Should Germany claim to be the victims in Poland?

In Dresden there was no military target at all.Only refugees from Pommern,etc.After the war the americans conducted survey which reached the conclusion that allied military raids on big cities had no impact at all at the fighting ability of Germany due to the different economy structure during the war.
Only when the allies started hitting strategic targets like energy plants,factories producing gasoline and important parts of ammunition,did the Germans start to have problems with armament production.The surveys were conducted by a team which included famous american economists like Galbraith who interviewed a lot of german officers,Speer among them.
In his book Speer calls the bombing of big cities a great strategic mistake of the allies.Moreover it increased will of Germans to defend their country and created homeless people ready to fight for Hitler.

in reply to your derogatory term,


normally,and exclusivly used by our late arriving cousins from accross the sea, "we" british prefering such nom de guerre for the enemy as " jerry" or possibly the older ,last war era "hun".

I hope not, more the old fashioned morality of the Geneva and Hague conventions Britain was a signatory of stating the plain fact that Bombings of civilians was to be viewed as a war crime in any future wars. Goering was to be hung, yet Harris was applauded(infact,he wasnt,he was thankfully shunned post war for being a vicious psychopath).

Yes, you keep telling yourself,then look at the actual written record of the RAF and USAAF targeting criteria,namely, did it burn well,and would it cause terror to a large civilian population.
I think the crux of your arguent seems to be ," The nazis did it,so why cant "we"?", which,no offense,seems a little flawed,if not morraly bankrupt.

I don't keep on telling myself anything mate........So who was it that flattened Germany?....The answer is the RAF.....I think that most of us brits and alot of envious Poles and other people are secretly proud of that fact.....and why shouldn't we be?

The scum who ran eastern europe for years were "morraly bankrupt" as you speak. Far worse then the germans you slam.

- You seem conveniently to forget that Germany was the bad guys in the war. They started a cruel aggressive war, defied the Allied armies rabidly (the Allies were actually the good guys) and spread destruction. Germany was the rabid dog of the war and there was no other choice but treat Germany as such. In order to kill an aggressive rabid dog at large you must shoot it down as soon as possible. You shoot at any part of its body; you've got no time to avoid shooting at this or that part of the body in order not to damage the fur. Carpet-bombing Dresden and other German cities was, first of all, effectual (spread panic amongst the fanatic Hitlerite population - the vast majority of Germans were so), and second was the German own strategy used in Warsaw, London, Belgrade. They got theirs at last. The so-called revisionists now try depict the Germans as either the good guys of WWII (who wanted to finish off communism - hehehe!), or at least as good as or equal to the Allies. Of course, many Germans and Germanophiles seem to like this, but what they like is a falsification of historical truth, I dare think.



- So the top Nazi war criminal, Albert Speer, is your authority, southern...?
:)



- Where did you take it from that the commies in 'eastern europe' (sic) were 'far worse' than the Germans under Hitler? From some neo-Nazi leaflet? In reality, the commies and Nazis were equally bad, both being left-wing fascists.

I haven't noticed isthatu ever slamming the Germans; I've noticed him giving facts about them. Unlike yourself, isthatu is a knowledgeable and eloquent man, so, well, you shouldn't speak arrogantly but humbly to him.
:)

Albert Speer was the nazi official mostly respected by western authorities.They expressed great interest in his opinions and he was considered to be by far one of the most objective and realistic source of what really happened in WW2.He directed the whole german armament production and was responsible for a big part of german defense,so he had the best big picture of the real damage that western air raids caused to Germany,he knew it first hand.He was heavily interrogated by american experts about this exactly,the effects of bombing in german ability to conduct the war and some other issues of economic importance and the results of the interrogation were devastating for the strategic thinking of RAF and USAF before 1944 when they started to change their tactics.American officers tried to hide the results and pressed the interrogators not to give anything to publicity because they could have damaged the career of many important military persons.





