Should I learn both Polish and German

Lots of people who are native speakers of English know very little about English literature. Lots of people who are native speakers of German know very little about German literature. Lots of people... you get my drift. Not everyone even likes literature. But this does not mean they cannot speak a given language, I hope?

Perhaps it limits their knowledge (and command) of the language though...

True it wasnt something that i was like thrilled at doing at school <YAWN>

I am learning Polish with no knowledge of polish literature ... from next month i will be learning a few other languages alongside year two of polish as well.

Learning and liking English lit only (only!?) teaches you how to think about the world and the people around you. To make connections between cultures and philosophies. To investigate history, to try and understand the writers and the social movements behind the works you read.

But you're right. Many native born Americans who speak English well do not read literature of any kind at all and do not discuss it or think about it. Many don't even read the daily local newspaper.

Makes them no less proficient at speaking the language, in and of itself, if they don't, but it certainly does limit them in other ways.

You can mimic, copy and internalize correct grammar forms simply by listening to someone speak a language, if you are observant enough and you do it long enough.

But that process is not truly "thinking" or "learning". That's mimicry. Or, more accurately, rote memorization.

I will try and read the literature of Poland in English first, while I am learning Polish. Then try to reread the lit in Polish later on, when I understand the language better.

I am hoping I am capable of doing that.

We'll see in September.

That's how children learn their first language :-)
Of course the deeper you go, the more you immerse yourself in the culture (literature, history etc) of a country, the better your overall command of a language will be. Nevertheless, an interest in literature is not a prerequisite for acquiring foreign language skills. Just sayin'.

Sofi,

Absolutely correct! It limits and dilutes their impressions of the new language. If people at least admitted their lack of familiarity with literature as preventing a deeper and more rewarding, i.e. accurate, level of understanding,....no problem.

To say though, "Oh, come on Marek! I've never read Twain, Hemingway etc.. and I understand EVRYTHING!" is plain false. This becomes most apparent when an educated native speaker of a language uses a pithy, elegant phrase from a play, poem or novel to highlight a point and the other person, the foreigner, is left annoyed and clueless!
Whose fault is that? I't not the native speaker's job to "dumb down" their level of language for non-natives who haven't taken the time or love to really absorb the target culture!!

Marek

Recently. I was conversing with a German colleague. At first, we began (of course!) in German. Later, at her insistance, I switched to English, just to be social. So far so good. I proceeded, drawing upon famous American expressions, i.e. "until you see the whites of their eyes." etc., quotes familiar to the average educated US-native speaker, to stress what I was trying to say. My colleague then proceeded to say, my quote was incorrect English, and that it should be "by the time you see the whites in their eyes" which is of course nonsense. Firstly, it's not the original quote, secondly, here's another instance of a foreigner pretending to know more about English than an educated native speaker, instead of freely admitting, "Say, Marek. Ya know, I'm not sure I know what you mean!"
And such happens with dramatic regularity.

Marek

Bookratt,

My advice to you is to start with simple short stories, preferrably from the modern era, e.g. Orzeszkowa, Rozewicz, Andrzejewski etc. just to get your feet wet. Poetry can be immensely difficult and frustrating, even in one's native language. Therefore, I would avoid it if I can.

How about contemporary literature? Orzeszkowa is ancient by now, her Polish has dated rather badly, and Różewicz and Andrzejewski are authors from the mid-twentieth century... How about some really fresh blood? Since you think a sound knowledge of literature is so important to the foreign language student, can you name at least two young Polish writers who are popular right now? And I mean young! (Under or about 40) ;-) And what have you read from them? Did you like it or not?

Which books do you recommend, Magdalena?

I live in the US now, so I probably cannot get my hands on all of them in the time I have left here, but I can try.

Well, that's a lot to ask as I have no idea what your level is ;-)
But I would definitely recommend starting out with classic children's stories. Preferably translated from English, or with an English version to hand - like Pinocchio. I think it's a very good idea to read a chapter in English, so as to understand what's going on, and then turn to the Polish and fight your way through. I did that with Italian, a long long time ago... I could actually read and understand Italian back then, those were the days! ;-)
But I digress. If your Polish is still rather wobbly, it might actually be a good idea to borrow some primary school Polish study books, which contain so called "czytanki", as they are written in simple, clear, and unambiguous Polish. I know they might seem childish and boring due to the subject matter, on the other hand, they are usually accompanied by grammar exercises and reading comprehension questions, and last but not least - you might get quite a few glimpses of the Polish way of life through them.
Once you have a rather-more-than-basic grasp of the grammar, you might want to try Miron Białoszewski's prose, as he wrote in very simple, unadorned Polish, but his subject matter is rather fascinating. Try "Pamiętnik z Powstania Warszawskiego" (Memories from the Warsaw Uprising). Of the younger generation, there is Olga Tokarczuk (didn't like her too much), Jacek Dehnel is an up-and-coming name, but I've only read his poetry so far. There is also Dorota Masłowska, who experiments with language more or less successfully ("Wojna polsko-ruska pod flagą biało-czerwoną", "Paw królowej"). I generally know a lot more about contemporary poetry in Poland than prose. And I wouldn't say reading poetry is that difficult.
Either way, if I were you, I'd start with children's stories. Been there, done that, and it works :-)

