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"Occupy Wall Street" movement

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Oct 13, 11, 00:35 #61

PlasticPole:

They have been doing their best,

(yay,names back in quotes:):) )
erm, yes, the reactionary Americans will love/hate what Im going to say next but;
Phew, with this movement so many people around the world have breathed a sigh of relief at the fact the " Good" America we all knew was still there ,someone is finaly speaking up. :)
This is the America that drew the millions, the country that stood up for the little man if he was prepared to make a little effort without resorting to totalitarian measures.
A country where "We the People" actually meant something and where socialism may be a dirty word but it is infact practiced every day in small town America and even in the huge cities without fanfare.

Of course that always was a myth, the big money men of old were the plantation owners and the land speculators,oh yes,and the bankers, they always held the strings .....but from the late 19 hundreds till the early 1980s they always had to at least appear to be doing something for the little man in return for earning their vast wealth from the sweat on his brow. But lately they have reverted to a pre victorian,almost Borbonne like attitude of let the peasants eat twinkies.
They are few,we are many, ideas cannot die neither can the powerfulls worst nightmare that we will eventually tire of the cheep distractions of modern life.
If "they" really wanted to the internet for instance could be free of porn in weeks, extreme example but just modern day bread and circus.

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Edited by: PlasticPole Oct 13, 11, 00:42 #62

isthatu2:

This is the America that drew the millions, the country that stood up for the little man if he was prepared to make a little effort without resorting to totalitarian measures.

Americans who stood for small business and cottage industry because that is what this country was founded on. THAT is the capitalism on which we were founded, not the mega corporation. People need to realize what was originally meant by "capitalism" it was people going about their daily lives, trying to make a dollar to put food on the table, not corporations hoarding everything, trying to monopolize by infiltrating the government so nothing exists but them and when they are finally all that exists things get worse. They go running to countries like Communist China and employ that country's labor force.
It's too expensive.

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 00:46 #63
yes, thats what I ment by the "little man making an effort" the honest worker,no matter what colour collar and the little " Mom n Pop" operations ( if thats the right use of that phrase....sorry for sounding Ziva David like ;) )

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Oct 13, 11, 00:54 #64

isthatu2:

yes, thats what I ment by the "little man making an effort" the honest worker,no matter what colour collar and the little " Mom n Pop" operations ( if thats the right use of that phrase....sorry for sounding Ziva David like ;) )

That's all anybody in America wants. That opportunity. Nowadays, you practically have to be a millionaire just to get a good job. You have to go to college not just four years but eight and you either go in debt or you come from rich parents who can foot the bill. What I think is the four years kids are in high school, it should count as four years in University so when they get out, they can apply right then for graduate school if their grades are good enough. All others can enter the workforce after obtaining skills while in high school instead of spending all this friggin money and time as an undergraduate. It's so repetitive. Why not use high school as a source for college credits instead of making people pay for credits while in school. The way it is now is so wasteful, it's pathetic and it's costing taxpayers even more because they pay for school through their taxes and college tuition, both.

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Edited by: isthatu2 Oct 13, 11, 02:04 #65

sorry, my understanding of your education system is mostly gleaned from, Grease,Saved By the Bell,Porkies and Good Will Hunting ;)
But our own much touted Education system is slowly going the way of your own, a small handfull may be able to demean themselves and get some tax break inspired scholarship but the rest are seeing fees go up and graduate oppertunities go down. When they came out on the streets of london the Police treated them like wild animals and then acted surprised when some 16 year old kids bit and fought back, guess what we saw on the BBC? Yups, wild,long haired wasters throwing stuff from roofs or swinging on war memorials,maybe one token clip of a 6 foot 9 fully armoured riot copper beating the sh!t out of a school child.......it was weeks before footage of 6 brave coppers tipping a disabled lad out of his wheel chair appeared.
Like Dessi says, its tragic to see working class coppers once again clobbering the wrong people.
A lot of them are great people doing a dangerous stress full job, but as a whole its telling that in the history of recent and 20th century invasions and occupations the local Police are invariably the first to colabarate with some blind faith in "law and order", no matter how ilogical the laws may be.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 05:07 #66
Seanus: The Scandinavian countries are model, socialist democracies, Wedle. No Western country can legitimately knock them. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/10/private-health-insurance-increases -400.html

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Oct 13, 11, 08:43 #67

PlasticPole:

demanding that government be "for the people" by "we the people."

1970's all over again. Bring back citizen smith.