The Germans mostly used their planes to hit military targets like airports,planes on the ground,camps,ammunition stocks,roads,bridges etc.They operated near the front that is why they had short range bombers like the Ju88.This tactic caused great damage to english defense,so the British sent planes to bomb Berlin in order to turn German planes against english cities for revenge.After changing its original tactic,Luftwaffe started to lose.The other attacks of german planes were short and were conducted to spread terror and paralyze the spirit for resistance just before german troops entered.They were by no means supposed to exterminate the civilian population or destroy the whole country infrastructure cuase Germans needed the industries and facilities of the countries they captured.

- Really? What 'Western authorities' do you mean specifically? How about if Speer lied to please some? Was he really that 'objective' and 'realistic'?



- Wow, so according to Southern it was the Britsh who caused the Germans to bomb Brit cities? The British are to blame for this, eh? Where did you take this revelation from? From the the psychopathic Anglophobe (and Polonophobe) David Irnigv perhaps?
:)



- Exactly so.

Southern, what is your nationality?
:)

First off the term Neo-Nazi is a retarded term juiced up by liberals. Who has ever heard anyone refer themselves as a neo nazi? Liberal nonsense. You must be a card carrying member of the party to be a Nazi. Equally bad? You are mistaken. The germans had a strong sense of family values and racial pride. The Communist marxist scum only acomplished tyranny and mass murder, far worse then Hitlers regime I might add. Moscow show trials where the truth was no weapon. Thousands of lives washed away with the signature of old stalin himself. I could go on for hours.

Gallbraith and many historians and economists.Even Times had an article about him during the war calling him a brilliant example of new generation technical people with leading abilities and future view.People who employed him after he was released from jail.The court in Nurmberg which recognized the value of his testimony.

Many agree on that.Even the famous english historian Liddel Hart.The decision to send planes to bomb Berlin even if it had very few casualties saved England cause it turned german attacks to focus in big cities instead of military targets,radars etc.London was bombed after Berlin.
You make a mistake.Hitler wanted a Blitzkrieg,not a long term war and a war between soldiers,not a total war.Time was against Hitler and he did not want involvement of civilians.

I dont think so,if they are,theyve been watching Dambusters too many times(did you know,more Poles and Ukrainines,slave workers, were killed in that raid than Germans btw?) and,why shouldnt "we" be proud? Oh,I dont know,maybe that mass,indiscriminate murder of women and children doesnt seem something to be all that proud of,IMHO.

oh,and the USAAF and not forgeting the Red Army and the Germans themselves in many cases to create "festung".

Yep, OK,whatever,Im sure you wouldnt swap 60 years of Soviet influence for 60 years of nazi ocupation,then again,from reading your nexts posts,Im not too sure,you sound like a excelent cadidate for one of the polnische legions hitler created from various traitors and dregs of Polish sociaty.
Exhibit A

( I imagine quite a few people have,Ive certainly met a few NF in my time....)
Exhibit B

( Lets hope you arnt a Slav then Szczery,or your fooked.)
Exhibit C

(could this be that gitler only had 12 years while Stalin et al had nigh on 70?)
Exhibit D

Because of course, Third Reich trials were the epitomy of fairness and justice wernt they...)
Exhibit E

Yes,much like the Nurnberg ralies........


Thanks Puzz, though I will always,as you may notice,slam the nazi's !


Well, easy now Puzz', This is a sort of truth. "We" didnt "ask" the nazis to bomb our cities but,one of the main reasons the luftwaffe turned from bombing the RAF airfeilds during the B of B was in retaliation for an RAF raid on Berlin. In an awfull way this brought about a relief on the hard pressed fighter command but unfortunatly led to the London Blitz.Once in this escalating tit for tat bombing raids Britains other cities soon became targets with german cities being added to RAF target lists.

One thing not to lose sight of though,and this I feel is very important, had the nazis the airpower the allies later had,Im sure Hitler would have smashed up British cities just as "efectivly" as "we" did german cities.