I have often wondered if learning a foreign language from a child's perspective might work better than many of the teach yourself books and so on that are available. Children have to wait a few years before ordering meals at restaurants or looking for lost luggage, but to learn how the language works and practice making all the right sounds, the first-language speaker beginners' level might work better.

Any good childrens books in Polish?
Have any adults learnt English from Dr. Suess' The Cat in the Hat?

Hiya there, 'ol Magda, 'ol girl!

Orzeszkowa dated????!! I suppose Shakespeare, Dante (oops, he's Italian sorry about that), Milton, Dickens etc.. are "dated"? Hmmm, what qualifies "ancient" status here... very interesting.

Is it the age or the quality that counts? The Tatry mountains are probably thousands of years older than any man, but does that make them any less pleasurable??

I guess I can't quite follow the logic.

Marek

PS
Recently, some Polish friends were aguing about their country and the lack of patriotism they perceive. During the conversation, in Polish naturally, one said "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela!" Had I not known your national anthem, I couldn't have caught the gist!!

I've read Jerzy Kozinski, Ryszard Kapuczynski and several other "contemporary" Polish authors in the original. -:) Most enjoyable.
Marek

Serwus, Magda!

Znam "czytankow". Oni nazywaja sie "Lesebuecher" po niemiecku.
Marek

I taught English in ESL classes as a volunteer tutor.

Most adult students (mine right now are typically Asian or Indian and are professionals attempting to get licensed here, so I don't have as much experience with this) are turned off by children's books and refuse to use them; we are told in training not to use them with our adult students as it causes offense when we do so.

I have heard MUZZY makes a good program geared to young learners, but the last time I looked they didn't have Polish available--just German, French, English, Spanish, Russian and one more. Maybe Chinese?

You don't want to understand, do you? ;-)
Orzeszkowa is dated while Krasiński (Nie-boska komedia), an earlier writer, is most definitely not. Orzeszkowa was never that brilliant a writer to start with, and her language as we say in Polish "trąci myszką" - has become old-fashioned, quaint. She is no longer any fun to read, plus, if you learn to express yourself like her, you will sound like someone out of the mid-nineteenth century. Nobody wants that, I suppose. If you want a woman writer more or less from that era, try Nałkowska. You'll see the difference. Or Gojawiczyńska. These two are first half of the 20th century and make for an enjoyable read any day.
Kosiński, Kapuściński - yeah, you could call them "contemporary" in a very broad sense of the word. But still they are old news, so to speak ;-)
My criterion was the age of 40 or less. Can you rise to the challenge? ;-)))

I wouldn't recommend using children's books to teach anybody but yourself! ;-)
Especially in a formal course of training specialized handbooks should be used as a matter of course.
I just wanted to say that if you have an 'adult' Polish study book, and you combine that with children's literature of any level to kick-start the reading comprehension part, you can't really go wrong :-) I re-read most of my childhood books when my children were growing up and it's actually fun to go back, so despite everyhing you might find yourself happy to revisit classics like The Children of Bullerbyn Village by Astrid Lindgren or Andersen's fairytales, this time in Polish :-)

Magda,
Generational categories are not always barometers for taste or cultural acumen. Indeed, Orzeszkowa is "quaint" insofar as perhaps contemporary Germans might find Fontane slightly old-fashioned prose, or Americans Walt Whitman, for example.

I haven't read as much Polish as I have German, English or other continental literature to judge the accuracy of your assertions, therefore, i shall have to take your word for it!