Seanus:

Um, many Norwegians would disagree with you. Do you want me to put you into contact with some? They tend to be delighted with their country's socialist success.

Norway can sit back a little, they have natural resources, we can focus more on the models of Denmark, France, The Netherlands and Sweden where there is more discontent. There needs to be a balance of Socialism and capitalism, no one country seems to have created the one model fits all solution. The Dutch gave it a good go, unfortunately they became too liberal. Maybe Poland could find the solution, it is still in its infancy stage as a capitalist society and PO is most certainly socialist in its policies. So all praise to the men at PO, this is your time.

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Edited by: southern Oct 13, 11, 09:12 #68

The main problem is the dropping of standards by the middle class to accomodate their incompetent offsprings into positions.Lots of mediocrities drops the average and this is reflected in productivity which causes debt because the mathematical model on which inflows are estimated does not take into account dropping of standards effect of affirmative action etc.It is a constant decline movement masked by democracy.In reality they are strangled by that.When the incompetency hits a critical level the decline is gross.Also there is no counterbalance factor.So what do they do?They simply give guarantees to cover each one's incompetent asses.In case the manager fails he gets a huge bonus because mediocrity has to be compensated.Who pays for the bonus?The chinese worker?More importantly who is willing to pay for the bonus in the interior?They really need to induce some violence and take away some personal liberties because the system as it is does not work.
In Greece I see this in giant dimensions since it is in the eye of the storm.

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Oct 13, 11, 10:31 #69

Babinich:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/10/private-health-insurance-inc reases -400.html

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Oct 13, 11, 11:04 #70

I'm a swede, I have no problem with the Scandinavian model. But what was said earlier is also true, there needs to be a balance. The current goverment (been sitting since 2006) have lowered taxes for the common man. I as a student, and therefore only earns extra (ie low income), only pays 10% income tax.

No society or model is perfect, and us in the north have our fair share of flaws. About the health insurances, I don't know. Kind of a non issue. Healthcare is free and availible for all, but if you wish to go to a private clinic and pay for it you can do that. If any, it just lowers the pressure on the public healthcare. Which is needed, because it is very true that it can take a long time of waiting before recieving treatment.

What is a good model for me? Free education, free healthcare and a socialwelfare net that guarentees that nobody has to sleep on the street and go hungry. The rest can be up for debate.

What I like the most about Sweden is that even the #1 ranked Business school (which is a private school) is also free of charge. And admissions are based on your "High School" grades (or a form of SAT's as a second chance if you failed High School), which means that rich people can't buy an education for their children ahead of somebody poor who have worked hard in school. They compete on the same terms.

All in all... when the **** hits the fan I'd rather live in Scandinavia then anywhere else. Despite its flaws and errors.

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Oct 13, 11, 11:10 #71

Scandinavian model can only work in Scandinavia due to homogenous population and extensive resources.(too much land for very few people).The resources(oil in Norway,iron in Sweden,wood in Finland guarantee flow of income indepedant of habits of inhabitants.They also add high tech(Nokia in Finland etc) due to exceptionally high IQ of the local inhabitants.Also relative security from outside threats.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Edited by: Babinich Oct 13, 11, 11:41 #72
Palivec: Oh wow. There are developed country however were millions of people aren't insured at all. Medical care is not a right. Nojas: What is a good model for me? Free education, free healthcare and a socialwelfare net that guarentees that nobody has to sleep on the street and go hungry. The rest can be up for debate. No good or service is "free".

NojasThreads: 4 Posts: 92 Joined: Mar 7, 10 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 12:07 #73
No, you pay taxes to have a healthcare free of charge. Anything else you care to quote from the "Book of the obvious"?

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Edited by: Babinich Oct 13, 11, 15:34 #74
Nojas: No, you pay taxes to have a healthcare free of charge. Thank you; I give you exhibit A.

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Oct 13, 11, 15:48 #75

Solidarity hero Lech Walesa is flying to New York to show his support for the Occupy Wall Street protesters.

"How could I not respond," Walesa told a Polish newspaper Wednesday. "The thousands of people gathered near Wall Street are worried about the fate of their future, the fate of their country. This is something I understand."

A former shipyard worker who led Poland's successful revolt against Soviet communism, Walesa said "capitalism is in crisis" and not just in America.

"This is a worldwide problem," he told the Lublin-based Dziennik Wschodni newspaper. "The Wall Street protesters have focused a magnifying glass on the problem."

