Where is loyalty of Polish diaspora in America? In USA or in Poland? What is priority?

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Mar 25, 11, 17:52 #1
Just curious to whom are loyal American Poles, on the first place.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 17:58 #2
Every Pole living in America is either plastic, and not a real Pole, or a traitor. I learned that on this forum.

szarlotkaThreads: 14 Posts: 3,349 Joined: Feb 20, 07 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 17:59 #3
ShawnH: I learned that on this forum. Lol - so it must be true then ShawnH;) PS - Hope you are well and that Canada is thawing out a bit;)

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Mar 25, 11, 18:10 #4

szarlotka:

Lol - so it must be true then ShawnH;)

If you say it enough, it must be true.

szarlotka:

PS - Hope you are well and that Canada is thawing out a bit;)

My wife is part of the diaspora, we are working hard to put food on the table. She is concerned about life's basic issues, the health of our family unit, the safety in our immediate community, and the price of milk. Heating costs haven't gone down and the temperature outside hasn't gone up. We aren't as concerned about the big issues in Poland as compared to here. I am sure things are similar in Poland, with people just wanting to get on in their lives as best as they can.

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Mar 25, 11, 18:13 #5

ShawnH:

My wife is part of the diaspora, we are working hard to put food on the table. She is concerned about life's basic issues, the health of our family unit, the safety in our immediate community, and the price of milk. Heating costs haven't gone down and the temperature outside hasn't gone up. We aren't as concerned about the big issues in Poland as compared to here. I am sure things are similar in Poland, with people just wanting to get on in their lives as best as they can.

Very well put. I guess my wife feels the same way. The family is first and the country (homeland or adopted) is a distant second.

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Edited by: Softsong Mar 25, 11, 18:13 #6

Crow....I am sure feelings are different depending upon the individual and whether one is a recent immigrant to America, a recent citizen of the USA, or removed several generations.

Those who come to this forum, come to learn about their history, today's culture in Poland, and take pride in their roots. My grandparents were born in Poland, but some of my ancestors were Polish by ethnicity, and the others were Polish by nationality, until Russia took over where they lived.

My grandparents lived in a Polish community (Greenpoint, Brooklyn, NY and Jersey City, NJ), when they first came to this country. After a time, they moved to other parts of the New York City area. My mother spoke Polish and my father spoke German, but were Americans. Growing up, I appreciated my ethnic background, but always considered myself American.

As I got older, I had more of a hunger to know more and began to do genealogy and to learn more about the history of Poland and the history of Prussia.

I have come to have a deep love for Poland, but I am an American. (Not plastic anything) ;-)

And on my visits to Poland, I often wonder about what it would be like to move back to Poland. How surprised my grandparents would be if they were alive.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: delphiandomine Mar 25, 11, 18:16 #7
Crow: Just curious to whom are loyal American Poles, on the first place. They swore to do as America requires, including attacking Poland and Serbia if needs be. We're in no doubt as to where their real loyalty lies.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 18:17 #8
delphiandomine: They swore to do as America requires, including attacking Poland if needs be. ShawnH: Every Pole living in America is either plastic, and not a real Pole, or a traitor. Punkt.

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Mar 25, 11, 18:19 #9

I am a Polish-American and I feel loyalty to my family and my friends. I am loyal to the idea of America as a republic with liberty and justice for all, but most of the policies, both foreign and domestic, that the government of America has had, since I've been aware of such things, do not merit my loyalty. As for Poland its history interests me greatly and I am loyal to the idea of Poland as an anarchistic place where people do as they please. I am loyal to the idea of the Liberum Veto. If Poland were to go to war and it asked for Polonia's help I would judge the merits of its request and act accordingly. I do not believe in serving "my country right or wrong" regardless of whether it is my current or my ancestral homeland.

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,999 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 18:19 #10
Softsong wrote: My grandparents lived in a Polish community............Jersey City, NJ mine too. small world. have you been to Jersey City recently, btw? it's really changed in the past 5 years or so.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Mar 25, 11, 18:23 #11
I'm having hard time imagining any decisions I make in real life where I would have to choose between loyalty to Poland vs US. Can you give an example? I do buy Krakus ham when I see it... is that it?