Marek

You are right, of course. Generally speaking. On the other hand, there are authors in every country who "age" badly. This is because they were more or less mediocre even in their era. As time passes, whatever they wrote about loses its immediate appeal, and what begins to stand out is their shabby style, or poor descriptive skills, or whatever. This is why Walt Whitman, Dickens, Shakespeare, or the anonymous Anglo-Saxon poets shall never fade, but lots of other American and English authors disappear into oblivion within a hundred years or so. This is the point I'm trying to make. Eliza Orzeszkowa wrote correct 19th century prose. Nothing more. Her subject matter and style can be of interest to someone deeply in love with 19th century Poland and/or Europe, but I daresay she would not move the lay contemporary reader very much. Take Alfred Tennyson, for example - the Poet Laureate. How many people today would say they truly enjoy his poetry? Most find it tedious and overly ornamental. I like him though because I am quite interested in Victorian times, and I understand the whole backdrop to his writing. On the other hand, to enjoy Whitman you do not need to know anything much about America, as his truly adventurous attitude to language and poetic diction carries most of the weight! :-)

Serwus, Magdo!

Zupelnie zgadzam sie z Toba w tej sytuacji w zwiazku z "przestarzalymi" autorami, n.pr. Orzeszkowa itd.
It's quite true that certain writers age badly. I would add though, that in order to have the kind of language command that, say, you apparently have, in English, for instance, requires a depth of vocabulary at one's finger tips, so to speak, which can only be gleaned from going "beneath the tip of the iceberg", as it were, and ingesting older as well as more contemporary literature.

In brief, slang without standard, is like the flesh of a human body without a skeleton as its foundation!
Marek

Magda,
About Whitman, I'm not sure I agree here. Language is a product of culture. Culture is a product, i.e. bi-product, of its history. Therefore, listening to Whitman without understanding in general what was behind those beautiful words, is like enjoying an aesthetic experience in a vacuum. It is namely incomplete! Can we understand, e.g. Mickiewicz without understanding Polish history, regardless of how lovely/powerful the poetic diction may be?

Marek

But hey, we're not really talking vacuums here, are we? We have all received some sort of an education, so 'America' is not a totally empty concept. Having even the sketchiest idea about the US is OK when you want to read Whitman for pleasure.
I actually think it works this way - you start reading Whitman, it's fun but there are things you are not clear about, so you start looking for explanations, and that increases your awareness etc. As opposed to educating oneself beforehand about Whitman, his era, the life and times, and then filtering his poetry through all that cumbersome knowledge.
And you can easily substitute "language learning" for "reading Whitman", and "reading literature" for "increasing your awareness".

Magda,
True enough. Indeed, "vacuum" was just my word choice. I simply meant that appreciating the aesthetics of language/literature is limited if operating in isolation, i.e. blissful ignorance, of the context, historical or otherwise, within which the literature was conceived.
Take Mickiewicz. The opening lines of PAN TADEUSZ "Litwo, Ojczyno moja!..." may sound beautiful, but without knowing in advance that, in fact, the poet was actually a half-Lithuanian by birth, the listener as well as the reader misses the overall meaning of the lines, in the end, that which endows them with their beauty!

Marek

Was he half-Lithuanian though? I'm not that sure at all. I though he was Polish, possibly with a Jewish mother, and born and bred in the now legendary Kresy Wschodnie. Who was Lithuanian and who Polish there? Who could really tell? My grandfather couldn't, at any rate...
That aside, if someone cries passionately: "O Lithuania, my homeland!", it's pretty obvious what their ties with the invoked country are. Even if they are not Lithuanian by birth, they obviously feel as if they were. Do I have to study Mickiewicz beforehand to get that meaning?

I have never studied German very much myself but in Moscow a fellow student had studied to 'A' level (matura) and he said that German literature was very boring indeed. I can understand Marek's remarks about Germans insisting they speak English. They always want to be 'top dog'. Something simple to start off with in choosing a book with simple words but it is not worth saturating yourself with either language as both languages are dying on the world stage. Who learns Polish? Nobody. Watch M jak Milosc and half the words are English words anyway. Another hundred years and they will have taken so many words that they can not fit them in to Polish grammar structures. At the moment, sorry, ale jestem nativespeakerem!" The Polish mentality in this regard borders the idiotic. In England, I do not know the figures but at 'A' level for school leavers the number throughout London taking 'A' level German would be about 100 candidates-certainly no more. More so for Polish due to the community here not thanks to the state schools.

Me.

No language lasts for ever.
Not everyone buys the record that's no. 1 in the charts (or even in the top 100).

Should I learn Brazilian Portuguese at the same time?

I think that it would be more worth while. In fact, I would love to visit Brazil and yes I think it would certainly do you more use in the long run than Polish.

I'll probably never go to Brazil - too hot for me.

I do, however, meet quite a few Polish people.
I also go on holiday to Poland (occasionally) - not too hot.

Learning Portuguese will help me understand how unhappy bossa nova artists are!

Me too!

I think that Polish will be of great use to me in the long run!