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Edited by: Wedle Oct 13, 11, 16:07 #76

antheads:

"How could I not respond," Walesa told a Polish newspaper Wednesday. "The thousands of people gathered near Wall Street are worried about the fate of their future, the fate of their country. This is something I understand."

delphiandomine:

Hahahaha...HAHAHAHAHA.

That's the funniest thing I've read on this forum all week :D

Chew very slowly delphiandomine lol

Here comes Walesa and his 303 squadron...

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 16:11 #77
antheads: "How could I not respond," Walesa told a Polish newspaper Wednesday. "The thousands of people gathered near Wall Street are worried about the fate of their future, the fate of their country. This is something I understand." Has he asked to be received at the White House?

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 16:20 #78
antheads: This is a worldwide problem," he told the Lublin-based Dziennik Wschodni newspaper. "The Wall Street protesters have focused a magnifying glass on the problem. What the hell that clown doing down there ? Somebody paid him or he is there to destroy protesters organization from inside? Anyway those protests will achieve nothing

WedleThreads: 24 Posts: 786 Joined: Sep 27, 11 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 16:31 #79
Ironside: Anyway those protests will achieve nothing The protesters have already achieved something, now we are interested to see what they will do next and what they stand for.

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 16:57 #80
Babinich: No good or service is "free". Free at the point of access, i.e. No one is going through accident victims pockets to see they have the right insurence cards before they recieve treatment. Its quite simple really, one is a modern humane system,the other is barbaric.

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Oct 13, 11, 17:16 #81

PlasticPole:

This movement could very well change the world and I hope it does.

You're young aren't you?
During the '68 Democratic Convention in Chicago, the most popular refrain by the demonstrators was, "the whole world is watching". What the demonstrators ended up doing was electing Richard Nixon because middle and independent Americans did not like what they saw. History always seems to be lost to those who 'feel' they are doing something new.

PlasticPole:

Did you know people come from all over to America just so they can start their own businesses and hopefully, one day, become affluent.

You mean like my father who came to the U.S. and started a music business? Somehow, he did it without all those unnecessary bureaucratic regulations which are so abundant (and growing) today. If he had tried that in our current environment, he would not have been able to do it. That's what naive progressives don't understand.

vato loco:

Although the recession is officially over,

Is it?

vato loco:

Part of the problem is that President Obama has never clearly articulated a culprit for the Great Recession.

Perhaps the president doesn't want to cast judgement on the Democratic leaders of Housing in both the Senate and the House? You might want to reread how they pushed banks into making bad mortgages by using the power of the federal government.

vato loco:

Although most Americans support the general theme of the protesters,

You assume so much that is false.

PlasticPole:

What's really annoying is the movement is being compared to the hippies of the sixties. Why must there be comparisons?

Oh, maybe it's the urine and feces that liter the landscape. Good luck to Bloomberg who will try to vacate the premises and attempt to clean it up tomorrow.

isthatu2:

Guess who all the Fox news cameras focus on?
Yups, the easily dismissable kooks and stoners, totaly ignoring all the "normal" every day folks also angry and protesting.

There are many kooks at these protests so it's impossible to walk more than 10 feet without running into one. If you want to see "normal" folks then you should go to a Tea Party rally where the average person there actually knows something about the Constitution.

PlasticPole:

Americans who stood for small business and cottage industry because that is what this country was founded on. THAT is the capitalism on which we were founded, not the mega corporation.

Since you don't like mega corporations, you should give up your cell phone, your computer, your automobile, etc. Be true to your beliefs.

PlasticPole:

That's all anybody in America wants. That opportunity.

Really? The liberals and socialists I talk with want government handouts; some even admit that they don't want to truly invest in America.

PlasticPole:

Nowadays, you practically have to be a millionaire just to get a good job.

Are you aware that most millionaires are self-made? I'm guessing that you don't know that.

Ironside:

those protests will achieve nothing

Well, they are showcasing their faulty beliefs (such as they are) to the American public. They may very well insure the election of a Republican president as well as Republican control of the U.S. Senate, not to mention additional Republican strength at the state levels.

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Oct 13, 11, 17:24 #82

antheads:

That's fabulous news, Antheads! It's great to see him getting involved. This is far from over.

antheadsThreads: 13 Posts: 306 Joined: Jan 21, 11 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 17:56 #83
Yes espescially for someone who is pro free market, walęsa relizes there is a real problem here. Unlike stuck head in sand antiques like zimmy.