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Mar 25, 11, 18:25 #12

delphiandomine:

They swore to do as America requires, including attacking Poland and Serbia if needs be

Well, being born an American, I never had to swear to anything. :-P

And my ethnically Polish grandparents would loved to have been nationals of Poland, but they were Prussian citizens and it was out of their control.

My German grandparents were also in a situation beyond their control. They volunteered to come to Poland to help drain the swamps and in return they received land. They got along well with the Polish nobles, but then they were victims of the partitions and became Russian citizens against their will.

Not everything is about swearing allegiance. Nations often decide who you are whether you like it or not. My grandparents all came to America seeking freedom from the forced upon them nationalities.

When Poland became a country again, my great grand parents were still there and alive. So, technically, I could probably apply for a Polish passport as the rule says that citizenship can be passed down to someone like me, if they have but two great grandparents.

So, then.....would I be a traitor to the USA to do this? Or a traitor to Poland to ignore this option. See? Not all things are so cut and dry as you make it out to be.

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Edited by: Crow Mar 25, 11, 18:26 #13

delphiandomine:

They swore to do as America requires, including attacking Poland and Serbia if needs be.

We're in no doubt as to where their real loyalty lies.

Is it possible that Serbian diaspora thinks the same way? i mean, our diaspora is willing to financially help and support all kind of projects in homeland. Also, our diaspora was very solidar during NATO attack/bombing campaign in 1999 and often organized protests against USA decision to attack Serbia.

But, how could one (of Polish diaspora) react in case of, for example, mobilization declared by USA, in order to send him in land attack on, let`s say, Poland? That`s drastic example where loyalty could be exposed to the real test.

chichimeraThreads: 3 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 4, 11 ♀	Mar 25, 11, 18:30 #14
Des Essientes: If Poland were to go to war and it asked for Polonia's help I would judge the merits of its request and act accordingly. I do not believe in serving "my country right or wrong" regardless of whether it is my current or my ancestral homeland. I agree

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Mar 25, 11, 18:34 #15

If you listen to Delph, your Serbian diaspora would also be traitors no matter how much they are involved in Serbian affairs. Just becoming a citizen here in the USA would mean they were traitors. But this is only in his extreme mind and in his extreme way of thinking.

Most people move to a place where they have new opportunities and make a new life. There is no thought to fighting against their former homeland. The possibility exists that this could happen. But it is not a very likely scenario. It is splitting hairs unnecessarily.

Said to make people feel bad more than to point out a valid likely reality.

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Mar 25, 11, 18:38 #16

I wont be too surprised if they are more patriotic towards USA ... I mean rightly so. They can feel a belonging to Poland, but than it is an emotional aspect. Poland is basically a country where once their forefathers belonged to, now their reality is USA and this is as true as it gets.

USA is made up of many races and nations ... and had they not been more loyal to USA, there would not be US interests to aggressively pursued by these people around the globe.

As for Crow ... yep, I bet Serbs in USA are just as American as Mr. Barack Obama ...

SoftsongThreads: 6 Posts: 588 Joined: Sep 2, 07 ♀	Edited by: Softsong Mar 25, 11, 18:38 #17
FUZZYWICKETS: have you been to Jersey City recently, btw? it's really changed in the past 5 years or so. Yes, it sure has! It's been about ten years. But even then, I was amazed. My mother was baptized in the church, Our Lady of Częstochowa and my family is buried at Holy Name Cemetery.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Edited by: pgtx Mar 25, 11, 18:53 #18
Lodz_The_Boat: I wont be too surprised if they are more patriotic towards USA ... I mean rightly so. They can feel a belonging to Poland, but than it is an emotional aspect. Poland is basically a country where once their forefathers belonged to, now their reality is USA and this is as true as it gets. Poles living in Poland don't seem to be very patriotic in a first place.

Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 58 Posts: 2,314 Joined: Sep 7, 08 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 19:01 #19
pgtx: Poles living in Poland don't seem to be very patriotic in a first place. What is your definition of patriotism? I think I am patriotic enough.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Mar 25, 11, 19:04 #20
Lodz_The_Boat: What is your definition of patriotism? do we all have to live according to some definitions made up by bored people?

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Mar 25, 11, 19:11 #21

pgtx:

do we all have to live according to some definitions made up by bored people?

No, but then you cannot generalize that "Poles living in Poland don't seem to be very patriotic in a first place.". Because your way of claiming someone or a nation patriotic might not be applicable to other individuals of that same nation.

