Why dont americans want a universal health care system?

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Aug 8, 09, 23:22 #121

The poor people are going to get inferior service, no doubt about it. In a perfect world everyone would joyfully give their fellow man equal coverage even if their fellow man didn't pay for that coverage. The people who pay for insurance out of their own pockets are going to be the one throwing fits. They will pay out of their own pockets then pay increased taxes for those without insurance unless no one pays for insurance and the govt foots the bill for all. This doesn't look promising.

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Aug 9, 09, 03:33 #122

I'm an American so let's distinguish what an American is. Lets Define it. Canadians are Americans, Mexicans are Americans, So are all the little countries in between Brazil and the United States. So who are we talking about that are allowed to be insulted? If its a United States Citizen then you are right. While we are at it, let's define what a United States Citizen is. United States citizenship is a piece of paper that says you have the right to be here, you can work, here and receive all the benefits the law can offer. However, no one, and I mean NO ONE is naturally a United States Citizen. It has to be applied for on paper. You are not born with it, you are only born with right to be one of these legal paper citizens. Of all the people that have come to these shores, there has never been a natural born citizen of the United States of America. Of course not even Americans know that they think they are applying for a social security card when they claim their citizenship under the law. (Title 8 USCS)

Plus Socialized Medicine does exist here. If you don't have paid for insurance, most states have a welfare system or a low income system that covers medical. I think what most people in this country don't like about the idea of socialized medicine is that (in theory) it brings us closer to being a communist nation. However most people don't under stand that most of our laws come directly from the Communist manifesto (such as a graduated income tax, and the school systems) and Hitlers gun control laws. The united states is a fascist government, but not openly. There is a fantasy here. It's called the American Dream. But it is only a fantasy and if you see it your life can turn into a nightmare because everyone else is living the fantasy and the forces that be wants things to stay in this dream state. That is why Americans think their s*** don't stink. Someone told them it was called a rose.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 03:46 #123
Wroclaw Boy: At least tax money is spent in the best interests of the public and not a 200 million yaucht for some fat cat. Well you know what i mean. That is such a distortion of reality. And no I didn't vote for the Tabula Rasa.

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Aug 9, 09, 10:58 #124

fiberflinger:

However, no one, and I mean NO ONE is naturally a United States Citizen.

I'm a citizen. Actually Canadians and Mexicans don't call themselves American because they don't want to be confused with United States Americans.

fiberflinger:

I think what most people in this country don't like about the idea of socialized medicine is that (in theory) it brings us closer to being a communist nation.

What will happen is the govt will start handing over money to the insurance companies to keep premiums from sky rocketing. Either that or everyone will be offered a discounted insurance plan with lower costing premiums and co pays.

fiberflinger:

If you don't have paid for insurance, most states have a welfare system or a low income system that covers medical.

Not true. Some people make too much money to qualify and remain uninsured because their employer doesn't offer it and individual plans are too costly.

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Edited by: Babinich Aug 9, 09, 11:53 #125

PlasticPole:

Some people make too much money to qualify and remain uninsured because their employer doesn't offer it and individual plans are too costly.

Some people remain uninsured by choice.

One thing regulations can do is allow insurance at an individual level and not at the employer level. In this case, when a person leaves a job their insurance goes with them.

The health coverage most Americans have is insulation, not insurance. Rather than insuring them against risk, most families’ health plans insulate them from paying for most health care bills, large and small.

For health care providers, insulation is a buffet. Consumers are not spending their own money. Consumers accept doctors’ recommendations for services without questioning them and without concern for cost. Faced with an insured patient, a health care provider is like an open bar at a wedding: the customer will gladly take top shelf liquor and not worry about the price.

Consumers are happy as well. Insulation relieves the patient of the stress of making decisions about treatment. The patient also does not have to worry about shopping around for the best price.

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Aug 9, 09, 12:55 #126

fiberflinger:

benefits the law can offer. However, no one, and I mean NO ONE is naturally a United States Citizen.

Bull Crap. I was born in the States. I am a natural American citizen..

