Should Poland continue to support Bush's war on terror?

First whose denying that Iraq is a long way off, your just proving my point that we should stay there longer..... Also America had no hand in appointments unless your talking about the first temporary government...



Hey the Iranian revolution was possible, why not a new revolution to create a democracy...



Yes let the climate be maintained..... This is what's preventing Iran from moving ahead... They might not have wmds but its clear they want them... They were working on wmds till 2003. Hmmmmm 2003, isn't that around the same time when Iraq was invaded.... That's what probably made the Iranians think twice about pursuing the weapons.... No need to thank America.... We already know were doing the right thing.....

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2008/3511british_chaos.html

Not saying this is true.... Could be though.....

Just trying to show that these conspiracy theories affect the UK also as they do many countries.....

Matty, I meant changes through legislation and internal reform etc, they take time. The basic infrastructure (putting things in place) shouldn't have taken so long to install. Intentional procrastination. Also, some would argue that the first temporary govt is the most crucial in that it paves the way for future developments.

A new revolution to create democracy? I agree. Overthrowing can happen through the concerted will of the people, it just takes solidarity, look at Wałęsa for example. But u have to ask urself why this hasn't happened to date. It has been stated that the Iranian leader is weak and could be toppled with relative ease.

The point is, the American govt need not be so vocal. As u said, they throttled back in 2003 due to American pressure. So why threaten bombings now, where's the logic? Even the most amateurish scientist knows that Iran could have a weapon by 2012 at the earliest, performing clandestine tests, or maybe 2010 with expedited mechanisms in place. AIN'T gonna happen.

I have answered your article via private mail

I'm one of those that would argue that also.... But we don't manipulate them.... The new Iraqi government has been critical of US so it's clear they are not our puppets.... Also Iranian President just visited we might be displeased with this but the US understands that the Iraqi government has that right to make such decisions....



I disagree for the simple fact that there is rampent corruption.... Sabatoge attempts by terrorists, Iraqi squabbling on how to distribute funds and other factors that derail this process...



I would like to hear your opinion on this also... But my guess is fear.. though understandable... the US and the west should not have to pay for this.....



I disagree on this also.... I believe this is what is keeping Iran in check..... I feel once we stop that Iran will take advantage of the situation... Fear of US attack stopped Iran from pursuing wmds in 2003 and this fear is what's going to make sure they dont reactivate their program.....

my goodness all these 3000 word essays, has anybody managed to cut it down to about 200 words and explain 'yes' or 'no' why or why not Poland should support the war on terror ??

Already been explained....... read previous 2000 posts...

all i can see is argument, counter argument, argument, counter argument, i don't mean people replying to this point that point, i'm just looking for people who have summed it up and kept it clear and concise :) Not that anybody is incapable of this, it just seems that some people are more interested in either, attacking one another, or forcing a point on another individual instead of stating their answer to OP's question

Here are just a few of the Benefits of the relationship with US
1. Upgraded air defences
2. Moderization of the military
1 & 2 leads to greater Nato capabilities that would lead to increased politcal power in the organization.
3. Closer relationship with the only Superpower
4. Transfer of Intellectual knowledge & technology
5. The missle shield
6. economic benefits.
7. greater politcal power in EU.
8. To a small extent Both US and EU will compete for Polands loyalty.
9. Weakens Russia(very important) since Poland and Russia are in direct competition for influence in Eastern Europe.
10. Contrary to popular belief having relationship with US makes your country safer, at least when it comes to attack from other countries....
11. Improve Poland's role in international politics
12. FDI to Poland coming from US

Hope that helps Tornado

yes exactly what i'm looking for, if only people put it that straight forward instead of talking around the question asked :) thanks matty

your right.... it should be straight to the point and no B.S... and your welcome...

there's several more but they are more philosophical reasons than direct benefits.....

