US Polonia gives PiS 80% backing

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 13:11 #241
I-S, yes they are and my point is that they are. Thanks for your attention.

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 12, 11, 13:16 #242
3 out of 10 Poles voted the same way as 80% of the Polonians that voted according to this thread's OP. If the US Polonians that voted are "radically out of step with Poland" then 30% of Poland is "radically out of step with Poland" too, but this is an absurd thing to say.

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Oct 12, 11, 13:26 #243

Des Essientes
If the US Polonians that voted are "radically out of step with Poland" then 30% of Poland is "radically out of step with Poland" too, but this is an absurd thing to say.

If US Polonia was in step with Poles, 3 out of 10 member of Polonia would have voted PiS. But 8 out of 10 actually voted PiS, nearly three times as many as would have voted PiS if Polonia reflected how Poland voted as a whole.

So why is it that Polonia was so overwhelming in its support of a party that couldn't even get the votes of one in three Poles? Is it that the best and brightest of Polonia returned to Poland (as I suggest) or that only the poorer and less educated left Poland in the first place (as peterweg believes) or is there something else which makes the voting Polonia so different (in terms of political views) to Poles?

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,789 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Oct 12, 11, 13:39 #244
I-S, yes they are and my point is that they are. Thanks for your attention. I'm attentive enough. You say they are socialists while claiming that you hate labeling. What is it then that overcame your reservation - need of showing off or you are a plain attention seeker/

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: jwojcie Oct 12, 11, 13:40 #245
Des Essientes : The Gorale branch of my family has always been staunchly progressive. delphiandomine: Interesting, because in Poland, no such thing exists. Oh delphiandomine, your are so wrong... ;) :

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 13:49 #246
Broadly socialist, yes. However, I more than many see that it's an inherently complicated issue and not black&white. Politics are changing. No longer can Modern Studies teachers allow themselves to teach so plainly the ideas which were formerly taught regarding the political spectrum. I do hate labelling, it's just a fact!

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,789 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 14:02 #247
roadly socialist, yes. However, I more than many see that it's an inherently complicated issue and not black&white. Politics are changing. No longer can Modern Studies teachers allow themselves to teach so plainly the ideas which were formerly taught regarding the political spectrum. I do hate labelling, it's just a fact! Thank you

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Oct 12, 11, 14:24 #248

or that only the poorer and less educated left Poland in the first place (as peterweg believes)

That's my view.

Without even resorting to the usual insults such as "Ukrainians" - look at where the emigration from Poland took place. They left from the incredibly poor (and still so to this day) Eastern borderlands - apart from Lwów and perhaps the modern day Ivano-Frankivsk, there was really nothing much to note in that area. They also left at the start of the new Polish state - so it does make sense that the elite would have stayed while the poor peasants would have left for a better life.

I suspect these poor peasants would have also been incredibly sentimental about the homeland - especially as literacy wouldn't have been high, but they would have retained the stories told by their ancestors. So - it's probably unlikely that they would have been able to read about what was happening in Poland. That probably translates into the modern day racism seen in the US Polonia (as told by their forefathers) - and thus the votes for PiS.

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Oct 12, 11, 14:34 #249

look at where the emigration from Poland took place. They left from the incredibly poor (and still so to this day) Eastern borderlands

Polish Highlanders who constitute a large number of the Chicago Polonians that voted in the election are not from the Eastern boarderlands, and the few thousand Polonians who voted in the election are not third or fourth generation Americans whose ancestors immigrated a century ago, but more recent immigrants. Delphiandomine's "analysis" above is absolutely worthless.

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Oct 12, 11, 14:38 #250

delphiandomine
I suspect these poor peasants would have also been incredibly sentimental about the homeland - especially as literacy wouldn't have been high, but they would have retained the stories told by their ancestors. So - it's probably unlikely that they would have been able to read about what was happening in Poland. That probably translates into the modern day racism seen in the US Polonia (as told by their forefathers) - and thus the votes for PiS.

While all of that is obviously true, the point made by Des Esseintes does hold: we are not talking about the 'Polish'-Americans here, we are talking about Polonia proper.

Given that that is the case, perhaps my suggestion that the best and the brightest of Polonia moved back to Poland in the 1990s explains the current political views in Polonia?

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 14:41 #251
the best and the brightest of Polonia moved back to Poland in the 1990s explains the current political views in Polonia? you must be joking - people only move back to Poland for retirement

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 14:41 #252
gumishu you must be joking - people only move back to Poland for retirement That certainly is not what I see in Warsaw.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Oct 12, 11, 14:44 #253

Polish Highlanders who constitute a large number of the Chicago Polonians that voted in the election are not from the Eastern boarderlands, and the few thousand Polonians who voted in the election are not third or fourth generation Americans whose ancestors immigrated a century ago, but more recent immigrants. Delphiandomine's "analysis" above is absolutely worthless.

Highlanders count as "poor peasants". I've never heard anyone refer to the Gorale as anything but poor mountain peasants.

And where's your evidence for who was voting in this election?

Then again, what would you know about Polish politics, having never been here?

As for the Polonia moving back - possibly, or even more likely, the brightest and best ones wouldn't be reading the rubbish that the Polonia print for themselves - they'd be too busy reading far more high brow sources. They'd probably also be pragmatic enough to know that voting would be absurd.

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Oct 12, 11, 15:31 #254

delphiandomine
They'd probably also be pragmatic enough to know that voting would be absurd.