People who were not born here have to become naturalized citizens.

Babinich:

Some people remain uninsured by choice.

True.. I have seen many cases of this.. I know a lot of young couples that gamble that they wont get sick.. But as they get older, as a rule they get on it.. It's a crap shoot.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 14:29 #127
nunczka: People who were not born here have to become naturalized citizens. There are many cases of soon to be parents taking advantage of the "border baby" loophole. This loophole must be closed. No one advocates turning away the sick. But there is a difference between compassion and premeditated voter class creation.

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Aug 9, 09, 14:36 #128

nunczka
You certainly do not know what you are talking about. You only know what you have been led to believe. There are NO Natural born CITIZENS in this country. There is no such thing as an AMERICAN CITIZEN, Go look it up in the law books. (The book is Title 8 USCS if you want to prove me wrong) If you were born here, you are ENTITLED to citizenship, you are not automatically one without the paperwork. You are then a United States Citizen, not an American Citizen. Once upon a time Americans in this country were Citizens of the State they resided in and there was no U.S. citizenship. That was like being a Polish Citizen then in 1864 came the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which made United States Citizenship. This was basically established for Negroes after the Civil war because no State wanted Black citizens. Where did I hear this from? My teacher in the 5th grade in Georgia in the 1950's. Interesting how information in schools changes to suit the times and what they (whoever "they" are). What Americans "believe" and what the real truth is a fantasy. The American Dream is a memory of what the country was supposed to be prior to 1864, but that is as long as this Great County lived.

What you get now is "equality". But equal to what and whom. I am not picking information out of thin air, I am NOT telling you my "beliefs". I am telling what I discovered in 30 years of reading Black and White written American Law books . Not books about the law, the real law. Have you ever read one? You do read don't you? I personally do not know of many Americans that actually read the law. I have even read portions of the Polish Constitution.
I will read it all.

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Edited by: sledz Aug 9, 09, 16:21 #129

fiberflinger:

nunczka
You certainly do not know what you are talking about. You only know what you have been led to believe. There are NO Natural born CITIZENS in this country. There is no such thing as an AMERICAN CITIZEN, Go look it up in the law books. (The book is Title 8 USCS if you want to prove me wrong) If you were born here, you are ENTITLED to citizenship, you are not automatically one without the paperwork. You are then a United States Citizen, not an American Citizen. Once upon a time Americans in this country were Citizens of the State they resided in and there was no U.S. citizenship. That was like being a Polish Citizen then in 1864 came the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which made United States Citizenship. This was basically established for Negroes after the Civil war because no State wanted Black citizens. Where did I hear this from? My teacher in the 5th grade in Georgia in the 1950's. Interesting how information in schools changes to suit the times and what they (whoever "they" are). What Americans "believe" and what the real truth is a fantasy. The American Dream is a memory of what the country was supposed to be prior to 1864, but that is as long as this Great County lived

So what does any of this have to do with health care???

fiberflinger:

What you get now is "equality". But equal to what and whom. I am not picking information out of thin air, I am NOT telling you my "beliefs". I am telling what I discovered in 30 years of reading Black and White written American Law books . Not books about the law, the real law. Have you ever read one? You do read don't you? I personally do not know of many Americans that actually read the law. I have even read portions of the Polish Constitution.
I will read it all.

Yeah Yeah bla bla bla, Obamas plan sucks, its going to be his downfall once his plan come back and bites him.... He wont get a second term

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 16:36 #130
PlasticPole: Not true. Some people make too much money to qualify and remain uninsured because their employer doesn't offer it and individual plans are too costly. yes it is.. he said welfare or low income.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 16:52 #131
sledz: He wont get a second term Don't be so sure... “No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.” - H.L. Mencken Just as a clarification I must say that anchor baby is far more commonly used than border baby.

sledzThreads: 29 Posts: 3,202 Joined: Sep 19, 06 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 17:00 #132
Babinich: Don't be so sure... I really do hope it does work the less unfortunate surely need it, but when the government gets involved? They tend to spend money as fast as they can print it. Im happy paying for my own insurance.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Aug 9, 09, 17:05 #133
plk123: yes it is.. he said welfare or low income. As it is right now not all of them qualify. If you make too much money you don't qualify for medicaid and "too much money" isn't much.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 17:06 #134
sledz: sledz Good man... :') Remember what Milton Friedman said?