Well Matty, it depends how the threat is interpreted. If the threat is perceived as real and grave, then Bush is sounding the war drums. The way Iranians see it is that they are in conformance with the non-proliferation treaty and haven't actively developed their programs since 2003. Bush doesn't appear to be saying, and I have researched numerous sources, that we will attack u if u extend ur programs per se, more that we are going to attack u anyway for being 'antagonistic' and 'awkward'. This race b4 the end of the Presidency thing is at the root of the problem. To interpret it as other than a real threat, just a bark if u will, safe in the knowledge that no attack will be carried out forthwith, is hardly a deterrent and the Iranian leader will see it as a transparent plan to fire blanks.

On the issue of toppling the man, he may have a close entourage around him that keeps would-be assassins at bay. He has enjoyed a fair degree of political success and the power of the media may raise his profile. He has been towing a line of conformity since 2003 with regards to WMD's. He hasn't made any huge political blunders (well, maybe for being OTT about Israel) and he hasn't invaded anyone against their territorial jurisdiction yet.

The Iranian President went to Iraq, that's true. Why does that trouble you? Dialogue is the way forward.

America had the troops to secure the establishment of a new Parliament building and protect it. Bush just didn't have a clear vision of how to set up the apparatus in 2003. It wasn't set out clearly enough. Even Dick Cheney DIRECTLY referred to a power vacuum arising. Processes can always be undermined but America has the might. Ur rampant corruption idea doesn't wash/cut the mustard. Why not? Bcoz corruption is commonplace in most govt's worldwide and that doesn't affect the stability in the way u envisage.

Being critical isn't in and of itself a sign of being a puppet or not wanting to be. Ever heard of constructive criticism? What criticisms have they levelled precisely? Any valid ones?

Enough for one posting, I ain't Mr JohnP

It wasn't a empty threat... Until these stupid anti-war activists starting complaining and the politcal will to attack Iran died down.... It's these activists that are weakening our bargaining power..... they see themselves as patriots but they are the ones hurting the US...



It doesn't, I mentioned it to let you know that Iraq is a soverign country and makes it's own decisions and doesn't do what the US tells it to do...



I disagree because corruption is more rampant in Iraq and much easier to accomplish during war when theres a large degree of chaos in the country....



The one that comes straight to mind and the Iraqi government was right is the immunity blackwater and other organizations had in Iraq.... since then there immunity has been diminished... Several others but this is the main one...

These activists have an impact for sure but Bush is still the man that calls the shots, in theory anyway. They are just voicing their position, as democracy entitles them to do. They may have seen the power of lobbying from watching the Jews in NYC and tried their hand. Many patriots feel America shouldn't be in Iraq Matty. Let me ask u, do u feel that America wasn't patriotic between the end of Vietnam and the 2003 occupation of Iraq? Quite the opposite and there was no occupation during this time. Reagan did much in this regard and, although I'm not a major fan of his, this he did well.

'Is Iraq a sovereign country?

And the equally simple answer to that question is no, Iraq is essentially a vassal or client nation of the United States'. From http://chrisgelken.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-iraq-sovereign-state.html

I happen to disagree with some points here, Iraq is closer to sovereignty than he makes out but America must cut back on its 'garrison' style approach.

Corruption is a problem for sure but America knew this, had actually wanted it. They can still claim that stability hasn't been established and extend their stay indefinitely. I said that ur idea didn't wash because I felt that the nature of the corruption didn't directly interfere with the apparatus, more that it focussed on payments as u said I think.

As for blackwater immunity, "Once you give immunity, you can't take it away," said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation. From an article.

The problem here is that a dangerous precedent is laid down. U kill 17 innocent Iraqi civilians, why not 70, why not 400? Where do u draw the line? It's not murder perhaps, but manslaughter/homicide. I have written on the need to lower criminal standards in times of war but full immunity is just a joke. Maybe I didn't understand right

Or maybe I did, 'That seems to be a central tenet in the Bush administration — that no one from their team should be held accountable, if accountability can be avoided. That goes equally for misconduct and for incompetence," Leahy said in a statement. "They are the amnesty administration. Dodging accountability corrodes our values and our integrity, which have been real sources of America’s enduring strength."'

