Should Poland continue to support Bush's war on terror?

You would rather have Russia policing the world? The fact is it is necessary to interfere in some areas that require stablization.

Who else is best suited, China, Russia, India?

The your on the top everyone wants to take a shot at you, thats life but you have to be realistic and not blinded by hatred or bias.

I would much rather have a the US with all its faults cannot even compare to the brutality of other nations in this day and age.

OK, what other nation has caused the deaths of around a million civilians in the last 5 years ?

( yeah, yeah coalition etc but anyway...)

you know, you are very naive. Very

I remember my high school chemistry teacher commenting on the US as compared to other countries in terms of our govt, our judicial system, legislative system ect. and he said
"The US is not perfect. But it is better than what a lot of other countries have to offer. When you go out into the world, do your part to improve things and make it better than you found it."

It takes less energy to criticize than to come up with a good solution and put it to work.

If you don't like how things are, stop b!tching and work to improve them.

Honestly, I think perhaps you've hit the nail on the head better than even I could have.
Szkotja, relax. There's nothing wrong with you disliking Americans, but honestly, I could care less. It just seems to be a theme, the same few people finding this mistake or that horror that Americans may have done or are suspected of, and posting it everywhere possible.
Perhaps you don't hate Americans, but honestly I don't care anymore. Seanus was right.
John P.

And I most certainly don't hate Americans. I take PEOPLE as I find them, regardless of nationality. It was a nice idea but the War on Terror, despite setting out to be a war that spared no evil, showed itself to be one of selectivism. The chief perpetrators of terrorism were left to get their wicked way, whilst CIA created groups became targets.

It serves no purpose to go round in circles as the US administration did in late 2001. It is a war that is hard to assess quantifiably. If soldiers want to sign up of their own volition, without coercion, and die, then that's their choice. After all, America claims to champion democracy and freedom of choice.

May peace prevail!!

It is this quality that earns my respect for you. I know we seldom see eye to eye, but the ability to take things on a case by case basis rather than automatically assuming the most negative possible scenario, is something that gives one's arguments (IMHO) much more credibility.


John P.

Sorry but this is such a silly and obvious false dilemma. why do you think there ought to be one country doing this? are you american by any chance? if so then your line about bias is pretty ironic. if not then you've no excuse for such bias.

have a great day.

Outrage in Pakistan as US Attack Kills 20



URL

The indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians just seems to go on and on.

But it's ok because it's the good guys killing the bad guys.

That's right isn't it JohnP?

Don't put words in my mouth. I just pointed out you seem unable to post anything besides bad news.
If we were indiscriminately killing innocent civilians...you'd find more than an article here or there, I'd think. Of course, if YOU were there, everything would go swimmingly, and you could tell the difference between "civilians" carrying AK47's and "enemy" dressed the same way, carrying AK47's.

Also, thought it interesting that a mostly anti-US country (Pakistan) even though it is nominally an ally, has a report of "US troops" mowing down civilians. There are two sides to every story, and reports are that the helicopters began taking fire from multiple directions as soon as they landed; while there may have been women and children in the area (as in all villages) these were apparently not fired upon.
A little too convenient, and until I see something or hear something here, my bet is that it is a lie, and did not happen that way.
If the forces were regular army, it wouldn't be a secret, and if it were Special Operations, e.g. SEALS some of my friends would know about it. [A mistake so big as firing on civilians intentionally].
So far nothing. We'd love to be there in larger numbers, don't get me wrong, as there are suspicions of Bin Laden hiding there, and that Pakistan is doing too little about it, dancing the line between effectiveness at capturing OBL and public opinion which is pro-OBL.

But for you, I'll keep an open mind, given your completely fair, even approach that points out the good as well as the bad and makes no assumptions of guilt until all the facts are in...


John P.

It seems to of escaped your notice that this thread is about the phoney war on terror so there is no GOOD news to quote.






Ok from the first "profoundly regreted incident"

First the American military claim that they killed 30 "militants".....(that means they don't agree with American policy so I guess that means anybody who isn't American must be a "militant")......including an al-Qaeda (the base or toilet depending on who's translation you choose) commander. But soon after the Afghan Defense Ministry say that homes have been destroyed and that only civilians are dead, which America denies.

So they pull the bodies out, line up all 76 of them, count 50 children and 19 women who were attending a holy Koran recitation. No mention anywhere of any AK47s.



So the 20 who were killed must must have died in some other mysterious way then.

And what gives America or NATO the right to break international law and cross into Pakistan to carry out military attacks? I saw your president and Miss Rice hypocritically condemming Russia for crossing the border into Georgia and here they are a few weeks later doing exactly the same thing.

Bush didn't sanction a crossing of the border into Pakistan I think, hairball. He was firmly against this. Obama talked about doing this but Bush has remained resolute in his commitment to let the Pakistani forces do their job. I think he'd wait for consent to do so.

Thats is so not fair. If it was not for the ones that sign up for our military USA citizens would be screwed. Not many people are suicidal and the military would not take anyone that wants to die, we do have hospitals for them.



If Sept 11 did not show you how real terrorism is then you will never get it. I hate to break it to you although many have tried, there are people that hate and want to kill US and it does not matter if this is a baby or elderly. Maybe it's time you looked into hate for the USD in terriorist groups and what the trainning entails, then pray they never get you.

U got me wrong Celinski. I was merely stating that the choice is theirs as adults. The US army prides itself on this, that it's a volunteer army.

I agree that many citizens would be screwed, that was never in contention.

How's your standard of living? pretty good right? You're not starving are you? Not being tortured? Not being refused medical treatment due to any sanctions against your government? Not having any stray bombs find their way into your kitchen, AGAIN?