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Aug 9, 09, 17:43 #135

fiberflinger:

What Americans "believe" and what the real truth is a fantasy. The American Dream is a memory of what the country was supposed to be prior to 1864, but that is as long as this Great County lived.

I think that you spend too much time with your sheep. I have been around for a pretty long time.. America, the way it has been in my life time has been very good to me. Take you Black and White law books and shove them..

The American people are standing up to crooked politics, and the ALCU with their archaic laws. The present Administration is violating all of our laws anyhow. We now have to be careful in what we say for fear of being snitched on.. Another law shot to hell.

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Aug 9, 09, 20:53 #136

I guess my response to this did not go through.

I don't spend enough time with my sheep, it is too hot right now to be out with them. Glad the US has been good to you, I can't say the same for myself. My livelihood destroyed because I question a corrupt government and my family lost. I have never heard of an ALCU. It that like ACLU? They don't make laws.

I can see you know much more than I do. Probably due to your experience and knowledge of the subject matter. As long as you continue to do as you are told you will do really well.

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Aug 9, 09, 21:41 #137

I guess it is better understood if I ask,"why doesn't Poland want Russia to govern them?" We need a change in our healthcare system, that does not mean that any change is automatically good. When I was young I had a family doctor who could know the history of our family health. Later in life our doctor was determined by our health insurance company. These companies would tell us and our doctor what treatment we could or could not have. When coverage ran out....you die. (In the case of my co-worker, he also was fired because he was un insured.) If I recieved healthcare without insurance, the bill was a lot less than if I had insurance. That seems to be the real problem. Overcharging is huge in the healthcare/ insurance world.
Let's get the Government of the U.S. to show us how they can do better. This government already overspends and can not enforce the laws they have made, and somehow I am suppose to trust they will take care of my health? The leaders of our great country do not have the same healthcare we have and are not moving us in that direction. Why? They are not truly concerned about our healthcare but rather how to make their financial burden go away. Ideally, universal healthcare works only on paper, people and corrupt governments make sure of that.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07 ♂	Edited by: lesser Aug 9, 09, 22:00 #138
The key to understand the problem...

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 9, 09, 22:22 #139
fiberflinger: m Yhoopy brilliant! At last some American with brains ....anyway on PF. Welcome to PF!

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Edited by: plk123 Aug 9, 09, 22:35 #140

PlasticPole:

As it is right now not all of them qualify. If you make too much money you don't qualify for medicaid and "too much money" isn't much.

which is fine.. if you make, basically, any money, you ought not be looking for help..

nunczka:

The present Administration is violating all of our laws anyhow. We now have to be careful in what we say for fear of being snitched on.. Another law shot to hell.

boy are you ill informed and paranoid.

fiberflinger:

My livelihood destroyed because I question a corrupt government and my family lost.

that makes no sense.. or maybe that's just more paranoia... hmm

and the rest of you are scaredy cats..

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Edited by: scrappleton Aug 9, 09, 22:44 #141

fiberflinger:

The American Dream is a memory of what the country was supposed to be prior to 1864, but that is as long as this Great County lived.

Since you speak of it in the past tense, when will you be leaving the country? You know, since it's past its prime? Where are you from exactly? I'm always a little skeptical of "Americans" on PF who instantly start bashing the US. The US has problems no doubt but it seems you have a real agenda... like a lot of Europeans.

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Aug 9, 09, 23:39 #142

scrappleton:

Since you speak of it in the past tense, when will you be leaving the country? You know, since it's past its prime? Where are you from exactly? I'm always a little skeptical of "Americans" on PF who instantly start bashing the US. The US has problems no doubt but it seems you have a real agenda... like a lot of Europeans.

