Should Germany claim to be the victims in Poland?

How should I justify this? It was war...

War between people who hate each other, who want to kill each other....but in the end you get german lands free of Germans.

You remember your dead and we soon remember ours.

And how Lukasz showed with the uprisings and such...Poles wanted it too...the war.
Or else why did they boast "In one week in Berlin", why did they aggravate the Germans. No talks about a corridor to Danzig....

You just got your country back because of the Treaty of Versailles, whose wrongness and unfairness was the biggest cause for Hitlers rising in Germany...and you wanted more!
You were as nationalistic and fascistic as the Germans.
Or did you forget as Hitler destroyed the Czechs that you helped yourself to czech territory too?

It's all a bit complicated, but believe me...the mood was always poisoned!

done and done

i'm really sorry that you guys had to go through that apparently the whole night.

BB seems to like twisting history as it suits his views and only randomly relating to other peoples posts as in some points you guys actually make good points.

i am sorry that he is attacking your nation verbally and plays the "superior german" game all the time. please do not give in and lower yourself at his level as this would just mean we all normal people go backwards...

i'm embarrassed that BB is actually living in my hometown and he should know better but i wrote already about his resistance to understand (and accept) the obvious...

i can only hope that your views of todays germany are not getting blurred by the way BB tries to show it. he might consider himself a good and representative german, 70 years ago many people in germany would have agreed... today he is part of a desperate minority...

I searched for sense in your post but couldn't find any...

Now do you have something to support your allegations???
Where was I wrong?

To the contrary I could show that your postings about that nobody cares for the center and that most Germans are not interested are just lies.

So what do you have?

"Desperate minority", hehe...:) You wish!

:-)
good morning...

The problem with Gerries is that there are very few normal Germans. They are either muliticultural "friends of humanity"/"citizens of the world"/"European first" etc. or semi-retarded rednecks getting unhealthy exited watching propaganda films with hitlerjugend boys marching...

hello falkster



I have to say it ;) (it is just to BB)




what can be interesting ...

Russian authorities decided decided in towns where they could find native German society ... after taking town ... were giving their soldiers week or two to mix-blood with conquered German women ... if you know what I mean ... so here is the result Bratwurst boy ...




as to your Wroclaw as well as I know Russians had good time with "native German" females there ...

Now you know what is the origin of Polish opinion about nowadays "German" nazist form Eastern Germany :) Russians havent done they job properly ... because boneheads like you still exist :( even they are slavs

Now you play the Bratwurst game.By approving soviet soldiers' actions you make the Poles appear barbaric and german violence justified.

what is wrong with showing Russians achievments ... all in all it is fact Russians have taken revange (Germans killed 20 mln Russians) ... it is form hisory books ... and they wanted to be sure that next Hitler will not apear (at least) in Eastern Germany ... so they decided to "mix blood" whatever it means ... but maybe you are right it is issue not for PF but German-Russian forum

I don't think that he is approving that but... If Germans got a fair treatment after WW2 the whole problem of "expelled" wouldn't exist today... If you know what I mean...

as to Poland it wasnt our decison to change borders ... We were expeled form Lwow and Wilno and this descission was made by Russia UK USA ... so Polish people were expeled in the same way form east ... (succesfuly Russian authoritues havent decided to mix-blood with us )




the fact that Poles in'20s won some up risings agains Germans (because Poles were majority) means that we wanted the war in '39 ... and that is why Germans decided to exterminate our nation ... BB yes Germans were victims of WWII and JEWS POLES BRITS provoked you to start the war ...

I guess they would have been expelled somewhere else.
Kielbasa facet plays with you.He provokes you in order to make you confess that you wanted war,wanted to kill Germans,Jews etc,that you had the same intentions with Germans and as a result you are guilty as well,so you have to assume responsibility.
He presents the reaction as the initial goal by twisting the time.

Most of them were in fact Ukrainians and Belarusians.

And of Asian,Siberian origin.

I don't need BB to say what I think.

you know when we look on foccuses made in Germany ... last time 3 reich is very popular there ... air atacks on German towns were war crimes (without eling anything about air atacks on London or Warszawa) poor expeled Germans who voted on Hitler and after 39 started to kill their neigbours or make servants form them are vicitms ... Poles Jews and Brits provoked poor Germans who were humiliated after WWI ... Poles in their history proveked Germans by doing up rises (what a traitors they wanted to live in Poland not in Germany)

You know this center is supported by gov ... I dont think that they will show in this center how Germans stolen land they were expeled form ... yes expeling people isnt glourious but when we look on fact that 80% of Germans living on this land (the higest level form whole Germany) strongly supported Hitler ... it looks pathetic ... BTW who live in the past who want to discusse about history ... there is one importnat fact GERMANS HAVENT PAYED any contriubutions for Poland ... if they want to open this discussion we can start it ... idea of center is supported by Merkel and her gov ...