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Oct 13, 11, 18:25 #84

isthatu2:

Its quite simple really, one is a modern humane system,the other is barbaric.

Barbaric? Rubbish...

Your group says that medical care is a right. Medical care is a "positive right" requiring that others be compelled to provide a person's medical care.

In the modern welfare state, even in the face of the EU meltdown, the asserted positive right seems always to win.

Take for example the soup of the day: tax the rich. For some reason, the American left is willing to redistribute other people's money in order to fund "health care for all", welfare, debt forgiveness and pension programs.

The problem with all positive rights is that one never knows where their right ends. Why is there a limit on debt forgiveness, welfare, pensions or medical care if these are truly rights?

With trillion-plus-dollar budget deficits as far as the eye can see, my feeling is that the charitable (with other people's money) and constitutionally illiterate American citizenry will reverse their position on these "rights".

We've hit that budgetary wall in America and the government is now looking for ways to curtail cost. With medical care, that will most certainly come down to rationing. Because the costs are highest for "end of life medical care" it's clear costs would be contained at this point.

Though not publicly (the outcry would be overwhelming), the left has even acknowledged that fact: http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/10/13/obamacare- robert-reich-tells-the-truth-about-the-downsides-of-health-care-reform /

Yep, the only way such planning will save money is if the plan calls for grandpa & grandma to die a little sooner.

But that runs counter to the left's assertion that medical care is a right. if medical care is a right, shouldn't Grandpa & Grandma Doe be entitled to as many resources as necessary to keep them alive for as long as they want?

This leaves the left in the uncomfortable (and not because they care about the patient) position of having to state that medical care is only a right up to a point: an age, a level of sickness, or when cost reaches a certain level.

That's the lie: If a "right" ends at an arbitrary point set by apparatchiks and legislators, a point based on ever changing financial or political considerations, then by definition it can't be a right.

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Oct 13, 11, 18:58 #85

Well, well, well, I see that Plastic Pole who opposes "mega corporations" is still using a computer which is an evil product of these large entities. Can this dissonance be explained by Plastic Pole? I presume that other "mega corporation' products are also frequently used by PP as well as by others who constantly attack big business.

As to the stranglehold this administration has put on many companies, here is just one ludicrous example (of many):

"Henry Juszkiewicz, the chief executive officer of Gibson Guitar Corp., tells National Review Online that President Obama, a “big liberal,” has done “untold damage to business” ......... ”He’s a government fan,” he says. “He has a problem with successful businesses. He thinks they’re the problem, that they shouldn’t be quite as successful.”

To think that some here support this sort of government intervention.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Oct 13, 11, 19:26 #86
I am not against technology.

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Oct 13, 11, 21:31 #87

Occupy London Stock Exchange: Blighty’s answer to Occupy Wall Street

Occupy Wall Street has crossed the pond. Occupy The London Stock Exchange are saying they’ll assemble to protest in the City of London this weekend. Will the protests catch a fire or peter out fast?

If you want to protest against the banks and the state of late capitalism, your chance is fast-approaching. The freshly-formed Occupy London Stock Exchange (OccupyLSX) collective has signalled their intention to protest in the City of London this weekend. The group’s Facebook page, which had raced to over 12,000 followers by midday on Thursday, promises that the protest will start on Saturday the 15th of October at 12:00 outside St. Paul’s Cathedral and will include “assemblies, workshops and discussions”. The group held its first general assembly on the 9th of October, closing Westminster Bridge; there, speakers called for action and spread the word about occupations in other countries.

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Oct 13, 11, 21:41 #88

Babinich:

Barbaric? Rubbish...

Bless. You dont even know when you are being fcuked in the proverbial do you?
The measure of civiliasation is how a sociaty treats the most vulnerable members,so by any sane standards the good old USA falls down on its arse,over 45 milion without propar health care.
MSF having to set up treatment centres more usually used in 3rd world disaster zones, the list just goes on and on.
So, in short you dont think it is Barbaric to let people die?

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Oct 13, 11, 21:43 #89

The 'Occupy Wall Street' protests in the U.S. have gained momentum and gotten their share of media coverage in recent days. But economic unrest continues in other parts of the world, as citizens take to the streets to protest what they see as unfair government policies, stemming mostly from the 2008 recession.

Here's a look at the most current events at a time of continuing economic uncertainty around the globe.

United States:

Starting on Sept. 17 at Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan's Financial District with about 1,500 people, the 'Occupy Wall Street' protests have spread across the U.S.