In theory, even though Bush might not have anything to lose since it's his last term... His party will pay the consequences... So his hands are tied without his parties support in Congress...



Good I appreciate that (when people are actually right)... However if they were smart they should look at the bigger picture and see this is making things worse than better as they think...



Yes of course.... I'm not some gun ho supporter.... I prefer peace, but I understand when war is necessary.... I wish we could deal with all conflicts peacefully however I am able to distinguish when peaceful resolution won't work(all depends on the enemy) but will just drag on for decades.... Unfortunately sometimes war will speed things up(I wish this was not the case but those are the cold hard facts)...



Article is little out of date and new recent developments have shown that the Iraqi government is becoming more sovereign.... The Iranian president visit and the removal of immunity for Blackwater... At time of article this has not still happened...

Also stupid arguements they use.... blog "You can't really have freedom when you have tens of thousands – or in the case of Iraq – 160,000 foreign troops that occupy your soil."

Just because we have our army there doesn't mean that we call all the shots... We might have the power by military force to make the Iraqi government to do what we want but doesn't mean we use that power, we respect their sovereignty...

blog "The inability of the Iraqi government to investigate, bring prosecutions or even order a halt to the operations of Blackwater USA"

This has changed recently, not to mention the Iraqi government first has to prove it's competance before we allow it to have such power....



I agree you can't prosecute for past mistakes.... but any future mistakes you can... It sucks but this was a big mistake that US has made (always had a problem with such immunity).. but it's been fixed....



Never supported immunity...... Anyways we didn't target civilians... we targeted the terrorists which hid among the civilians.... The terrorists are to blame for using human shields......



I agree... Hopefully one day they will be held accountable... However that doesn't mean that the war was the wrong decision... It should have been executed with much more accountability but that doesn't change that this war was necessary... We need to finish the job we started.....

Such cowardice indeed!! Peaceful resolution, isn't Iraq abiding by its treaty obligations?

OK, the Iranian leader has said bad things but people often say bad things without meaning them.

Matty, u r a total loser and deserve to be beaten up, there, did I mean that? NO

OK, he is a leader but the guy wants attention, he can play the victim very well.

Let's get away from immunity, please suggest a new topic as I really can't comment too much on what u wrote. It was fair enough and I have nothing to defend or reply to.

Might not have meant it but with religous extremitism so rampant in middle east some might not care if he meant it or not.... To them it will be a rallying call.



I don't know, did you??????



okey...... tell me what's the differance between those Israeli conspiracy articles you showed me from the British conspiracy article I sent you....

Actions speak much louder than words

No, I didn't

The difference is that one set is Israeli and the other is British

True...... But sometimes words come first and then come actions...



that's good to know, I feel much safer.... I couldn't have you flying out here to Chicago to find me....



I think that qualifies as a good explanation....

Words come first and then come actions, hehehe, this just sounds funny. Like, u diss us and then we ***** slap u, lol. Dunno why, it appealed to me!!

Flying out to Chicago to find u, nah, too much like a conspiracy theory there, lol

That's the only thing I've ever qualified for then, bah.

Good to have some light-hearted exchange on the forum.

'Cheney said that to topple the Hussein regime would be a "quagmire", with a power vacuum left without anyone we would be happy to see fill that vacancy. And further, that we would like see "part of Iraq fly off" it would be so destructive to remove the strong central government', again from an article, American chronicle

Don't sell yourself short, sheep make good sweaters.....



you can say that again.....



Agreed....... unfortunately it won't last for long.....

Yeah, am a bit of a sweater after a session with the missus, how did u know??? LOL

Bah, there, I did it

And the relevance of all of this to Poland and terror is, ding, none!!

