 10, 22:17 #956

you know something?i'll bet you're a twizzler,aren;t you?;always excercising,watching your weight,live in a beautiful neighborhood,pristine lawn,with picket fences in a gated community...yes?of course you are;just living the american dream,right?well,let me ask you something.do you have any kids?if so,are they old enough to work?not everybody has the opportunity to excell in life like you.you're like all these other rich people,who couldn't care less about their fellow man.and you should be ashamed of yourself.i can't believe people,smart people,are so f*****g ignorant about healthcare issues like you are!just because you are blessed w/ a high metabolism and access to a personal trainer does not mean everybody else is that fortunate.why don't you have a heart?it's heartless people like you who are detrimental to the progress of humanity.why are you so selfish?!and what if you are no longer rich?what then?it's easy for you to say "why don't people get off there couches"...;you can afford the better food,and don't have to shop at walmart,or costco for your sustinence.you probably buy your food(yeah,like you actually buy your own food),online.it always made me curious to know why is it that people who have it all still manage to find something to complain about.and who do they complain about most?poor people! grow up!

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09 ♂	Edited by: scrappleton Jan 19, 10, 22:27 #957
richpplsuk: i'll bet you're a twizzler,aren;t you?; Uhhh.. who the hell are you talking to? Twizzler? A piece of licorice?

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Edited by: skysoulmate Jan 19, 10, 22:57 #958

Rich-ppl-suk - sorry you hate rich people so much and I guess I probably am rich in your "La-La Land" - world. I'm sorry my wealth bothers you that much. Move to Venezuela, Cuba, etc and you won't have to worry about it - pretty everyone there is "equal", or equally miserable.

I am against the current health care proposal - it's an incredible bribery induced (Nebraska? hello!) tax-waste feast and I hope it'll be defeated - at least in the current form. If it passes I hope it'll be repealed or revised when the socialists lose their power, and the time will come.

I felt the same about government run health care when I was making $25k a year. So it has nothing to do with wealth but rather brain power.

Your post is hard to understand, I think you're weight to hight challanged? Sorry to hear that, wish you good luck.

sledzThreads: 29 Posts: 3,202 Joined: Sep 19, 06 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 23:33 #959
Well in about 4 hours we will know if there is a new Republican Senator elected in Massachusetts and that will change everything. Omaba is probably chain smoking those cigarettes about right now

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Edited by: skysoulmate Jan 19, 10, 23:52 #960

I am not sure who'll win but think the socialists will win in Massachusetts after all; they're spending millions, acorn shuffles folks to voting places, etc, so I think they'll win. Even if they won't though they've already alluded to delaying the swearing in process long enough for the bill to pass. So I don't think this election will change much, the socialists still control the senate, the house and the white house.

Ironically, the strongest periods in the American economy have always been the lame duck periods where the opposing party blocks the governing party's legislation (Clinton & Gingrich détante good example) - basically shows you that when the government can't destroy thing even more - the country is doing pretty well.

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