Cities like Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin, Chicago, Washington D.C., and Boston have seen some sort of protests, and sometimes clashes with police.

Now, Lower Manhattan has hundreds of people sleeping in tents, organizing rallies and marches and getting constant media coverage.

For the most part, what the protesters want is to end the 'inequity' of what they say is special treatment for Wall Street banks and corporations at the expense of the average person.

The movement has attracted its share of off-message participants, with those calling for a free college education for all, and outlawing all credit agencies, and it's unclear who the leaders are—but there seems to be no attempt to end the protests for now. Many 'Occupy' groups say they are making plans to keep protesting through the coming winter months.

Ireland:

Dubbed the "next Greece" because of government spending cuts stemming from the 2008 recession, hundreds of Irish have taken to Dublin and set up camp in front of the Central Bank of Ireland. With banners saying, "Occupy Dublin", and inspired by events in the U.S., the protesters are railing against proposed austerity measures like cuts in health care, pensions, and the bailing out of Irish banks by the government.

Greece:

The country continues to see protests in the streets over austerity plans. Greece is fighting through a deep recession and a mountain of public debt expected to reach 162 percent of GDP this year.

Greek tax inspectors will go on strike next week to protest against planned wage and pension cuts. This is a threat to revenue collection efforts that are already falling behind budget targets imposed by international lenders.

Much of Greece is expected to be shut down by a general strike on Oct. 19.

Great Britain:

London is going to have its own 'Occupy" protests gearing up this coming weekend.

Earlier this month, some 30,000 people took to the streets of Manchester on Oct. 2, to protest against austerity cuts to public services and pensions. Manchester was the host for the ruling Conservative party's annual conference for 2011. Protesters as varied as students and retirees carried banners reading “Unite and Fight.”

In a message to demonstrators, British Foreign Secretary William Hague said that the previous government had lied to the population about the state of the country’s economy.

Several British cities have seen protests in the thousands during the last few months against the government's austerity measures. In August, more than 2,700 people were arrested after destruction and looting spread from the capital to other cities in Great Britain.

Iceland:

Three years after the financial collapse brought down Iceland's banking system, protesters are still angry over government austerity measures. Some 4,000 people turned out in front of the parliament building last weekend to throw eggs and yogurt at the country's prime minister.

The protesters included fathers and mothers who say they are unable to pay off their mountains of debt since Iceland became the first European country to effectively go bankrupt, in October 2008. They claim most bailout money went to banks instead of ordinary citizens.

China:

Many middle-class homeowners have been taking to the streets across the country in the last few months, and the protests continue.

A 77-year-old retired doctor recently stripped naked on the steps of the local courthouse over the demolition of her property in a booming Shanghai neighborhood to make room for new high rises.

Other protesters around the country, like farmers, want a stop to confiscation of their land or to get better compensation for lost property. People are also protesting for cleaner air and water and safer food. Truck drivers and taxi drivers say they want relief from soaring fuel prices.

Many of the new protesters are said to be homeowners or middle-class professionals, and protests have taken place in places like Beijing and other major cities along with some in the countryside. The seaport of Dalian saw 20,000 protestors.

Chile:

Protests there have been a weekly occurrence according to reports. College students have been protesting against higher tuition costs. Many are on strike against the rising costs, refusing to attend classes. The costs are part of austerity measures by the government.

Argentina:

Students and teachers by the hundreds have taken to the streets of Buenos Aires in protest against the government's move to privatize the country's education system. Many teachers participated in a 24-hour strike last week and organized a massive rally in the capital city, saying privatization would hurt the country's young people.

Indonesia:

Hundreds of mine workers at a Freeport-owned and operated mine in the West Papua area have been protesting low wages. Police opened fire on the protesters this past Monday, killing one man. Local Papuan miners receive $1.50 per hour in wages.

Syria:

Dozens more are reported dead in ongoing protests throughout the country against the government of President Bashar al-Assad. The U.N. says that some 2,900 people have been killed after seven months of protests.

Adding to the country's problems are unilateral U.S. and European Union economic sanctions which appear to be hurting Syria's economy. More sanctions against the Syrian government are reportedly to come in the next few weeks.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,959 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Edited by: southern Oct 13, 11, 21:46 #90
The point is how much you are able to extract from the capitalist thieves.In this case a Putin approach to oligarchs ''either you give half your property or you get in prison'' does not harm.But this means buonapartism.Several parts are ready for this.

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