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Why dont americans want a universal health care system?


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AntVThreads: 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Feb 25, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 6, 12, 21:53    #2,641
pip:
Private care is all for money and no patient care and everything is hugely inflated because insurance companies typically pay for it.


My mother-in-law (a private care physician in the Poznan-area who worked under the NFZ for decades) would take you to task on that, pip.

pip:
gov't involvement does not mean the quality of care changes- and there is no nasty bill waiting for you when you check out.


As the article I posted shows, the quality of care does suffer. And, to go back to my mother-in-law (who truly cares about the people she cares to a fault), when she was under the NFZ she saw about 50 patients on average a day--most had insignificant issues, i.e. a little throat irritation, a dry cough, a daughter-in-law who got on patient's nerves. Granted, this is anecdotal, but from my understanding this is common place, and it drains resources. So, care does suffer.
As far as no nasty bill is concerned under a government-managed system, the bill is paid everytime you earn money in the form of withholdings. In your home country of Canada nearly $6,000.00/yr per capita is spent on healthcare. Someone is paying for that--Canadians. In America, about $8,000.00/yr per capita is spent on healthcare. Around 40% of that comes from Medicare (the government managed health insurance). Every paycheck about 1.5% of American wage earners have that deducted from their earnings. It's not free. Not only is it free, but I believe there is significant proof that medicare is a major contributor to increased health care costs. One, it spends more money per person on administrative costs. Two, it spends overall about $20 billion less than private insurers, but for 5 times less people.

pip:
the u.s. system is a mess- it needs overhaul- but how it should be done is anybody's guess.


It does have serious problems, but it's not a total mess. It doesn't need overhaul, but it needs some serious fixing. Government won't fix it. It'll break it.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Jan 6, 12, 22:53    #2,642
joepilsudski:
raking in the bucks for insurance companies, doctors, social service organizations and nursing homes.

I take issue with this gross generalization. I'm a Family Physician (GP) and let me assure you the only thing I'm raking in are the leaves every fall ;)
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: ZIMMY  Mar 28, 12, 01:24    #2,643
The U.S. Supreme Court is finally considering Obamacare which as we know is an attempt to grow BigGovernment. It is Orwellian and those who prefer being told how to live from 'womb-to-tomb' are for it.;
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/03/27/the_supreme_obama care_question_113632.html

Justice Sonia Sotomayor should excuse herself from this proceeding because she was involved in crafting Obamacare. If she was a Republican then the main street media would have demanded it. Since she is a Democrat, they are ignoring her prejudicial position.

edit: Nevertheless, I predict the Court will find it unconstitutional by a 5-4 vote.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 02:36    #2,644
ZIMMY:
I predict the Court will find it unconstitutional by a 5-4 vote.

not all of Obamacare. just the part that mandates everyone has to purchase health insurance.
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 03:03    #2,645
rybnik:
not all of Obamacare. just the part that mandates everyone has to purchase health insurance.

You may very well be correct on that point, but without the mandate funding this BigGovernment monster (17% of the total economy) will be virtually impossible. Perhaps the Democrats will try to take money out of private paychecks to fund their Orwellian dreams?

Just to show you how ludicrous this all is, Democratic Senator Max Baucus, a co-sponsor of the bill, doesn't even know what's in it. He was asked if he had read the entire bill and he replied that he hadn't because it's written in legal jargon so lawyers would interpret it. If that isn't scary then what is?
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 03:06    #2,646
ZIMMY:
He was asked if he had read the entire bill and he replied that he hadn't because it's written in legal jargon so lawyers would interpret it. If that isn't scary then what is?

I'm afraid this is more of the rule rather than the exception :(
modafinilThreads: -
Posts: 831
Joined: Jun 28, 11  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 03:21    #2,647
ZIMMY:
Orwellian
ZIMMY:
Orwellian dreams


Just what about UHC is Orwellian, again. Doesn't make any sense to me at all to call it that.
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 05:33    #2,648
As you know George Orwell described a totalitarian society in which telescreens continually brainwashed people about helpful government programs. The three slogans of the government known as "The Party" were " War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength."

The camel's snout is under the tent in Obamacare because the government mandate demands that people purchase a product and related to that is the premise that Congress can regulate inactivity under the Commerce Clause. Think about that! What is to stop "The Party" from demanding that citizens must buy only health foods or Chevy Volts or virtually anything else.
rozumiemnicThreads: 4
Posts: 1,023
Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 07:45    #2,649
ZIMMY:
As you know George Orwell described a totalitarian society in which telescreens continually brainwashed people about helpful government programs.

step AWAY from the screen ZIMMY
p3undoneThreads: 10
Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 12, 12 ♂ [Moderator] 		 Mar 28, 12, 14:54    #2,650
It's not hat Americans don't want universal health care;we don't want it shoved down our throats.People will now be forced to buy insurance
or accept he universal care.The supreme court is now mulling over the constitutional legality of forcing someone to buy something.Private Insurance rates will go up.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 14:59    #2,651
p3undone:
It's not hat Americans don't want universal health care;we don't want it shoved down our throats