Oh pleaseeeeeeeeeeee!
At last something interesting not fanatical "patriots"

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Aug 10, 09, 00:36 #143

I don't believe I will be leaving this country. I am no longer 27, I am 65. I am very bitter toward the government but I love my country. Even fanatical patriots have validity. If you read what they present, some is true. However most are out to scam unsuspecting people, as everyone wanting to make money quickly. "Just because I am paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me", an old american saying. My feelings about someone who defends any country to the max is they are either, stupid, ignorant or a government agent. Something learned from the SS of Germany probably. Corruption is world wide and it is all connected to the next like a spider web. IMHO the President of the US is nothing more than a shill for someone higher pulling his puppet strings. Most Americans and I am sure most of you would think I am bashing, but what if what I said was absolute truth. I'm not being emotional about this, only stating by experience what I have encountered. That is not bashing, that is story telling. Most people give knowledge and tell stories they have heard or learned from other people.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Aug 10, 09, 02:22 #144
Some interesting information... http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/08/the-white-hou ses-deal-with-big-pharma-undermines-democracy.html

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Aug 10, 09, 04:55 #145
plk123: which is fine.. if you make, basically, any money, you ought not be looking for help.. If you don't make a lot of money or your employer doesn't provide health insurance paying for doctors and prescriptions can be expensive. Paying for insurance can be, too. Imagine paying $150 + a month premium plus $25 co pay every time you see the doctor and whatever co pay your Rxs are. It adds up.

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Aug 10, 09, 04:58 #146

From the above link:

"Last week,... the White House confirmed it has promised Big Pharma that any healthcare legislation will bar the government from using its huge purchasing power to negotiate lower drug prices. That's basically the same deal George W. Bush struck in getting the Medicare drug benefit, and it's proven a bonanza for the drug industry."

So much for "Hope and Change". Of course I had to sadly laugh when Obama picked Biden for VP. This boring mediocre man was in the senate for 35 years and was entrenched with the establishment politicians. I told an Obama supporter, "there's your 'hope and change'.

Still, some people are still mesmerized by Obama. Amazing.

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Aug 10, 09, 06:28 #147

ZIMMY:

"Last week,... the White House confirmed it has promised Big Pharma that any healthcare legislation will bar the government from using its huge purchasing power to negotiate lower drug prices. That's basically the same deal George W. Bush struck in getting the Medicare drug benefit, and it's proven a bonanza for the drug industry."

That's a given considering what would happen if drug prices did go down what with Pharmacopia being such a meaty chunk of the stock market.

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Aug 10, 09, 07:19 #148

PlasticPole:

If you don't make a lot of money or your employer doesn't provide health insurance paying for doctors and prescriptions can be expensive. Paying for insurance can be, too. Imagine paying $150 + a month premium plus $25 co pay every time you see the doctor and whatever co pay your Rxs are. It adds up.

personally i think there should be social medicine in the usa.. if you want more.. pay up more.. but i think the general populace should have healthcare.. lack of it is not going to help usa in the 21st century world.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Edited by: Babinich Aug 10, 09, 11:48 #149
plk123: but i think the general populace should have healthcare.. Medical care or health care? There is a difference. Health care is largely in the hands of the individual; medical care is in the hands of doctors. Things that depend on what doctors do; cancer survival rates for example; are already better here in the US than in countries with government-run medical systems.

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Aug 10, 09, 16:26 #150

I am amazed with the obsession of illness. Would you even know you were sick unless some quack told you. The same quack that is "pushing" legal drugs? You will find a drug for every ailment in the world including life. I don't know any healthy people. They all have to have medicines of some sort. Complaining about their drugs, their doctors, their insurance. Now granted That might be nice to have in an emergency, but the reason these drugs are so expensive is the desire to have them, by EVERYBODY. What would it be like if people knew more about their bodies than what these quacks are telling you about your bodies. That doesn't seem right to me. If its my body, I should know what to do about a problem. Maybe schooling should be changed instead of offering a medical system. Witch craft is what it is and I get real, real tired of the Monopoly.

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