30% of members of German organisation that want to build this center are former nazists (SS soldiers or members of NSDAP)

Erika Steibach



who is going to be face of this center ... she has very interesting history

Her father was wermaht officer in occupied Poland after 39 (together with German forces) she moved to Poland after WWII expeled ... now is going to build the center with strong gov support ... she is the face of expeled people form Poland ...

what can be interestin Germans were not expeled form Poland after WWI but after WWII



hitlers war against "sub-human" slavs,Russia poland & serbia




The Invasion Of Poland

What about the "remaining" 70% ?...

I don't think that Germans think they are the victims of Poland, and i don't think that a so-called museum would change anything.

:)

I think that 70% are their families ...

LoL ;)

Do you really think that this museum project is "dangerous" ?...

i do not understand why our chancellor is in favour of this centre especially after the very recent things going on between our two countries. it looks like there is a lack of sensibility...


and that is one of the reasons why the centre is very controversial...
you would expect our gov though to back off in face of these facts. not to do so simply shows how bad the current gov in germany actually is...

we should not forget though that we talk about a rather small centre/museum which will loose initial attention relatively quickly ( iam not saying that to justify it!) and we should not make it bigger in this discussion than it actually is...

the whole thing makes me shake my head really...

not so much because one or the other in here is right or wrong but more because i think a different approach is needed within europe at all...


edit

well said... and true...

we will see what will happen in future ... I know one thing our PM Tusk is the best what could happen for improvment of our reationship I think ball is on your side ...

as to this centrer ... all political fractions are against ...

Im sorry,this cannot be used as "evidence". The Daily Mail was run by Lord Rothermere,a upporter of Moselys British Union of Fascists and also supporter of "Herr Hitler's" nazi regime in Germany at the time,even after the declaration of war by Mr Chamberlin on the 3rd the mail took to calling hitler "herr Hitler". and calling for peace between britain and germany. In other words,the Daily Mail of the '30s was as bad as todays daily mail....
As to the main part of the topic;
The germans expelled from their ancestral homes have as much right to pity and a memorial as anyone else. Anything else is just jingoitic and spitefull. Puts me in mind of the worst type of US jewish lobby groups who wanted a monopoly on suffering.
What right has anyone today to say that it was OK for little girls to be raped and murdered or grannies to be exppeled from their marital homes?

And they obviously have a right to build It but If German government support this idea we have a right to not like It.



If that was so bad then blame SU, USA, UK and France. Most of Poles after WW2 would have preffered borders from 39.

it was Russian army ... but it wasnt ok

Istahu do you find RAF air atacks on Germany as war crime ... I think the same people will build some museum about that without showing Battle of Britan

There is no "higher" reasons in my opinion. 99% of politicians (no matter from what country) have neither honor or dignity. Nearly every decisions, stands are populist aimed to improve their popularity rankings. If she support such center, it simply means that her advisers think that this is the best option from all others.

...and that she can get voters on her side from supporting this center.
Which speaks against your "desperate minority" argument!

:)

Every group has a right to commemorate their history.
You don't have to like it but you must accept it. Basta!

This is so true and a big reason why the majority see the victims not as Polish, but Jewish.

What I wanted to ask, would something like this be an issue before 1989 or is this a new way of bringing up the past?

Carol

I don't know if you heard of the famous "Frauenkirche" in Dresden?
In the horrible Feuersturm she was destroyed and stood destroyed for decades.
After the re-unification millions of Dresdeners and other Germans gathered money to make
an identical re-building possible.
And you know what? English gave money too...and even more...a descendant of one of the Bomberpilots works as an artist with metal and he himself made the new big cross.
And he was there...at the re-opening...that I call honest reconciliation!




Och falkster...I'm sure you don't know it (like so many things happening in Germany)...But there is already an exhibiton "Forced Ways"...right now wandering through all german lands. MILLIONS of people already visiting...but wait....actually only the same few "desperate" people again and again, right? :)
The center in Berlin (or Danzig) is just meaned as a steady home adress, that's all....

PS: Others say we have actually such a steady home...in the Deutsche Museum where also is shown a steady exhibition about die Flucht as part of our history....but many people just want an extra place!
(It's planned in the ex-Anhalter Bahnhof where many of the refugees came through before getting settled down in whole Germany)

last time Germans realized that they should be more important ... they want to have seat in ONZ they want to lead Europe ... they send their soldiers for forigin missions... and they want to talk about history (they have forgoten that they havent payed Poland anything ... so if they really want ... )