I'm afraid that's the only way it'll get done. Too many vested interests want to keep the system just the way it is...........
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 15:41    #2,652
Word has it the Supreme Court justices are tearing into Obamacare. I do hope they keep certain parts intact. Insurance CEOs are crying in their bowl of Grape Nuts this morning since government cannot force every citizen to buy their product. Too bad so sad.
If Obamacare did force everyone to buy private health insurance, these companies could very well become the richest on earth. Most people don't think they deserve it since they are so unethical. They just want to take a good chunk of everyone's paycheck each month while giving very little back.

Why can't doctors go back to the days they were paid in chickens and pies?
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 16:18    #2,653
PlasticPole:
CEOs are crying in their bowl of Grape Nuts this morning since government cannot force every citizen to buy their product.

You might want to look at another scenario as presented in the following link. The insurance CEO's may be crying if Obamacare passes.. http://brainshavings.com/2009/06/obamacare-will-destroy-your-private-h ealth-insurance.html
Let's not forget that the lefties love BigGovernment and seem to prefer it running (and ruining) their lives.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: PlasticPole  Mar 28, 12, 16:29    #2,654
There is no public option. Obamacare tweaked in the congress and senate to make insurance companies richer by requiring everyone to buy their product. Only the poorest qualify for medicaid. Everyone else, except those qualifying for medicare, would be required to buy health insurance from a private insurance company. Even grandma and grandpa have to buy insurance to go with their medicare. It's just pure insanity. Any bill that allows big insurance to grow bigger on the backs of hardworking America is unconstitutional.
polishmamaThreads: 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Dec 2, 10 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 16:59    #2,655
AntV:
Every paycheck about 1.5% of American wage earners have that deducted from their earnings


Anyone who earns income in the US is subject to paying into Medicare and SS. Where did you come up with this 1.5%? That's how much each individual American wage earner pays into it, it's not how many American wage earners pay into it.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 17:04    #2,656
If health insurers want more people to buy their product, they need to do what others do. They need to lower the price of their product while raising the level of quality, thus making it attractive to consumers instead of trying to use congress to thief away half our paychecks!
polishmamaThreads: 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Dec 2, 10 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 17:07    #2,657
PlasticPole:
instead of trying to use congress to thief away half our paychecks!


But! But! But that's how our politics work! You're talking anarchy!
Lyzko  Mar 28, 12, 17:18    #2,658
If Obamacare is considered "un-American", well then, I guess our very president and those who support the New Deal, as well as FDR himself, are/were also un-American, eh?
Sorry!! That argument simply doesn't hold water.

Now, whether or not our freedoms are in jeopardy if citizens must pay on a compulsory basis for their provider care, is another story entirely. There, the other side might have a consitutional leg to stand on, (but a prosthetic one at best), since our Constitution DOES provide for our government to secure "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" for EACH AND EVERY one of her citizens, not merely those whose life and liberity are considered more important than that of others!!

Sadly, out Supreme Court is stacked against the Liberal wing of Congress, as her Chief Justice is a Bush appointee. I hope and pray however, that Chief Justice Roberts will follow the wisdom and guidance of his predecessors, such as Holmes and Warren.
Lyzko  Mar 28, 12, 17:19    #2,659
If Obamacare is considered "un-American", well then, I guess our very president and those who support the New Deal, as well as FDR himself, are/were also un-American, eh?
Sorry!! That argument simply doesn't hold water.

Now, whether or not our freedoms are in jeopardy if citizens must pay on a compulsory basis for their provider care, is another story entirely. There, the other side might have a consitutional leg to stand on, (but a prosthetic one at best), since our Constitution DOES provide for our government to secure "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" for EACH AND EVERY one of her citizens, not merely those whose life and liberity are considered more important than that of others!!

Sadly, out Supreme Court is stacked against the Liberal wing of Congress, as her Chief Justice is a Bush appointee. I hope and pray however, that Chief Justice Roberts will follow the wisdom and guidance of his predecessors, such as Holmes and Warren.
patrickThreads: 9
Posts: 120
Joined: Aug 3, 11 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 17:21    #2,660
Why are people who ride motorcycles required to buy helmets? The law in some states says they must wear a helmet, which essentially means they are forced by the government to buy something.

Why does the government prohibit all ADULTS under 21 from drinking alcohol? They can vote, get married, be drafted and die for their country, but for some reason they aren't mature enough to drink a beer.

Because this is what the government does. It makes decisions about the well-being of its citizens and of course not everybody is happy with all those decisions. All this talk of America turning into 1984 is so out of line.
Lyzko  Mar 28, 12, 17:28    #2,661
Tak, zupełnie zgadzam się Patryczku!