You might have something there. Let's face it, PiS voters are more likely to be both less intelligent and more selfish than average and people who think that they retain the right to say how the Polish taxpayer's money is spent even though they themselves refuse to contribute in the slightest are also more likely to be both less intelligent and more selfish than average.

WielkiPolakThreads: 21 Posts: 155 Joined: Jun 3, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 16:01 #255
Where do people get the idea that those who live in the USA are stupid and those who live in Poland are so much smarter? Perhaps it is the other way round hence the voting went the way that it did?

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 16:02 #256
Where do people get the idea that those who live in the USA are stupid and those who live in Poland are so much smarter? Where did I say that people who live in the USA are stupid and those who live in Poland are even slightly smarter?

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Oct 12, 11, 16:13 #257

Everyone can vote for the party they like, but... what would PiS do for Polish Americans ?... Voting by Polish Americans doesn't make any sense for me, if they don't live here, why they vote ? I don't want to disenfranchise anyone, but I don't see the target of this voting :)

That's because they think they know better what's good for us, and it's just infuriating!
Polonia is cute when they think they are cultivating Polish tradition by dancing czech dances (polka :P).
It is mildly amusing, when it thinks that "busia" is an existing Polish word.
But it's maddening, when it's trying to interfere in matters that influance our real lives and treat real Poles with superiority and contempt.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 16:39 #258
Where do people get the idea that those who live in the USA are stupid and those who live in Poland are so much smarter? This forum might be one possible starting point for that assumption...

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 18:05 #259
JonnyM This forum might be one possible starting point for that assumption... Comparing the 'Polish'-Americans here with the Poles in Warsaw who also hold US citizenship might also lead one to that assumption.

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Edited by: peterweg Oct 12, 11, 18:26 #260

Where do people get the idea that those who live in the USA are stupid and those who live in Poland are so much smarter? Perhaps it is the other way round hence the voting went the way that it did?

Its a bit silly isn't it? However, the support for PiS is exclusivity from the poor and er, backward part of Poland. I would expect most American Poles to had the benefit of a goodish education and not to be dirt poor. So there must be another reason for support of a socialist party.

How about a misguide belief that nationalism of hating your neighbours and the EU is actually good for Poland? If you are constantly subjected to anti-EU propaganda (EU=Socialist=Bad) they maybe you would conclude PiS is good for Poland, missing completely massive the economic benefit that EU is for Poland.

Another thought is that the outcome of the election is of so little concern to Polonia that the perceived pro-USA stance of PiS is worth voting for.

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Oct 12, 11, 18:31 #261

peterweg
the poor and er, backward part of Poland.

I actually very much like those parts of Poland and spend pretty much all of my holidays there. Nice places and great people. You should go check it out.

peterweg
How about a misguide belief that nationalism of hating your neighbours and the EU is actually good for Poland?

That could well be the reason. Polonia do tend to have a lot of misguided (i.e. totally wrong) beliefs about Poland.

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Edited by: peterweg Oct 12, 11, 18:55 #262

PWEI:

I actually very much like those parts of Poland and spend pretty much all of my holidays there. Nice places and great people. You should go check it out.

Well, my wife's family is from there and I own a farm in PiS country, I'll move there when I can. The family are OP voters, even thought the males of the family hate the Jews/blacks/Russians/Germans/Gays, so you'd think they fit the PiS mould.

They have 'seen how the PiS operate and won't vote for them again'.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 19:28 #263
peterweg Well, my wife's family is from there and I own a farm in PiS country, I'll move there when I can. Cracking beer down there too.

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Oct 12, 11, 20:42 #264

PWEI:

If US Polonia was in step with Poles, 3 out of 10 member of Polonia would have voted PiS. But 8 out of 10 actually voted PiS, nearly three times as many as would have voted PiS if Polonia reflected how Poland voted as a whole.

I think delphie would agree with me on this one, what's Poland's current rural population percentage? 40, maybe even 30% now? Up until a few decades ago 80% of Polish immigrants to the US were from the countryside. http://www.poloniatoday.com/immigration1.htm Now I think it's still something like 60% (mostly people from Podhale, Podlaskie, Podkarpackie) althought there are many immigrants from the large cities as well. If you look at PiS supporters in Poland itself you'll find people from the same areas voting for them.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 20:58 #265
PennBoy: Up until a few decades ago 80% of Polish immigrants to the US were from the countryside. Yes, but are the Polonia who have been in the USA for more than a few decades the ones who are voting? And if they are, doesn't that make it even more indefensible that they are allowed to vote after having lived in the USA for 40 years?!

peterwegThreads: 35 Posts: 1,997 Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 22:59 #266
PWEI: doesn't that make it even more indefensible that they are allowed to vote after having lived in the USA for 40 years?! As far as I know most countries allow expats to vote, UK and USA certainly. So I don't see why they think its so 'indefensible'.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 23:22 #267
peterweg: As far as I know most countries allow expats to vote, UK and USA certainly. So I don't see why they think its so 'indefensible'. UK citizens who become non-resident can vote for 11 years only.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Oct 12, 11, 23:25 #268
peterweg: As far as I know most countries allow expats to vote, UK and USA certainly. So I don't see why they think its so 'indefensible'. UK certainly sets a time limit. Ten years outside UK I think it is. Poland, however, gives the vote to people who have never been to Poland and whose parents and grandparents have never been to Poland. Tell me that that is defensible!

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Oct 13, 11, 00:44 #269
PWEI: Poland, however, gives the vote to people who have never been to Poland and whose parents and grandparents have never been to Poland. Tell me that that is defensible! are you positively sure about that? and do you actually think those Polish-Americans who can't speak Polish really take part in the Polish elections?

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