- 'Envious' of what, ye lorry-drivin' boffin?!
:)



- But the RAF raid on Berlin surely wasn't done deliberately to bring about the relief, was it?
:)



- Why don't you fuk off and die, Nazi creep? Yeah, a szczery (genuine) Nazi creep you seem to be indeed.
:)



- So southern, what is your nationality? Why are you so afraid to divulge your sweet secret?
:)))

- Wow, so the fact that these folks - including a hack from Times, a great authority indeed, and a famous economist but no military expert at all - praised Speer means to southern that Speer was right that 'the bombing of big [German] cities [was] a great strategic mistake of the allies,' doesn't it? Why would it be so? Southern states that 'the other attacks of german planes were short and were conducted to spread terror and paralyze the spirit for resistance just before german troops entered.' Southern seems to suggest that this German strategy worked. Why then does he seem to suggest that basically the same Allied strategy in Germany didn't work, that it only 'increased will of Germans to defend their country and created homeless people ready to fight for Hitler'? Isn't southern using a double-standard here? Now southern states that



What specific 'results' did they press the interrogators (including Gallbraith?!) to conceal and why would those results, if revealed, have damaged careers of many army VIPs? Would southern argue that those men's careers would have been damaged because of their 'war crimes' against the Germans?
:)



- Actually, at present there's lots of liberalism towards creeps like you, so you're raising your ugly conks yet again. Bolder and bolder, Hitler's heirs.

I wouldnt have thought so ,no.
BTW, Speer was a murdering ba8888d upto his armpits in the Slave labor and crimes against humanity of the nazi econamy, the peice of dirt should have dangled in Nurnberg.Just my opinion.......the only reason he didnt was as well as being a scum bag he was a coward who sold out his criminal mates.

I think that the Nurenburg trails were a shame. It seems so strange that the British slaughtered so many people colonizing the World yet never stood trail at all. It is just another case of of 'might is right'.

Can you give me figures for that? Or are you just trotting out the usual revisionist garbage? Sure there were battles,more often than not these involved the "British" siding with one local ruler against another and as often as not the "British" forces were made up of 3 white guys and thousands of Indians/Africans/Arabs. If you want to look for colonial slaughter you need to look to the French,Belgiun,German and Potrugese Empires,they were the ones with policies of ethnic cleansing where as the British Empire,by no means perfect, was always founded on trade and predominantly asimilation with local customs and peoples.Remember this Britian is part of a comenwealth of nations,former colonies and territories,all are members of the comenwealth because they choose to retain ties with what many people saw/see as "the mother country", If the British Empire was as despotic as claimed by many of you who were educated by Moscow why do you think this exists?



Really,it was a shame that the nazi butchers were put on trail? Whats more of a shame is that the Soviet butchers were never put on trial.

You never lived through it. The outcome may have been different if the situation was reversed. But your not polish anyway so you what would you know about the communism regime that was over poland.

You know what.Because you signed the law that members of the allied forces cannot be prosecuted for war crimes.

Wow,what an unbeatable argument you put forward,what did you do to fight communism then? Did you defect to the west? Did you fight in Korea? Malaya?Vietnam?Angola? Hungary? Timosiara?
Funny thing is,Im guessing your pretty young anyway dude,so what excactly do you remember of Polands Polish communist times then?
And with your logic,Your not german,what do you know about nazi germany?
But lets focus on this enigmatic statement;

Im thinking you may be refering to my statement regarding 60 years of Soviet influence V 60 years of nazi occupation? In that case, you would prefer 60 years of nazi occupation.
Right,too right the outcome would have been different,lets start with a few questions ;
Q,Did you go to school? Did you finish school in your late teens? Did you go onto higher education?
If the answer to any of those is yes you wernt living under nazi occupation but comunist or democratic Polish govt.
Q, Did you and your family live in a ghetto outside a German town such as Posen or Breslau?
If the answer is no,you didnt live under the proposed rules of nazi long term occupation.
Q, did you,your sisters,cousins etc have to go off and work 16 hour shifts as soon as they hit their mid teens?
Moscow never did this, Berlin did.


I did,I cant remember that one mate,had I been drinking?

I mean the english government,you the English in general,not you personally.

Exactly, these new arrivals come and see the modern day Poland and just want 'to take a slice of the action'. I wonder what these teachers of English would think standing in a queue for an hour to buy a pot of coffee and then to earn a hundred pounds a month. They come to Poland, look at the countryside and thing 'my God this is wonderful. Learn a few daft words in Polish and then think that they can talk down their noses to the rest of us.

Is that true? Why? I always wondered why Stalin wasn't vilified in the manner which I think he should have been! He was an evil, vicious monster...an equal opportunity murderer!