I believe in loving my country with respect to others, and accepting those who love and prefer to adopt my country as their own as my equal fellow citizens. I believe that my country should not only be a part of Europe, but behave and act as a part of the wider world. We need to pursue sustainable economic development, having strong ties with USA, China, India, South Africa, Australia and Japan - however being a subject/vassal to none. Better being neutral and aloof than being a vassal to anyone.

I believe patriotism in being careful for my lands animals and birds aswell. To pick up a trash and throw it in the bin ... to gather the children in park, tell them stories and encourage them to be useful and bright citizens. To make my country the brightest example in the world ... whether it happens or not, to try for it.

To help people help themselves ... to go and build bridges between civilizations.

This is patriotism for me ... neither less and nor beyond.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Edited by: pgtx Mar 25, 11, 19:13 #22
Lodz_The_Boat: "Some Poles living in Poland don't seem to be very patriotic in a first place.". happy now?

Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 58 Posts: 2,314 Joined: Sep 7, 08 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 19:29 #23
pgtx: happy now? Why should I be happy? I didn't like this comment in the first place. I don't understand what you are trying to say now! ... :S

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Mar 25, 11, 19:33 #24
should patriotism be unconditional?

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Mar 25, 11, 19:35 #25

pgtx:

should patriotism be unconditional?

First of all there needs to be a clear understanding of what is patriotism, and then only conditions can be discussed. Me as a Pole always paid more interest in learning English, and now wish to work on learning Chinese ... I would like these two language get more emphasis then it is getting inside my country.

I love to see an American tourist ... I love to make friends with Indians and Bangladesh and Kashmir and Persian friends. I decided to live a life with an Asian ... I love books written by Tolstoy ... I do consider myself a believer in the beauty of my country as a land of hope and achievement. I don't know how others weigh hope and achievement, but I weigh hope in the laughter of a little child, and achievement in the fulfilled smile of its parents! Very simple, isnt it? And I look at the Pole in her love towards Poland, not in her religion or her color. Being from a nation where almost everyone is white, unique in Europe on many degrees. But I feel good with the little diversity we have considering our Tatars ... and the few friends of other backgrounds here in Poland with Polish halves and Polish children.

Now you might have different ways of looking at your love for the country. But then this is why I say, we cannot really measure or categorize the feeling of patriotism such that we can make such generalized comments.

Facism, nationalism are two things which should not be aligned with something to sweet as patriotism.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Mar 25, 11, 20:32 #26
I think some people here wish the real world was more like their video games - with clear distinctions between the good guys and the bad guys.

Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 58 Posts: 2,314 Joined: Sep 7, 08 ♂	Mar 25, 11, 20:56 #27
f stop: with clear distinctions between the good guys and the bad guys. There are distinctions ... but often we don't look in the right dimensions ... we love to cover our eyes.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Mar 25, 11, 21:13 #28
I don't consider partiotism to be a virtue. Very often it's a form of exclusion. I see all around me real 'mericans so proud of their country because they don't have much to be proud about their own accomplishments. There are many other reasons why I think partiotism causes more harm than good, but I don't have much time right now.

itchyballs	Mar 26, 11, 05:18 #29
f stop: I don't consider partiotism to be a virtue. Very often it's a form of exclusion. I see all around me real 'mericans so proud of their country because they don't have much to be proud about their own accomplishments. There are many other reasons why I think partiotism causes more harm than good, but I don't have much time right now. Good citizenship matters.

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Mar 26, 11, 06:10 #30

Des Essientes:

I am a Polish-American and I feel loyalty to my family and my friends. I am loyal to the idea of America as a republic with liberty and justice for all, but most of the policies, both foreign and domestic, that the government of America has had, since I've been aware of such things, do not merit my loyalty. As for Poland its history interests me greatly and I am loyal to the idea of Poland as an anarchistic place where people do as they please. I am loyal to the idea of the Liberum Veto. If Poland were to go to war and it asked for Polonia's help I would judge the merits of its request and act accordingly. I do not believe in serving "my country right or wrong" regardless of whether it is my current or my ancestral homeland.

This, Exactly. If your cause is just in my eyes, I am in completely. I don't care who you are. Don't mistake the government I live under for me.

Cicero. Learn about him.

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