Ever heard of the MKO? Poland could take up a fight against them

lol



I'm sorry I didn't catch that.....



true......



sure if the US wants to pay us.......

youtube.com/watch?v=uK_I19jyFNI, this explores the dubiety of the US approach, from CNN of all sources, I think I'd have a heart attack were it FOX news

"US banks must freeze their assets" is said here. Ever had ur assets frozen Matty? LOL

We should discuss allegiances in Iraq, that may be damning for the US tho. They have a War on Terror and support OFFICIAL terrorist groups on US, repeat, US lists. This is fertile area Matty, let's look at it, maybe tomorrow, gotta hit the sack now.

This could put ur defensive skills to the test, good night man

Can't say I had the pleasure......



So what, the US sees the bigger picture and realizes that we need them to contain Iran.... It's unfortunate but in an ideal world we wouldn't have too... But this isn't an ideal world..... We must make alliegiances with people that we shouldn't in order to win the war.... You must look at the bigger picture....

Have you every heard the saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend.... Clearly the US sees Iran as the bigger enemy and it's much more important to contain Iran than this group of terrorists... If Iran was not a threat, I can gaurantee you that the US would not be supporting these people... do you not agree??????

OK, so if Saudi Arabia sided with Iran against Israel then you'd be OK with that Matty? Or even sided against America, http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2007/january-2007/saudi _iran_24107

I get the bigger picture but Hamas and Hezbollah have a bigger picture too. Israel houses many terrorists, whether u like to admit it or not. Look below. The principle is the same, using terrorists to fulfil a grand objective. Lebanon does the same.

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/israel_terr.htm

http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/columns/read.html?col=620

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4721.htm

http://thelandofpure.blogspot.com/2008/02/israel-terrorist-state.html, etc etc

There is MUCH more of this.

Where do you get this..... I hate every middle east government except one, maybe two...



America's bigger picture is for peace in the middle east.... Hamas's and Hezbollah's bigger picture is the destruction of an entire race... Tell me which bigger picture you support?????

Hamas and Hezbollah are trying to get land back for their people. Peace in the Middle East, by threatening war with Iran? By heightening tensions between Israel and other countries? The Iran-Iraq war ended in 1988, no need to restore peace. America is in Iraq and the violence is still flaring up in Gaza. The Saudis radicals are still relatively untamed, these Wahabis. I'm sorry but u r ignoring terrorism in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, letting Al Qaeda hide and siding with terrorists in Iran and Iraq.

Do u understand the meaning of a War on Terror Matty?

Sure they can fight for their land but don't do it like a bunch of animals.... They want to be heros, then they should'nt fight like cowards......



Believe it or not, Iran getting wmds can me much more dangerous to the peace of the region that an attack by the US. Other countries already signaled in the middle east they want to start up their own nuclear programs because of shiite Iran. The sunnis in the region which are most of the middle east countries worry about this development. Last thing we need is an arms race in the middle east, with so many terrorists in the area.... See broaden your view and you can see the bigger picture...



What's so hard to understand.... I told you this at least 5 times already.... We can't go to war with all of middle east.... We don't have the resources and the man power.... Maybe if EU stopped being cowards then we can accomplish this(instead of secretly hoping we fail).....



what crawled up your as*........ I understand but maybe you should be asking yourself that question....

youtube.com/watch?v=aIElY7RtY4A, Israeli terrorism, this is brutal.

Hamas are not cowards, are they to be squashed and trodden on? They haven't done well politically for years so they resort to such tactics. How would u feel if u were misplaced from ur home and then sb arms the other side to maintain that status quo?

youtube.com/watch?v=k-lsiqGHypI&NR=1, it's appalling what they do. Would u like to see ur parents die in this way? Tell me u wouldn't get angry if they were murdered.

youtube.com/watch?v=MwoorLwTR28&feature=related, it's like they are trying to redress the Holocaust. Is it any surprise that Iranians are angry when u c such videos?

What are you attempting with this post ? Trying to draw more posts to this thread ?
You may want to start another, look at the last 20 or so posts.