It is easy to find why.Because if they did not exclude war crimes conducted by allies,the german lawyers would set charges against Soviet Union for the killing of POWs and the atrocities in german cities,GB for civilian bombing and USA for the bombs in Nagashaki,Hiroshima.

Stop stiring,your a bleedin Russian not a Pole anyway!
No, a lot of us in the UK didnt have to que for an hour for things in the 80s,they just wernt in the shops or were out of the price range of the millions of unemployed here at the time, you lot dont get a monopoly on hard luck stories and state oppresion,what do you think was going on under Thatcher and her destruction of the unions and decimation of the mining industry and communities.

No, this is a version of some sort of truth, allied war criminals were tried,and excecuted. It was actually Stalin who put a stop on further investigations afterthe war as he knew the amount of soviet crimes that would be uncovered. Say what you like about the British in ww2,but they didnt have all that much to worry about regarding warcrimes so,in short,stop jumping at the standby ,all embracing bogey man of churchill and blaming the fat old drunk for all your woes.


Thats just not the case,none of these even entered the circle of considered "warcrimes" untill many years after the war.
And Nagasaki and hiroshima,in case you hadnt noticed were in Japan,therfore not covered by the nurnberg trails.

USA could also be prosecuted for the unlimited submarine war that chose.It had certain participation in big german cities bombing.
I am not sure about the jurisdiction of the court in Nuremberg.Anyway due to these facts,some people like Doenitz were not convicted to death for his decision to start unlimited submarine war in the Atlantic and Luftwaffe officers were not convicted for the air raids to GB.

as could all nations,remember,a Red Navy, Baltic Fleet submarine was responsible for the greatest civilian loss of life at sea,ever,in '45.

It was limited striktly to the "european" war and not the war in the Far East,the show trials and lack of sentencing of Japanese criminals had more to do with Japans strategic position for the US in the all new cold war and did not come under nurnberg.

This actually comes down to the "only following orders " defence, Goering was certainly convicted on similar charges as head of the luftwaffe.

I think it was decided as a part of the terms of Japan's surrender that its leaders would not be charged because Japan surrendered under conditions while Germany surrendered unconditionally.



Yes,his lawyers tried to refer to Harris but the judge interrupted them on the basis of the agreement that war crimes commited by allies would not be discussed.If I remember Goering was found guilty on all four counts.(crimes against peace,war crimes,crimes against humanity etc) cause he participated in decisions regarding slave labor,extermination of Jews,shooting of civilians and preparation of war.

You know exactly what i mean Puzzler....Envious of the Country that bombed flat the Country that was responsible for killing 1/5th of your people!!

- Nope, I don't know what exactly you mean.

Aw, so have you got any evidence of our alleged envy? Please, provide it, please.

The way some folks think really amazes me, I can't help it.
:))))

To answer the question, Poland has never set out to victimise Germans on a large scale. How can they be victims if they have suffered precious little loss? Maybe I'm biased because I live in the largely pro-German region of Silesia but Germans are not attacked when they come to visit Breslau (Wrocław), an area that they occupied but were cruel in. Also, Gleiwitz and Hindenburg, Gliwice and Zabrze, were strongholds where the Germans were not victims. Killing through resistance and necessity can hardly be described as victimising people

- We have never 'victimised' them; it has always been the other way around. And they have always very adroitly played the victims of the Poles. I have noticed that on the individual level many criminals like to play the victim. This victim-playing tendency seems to be part of the criminal mentality.

Same with all aggressive and expansionist nations, such as Germany.



- Oops, the piggy-pretending -to-be-English is showing its true mucky fascist Germanophile colours. And this thing has been living in the UK since the 1980s! What kind of Britophobic scum has the UK taken in over those years?



- An excellent question and point, shopgirl. Well worthy of a separate post. There are lots of facts in connection with your question that even such a bright and perceptive lady like you could find truly amazing, I surmise.

Stalin was a far worse murderous monster than Hitler, period.

And such Che Guevara - a psychopathic serial killer who delighted in murdering teenagers - is also far worst than many Nazis.

Yet the two have been presented by the media establishment in a positive light.... Why is that?