America lacks the solidarity of many socialist European nations, notably France, and Germany, formerly Sweden, and so forth, because its people lack and have lacked solidarity since the onslaught (zapach) of Reaganism at the start of the 80's, coincidentally the time around which your country was entering its first phases of Solidarność!

Overweening government and normal concerned government are not distinguished by the bulk of Homer Simpsons out in la-la-land, This is why demogogues like Rush and Hannity have 'em by the balls, so to speak:-)
polishmamaThreads: 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Dec 2, 10 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 17:46    #2,662
The Solidarnosc movement came out, and it's pre existant founding figures and localized movements, well before Reagan did. But, it's a point to consider. What solidarity there was in the US, started to disappear around Reagan's time. Why is that?
p3undoneThreads: 10
Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 12, 12 ♂ [Moderator] 		 Mar 28, 12, 17:49    #2,663
At first the Insurance companies were against it,but then threw in behind it at the last minute.If you decide you would rather have private Insurance it's going to cost a lot more than it does now.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Mar 28, 12, 18:12    #2,664
The insurance companies are for it now since they will gain huge profits from it at the expense of hard working Americans. It will be far more expensive than requiring people to buy a helmet. If only it were that cheap! No one would complain!
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Mar 28, 12, 18:49    #2,665
PlasticPole:
Why can't doctors go back to the days they were paid in chickens and pies?

Because chickens and pies don't pay the rent!!!
Lyzko  Mar 29, 12, 14:08    #2,666
US physicians have developed an especially bad case of a "What's in it for me?", instead of the only correct, "What's in it for THE PATIENT?" attitude!! This seemingly infectious virus bordering on terminal selfishness, appears incurable. What do you do then with any cancerous tumor, if possible?! REMOVE IT FROM THE SYSTEM!!!! This way, it won't affect the other well-functioning organs of the host body.

:-)
Lyzko  Mar 29, 12, 14:20    #2,667
Polishmama, essentially what Reagan did was to pull out all the stops of American history's rampant individualism!! He basically encouraged bullying by bosses, corporate greed, by, in his own words, "getting gov't. off of the backs of the American people...." (to thunderous applause from the business community, by the way!) and the slow, imminent destruction of Roosevelt's New Deal, precisely what Republicans aim to do now as we speak! Reagan appealed, and brilliantly I must say, to a new breed of businessmen -and women, tired of fair play. Reagan was the new Potter of "It's a Wonderful Life" (1947) with Lames Stewart and Donna Reed, with ol' Lionel Barrymore himself as the greedy, scroog-like Potter who (in HIS own words from the movie, "didn't want a lazy rabble, but a thrifty working class".).

Those who will vote down the Obamacare Bill, want the same thing; the already rich get richer, no Roosevelt-style conscience for the rest of America, and the middle-class??? DROP DEAD!!
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Mar 29, 12, 14:45    #2,668
Lyzko:
This way, it won't affect the other well-functioning organs of the host body.

And what are those other well-functioning organs? The insurance companies? The pharmaceutical companies? The CT scan, MRI, PET scan manufacturers? The conglomerate hospital systems? They, of course, are all altruistic entities being stymied by the big, bad greedy physicians..........Blah, blah, blah.
polishmamaThreads: 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Dec 2, 10 ♀ 		 Mar 29, 12, 15:38    #2,669
Lyzko:
Polishmama, essentially what Reagan did was to pull out all the stops of American history's rampant individualism!! He basically encouraged bullying by bosses, corporate greed, by, in his own words, "getting gov't. off of the backs of the American people...." (to thunderous applause from the business community, by the way!) and the slow, imminent destruction of Roosevelt's New Deal, precisely what Republicans aim to do now as we speak! Reagan appealed, and brilliantly I must say, to a new breed of businessmen -and women, tired of fair play. Reagan was the new Potter of "It's a Wonderful Life" (1947) with Lames Stewart and Donna Reed, with ol' Lionel Barrymore himself as the greedy, scroog-like Potter who (in HIS own words from the movie, "didn't want a lazy rabble, but a thrifty working class".).Those who will vote down the Obamacare Bill, want the same thing; the already rich get richer, no Roosevelt-style conscience for the rest of America, and the middle-class??? DROP DEAD!!


You said it, not me ;) Btw, I assume you don't subscribe to the disproven theory of "trickle down economics"?
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Mar 29, 12, 15:41    #2,670
The Obamacare Bill supports the greedy corporations! It helps seniors and forbid patient dumping by private insurrance but it also forces everyone to buy health insurance! It expands medicaire eligibility but not by that much. The insurance companies would make a huge profit. Question is, what would they give in return? A lot of people are not happy with insurance company because it leaves them with huge medical bills. Medical people want the sick person's entire salary and life savings. That is just insane.

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