Care to make a wager on whether:

more americans have died, starved, suffered emotionally or were tortured at the hands of foreigners, due to the policies of foreign governments or foreign backed militaries, combined (that's the rest of the world) starting with anytime after ww2?

more people world wide have died, starved, suffered emotionally or were tortured at the hands of americans, american policies or american backed militaries all over the world starting anytime after ww2?

You may learn that after you do the math that there are many more people in the rest of the world (primarily 3rd world and developing world) who have this exact same view for reasons that make yours pale in comparison.

It's akin to your violin being drowned out by a world wide orchestra.

have a great day.

It is rather easy to blame USA, where are your numbers?




Then I am sorry, just the ones I know love life and did not want to sign up to die. :(

it was a question. do you want to bet or not?

the only point i was trying to illustrate with the question is that there just may be a whole lot more people in the rest of the world that have the exact same sentiments as you but see themselves as likely to be cannon fodder and they just might have even more reason to have those sentiments. comprende?

See, you've taken a challenge to your victim status as me blaming the u.s. for something. A country isn't a person and the sooner you make this distinction the sooner you can look at the world more objectively.

But when u volunteer to potentially lose ur life, the cause must be noble and just. This is not like 'Ride Across the River' by Dire Straits where Mark Knopfler sings of noble men, willing to pay with their lives if they must. It's an ill-defined war.

My point is, does the cause warrant such a sacrifice?

Our military does what they are told to do and many may not feel it was the right one.



We can do the same crossing the street.

As far as, "Ill defined" you would have to believe "Saddam" was not a danger to the nation and I include his own people. He was a sick person that killed or had others killed for fun. When we look at the amount of terrorist groups coming out of his woodwork in Iraq it seems they were right at home. I ask who should try to have standards and what must be done in order to stop dictators that don't have value's?



Seems we are blammed if we act and blammed if we don't. Where was the USA? Why didn't they help? You are taking all of history and placing it on the table vs. the why's and whom's? I do not see USA as the victim I see USA as a super power that should not ignor injustice in the world. Terrorist are everyone's problem not just ours.

Who are these ? Do you mean the same terrorists the US are paying to keep the peace just now ?

Al Quaeda ( if they exist at all ) were never in Iraq until after the invasion - go figure.

IMO they were there or were they all flown in. Road side bombing, area's full and waiting for more people to kill. What about the mass graves and horror stories from the citizens.

This is true pre and post invasion.

The point I was making ( and which you have sidestepped ) is that the US is now paying these terrorists.

Any moral argument is lost. Any justification for the war on moral grounds is bogus.


It seems to happen a lot on this thread that gung - ho statements are produced which have no bearing on the truth.

Iraq is paying them and they are learning to fight for their country by means other than what "Terrorist" stand for. Alot of Terrorist are kids that needed meaning in their life and got brain washed into thinking they could be a hero by killing (the more at one time the bigger the hero). It's not like Bin Ladden is being reformed. Or should we have just killed them all and been done with them? If you think this is hard for you can you imagine what it's like for our troops to have to put guns and trust in this. It was a gamble that they could arrest and go by laws of a fair trial like never seen by them before.

To clarify - in order to reduce the amount of coalition troops killed. The US are now paying the militias not to attack them and are giving them free reign in a designated area.
A two second Google search can come up with this - URL


That would be great if we could believe it and if you can quantify it ( I wish you could ).
But lets get back to the statement you made about terrorists coming out of the woodwork - could it be that US foreign policy is creating these terrorists..


As for the troops, the reason I bang on about this war is so that the next time our troops are called to war it will not be for a morally corrupt, financially unsound, illegal and completely bogus reasons.

This is fine with me our country has spent money in worse ways.



There's no one to blame but the ones killing simply because they are taught to do so in the name of God or making a name for themself.



This I understand yet I do not add the "troops" into that mess. They are doing what any military does, mostly what they are told. Without having this rule how do you control military with guns that pick and choose what they feel is acceptable.

Let me ask you this, if WMD was never brought up, just going on how the Iraq people were treated, would you want intervension?

The sacrifice is simply innocent human lives for the enrichment of gangster bankers, politicians and corporate interests...he 'War on Terror' is a war aginst us, based on a lie, for profit and control...Has no one learned from history, from the acts of the Communists and Nazis, both backed by the very same bankers who use us today?...as Nancy Reagan stated 'Just say NO!'

I guess it depends on who you ask?

Karwan Taufik barely survived the gas attack on his village which nearly blinded him. Now, he is one of the main witnesses in the Anfal trial. We accompany him back to the village where it all began.

"My charge is against everyone in Saddam's regime who participated in the genocide of the Kurdish people", he states. Karwan was chosen out of thousands of victims to testify because the effects of the gas attacks are still so obvious. He is almost totally blind. In court, Karwan describes what happened after his village of Shangse was bombed with chemical gas. "Whenever I am in Shangse, old wounds are re-opened". Now, despite the painful memories, he has returned. He shows us round a prison where his comrades were tortured to death and to the field where the bombs fell.

Put this into You tube as they don't let you put the link here.

Iraq Saddam Kurdistan Terror Anfal Blind Witness Gas



This one works,

So you are stating that it is OK for your country to fund terrorists - fair enough.

No, they are killing for the same reason as the US - personal gain.

Posted before - enter into trade and diplomacy - look at RUSSIA - they are trading oil and gas with Iraq and Iran.

I hope they also put on trial the guys that backed him in this campaign - yep thats right - the same guys that are paying the terrorists today.

Unfortunatly she will never acknowledge the fact it was Washington that propped up Saddam's regime!

They are not all "terrorists" I bet if you met some of them you would be suprized. They got caught up in this because they felt they could feed their families and were brain washed. From what I read they are doing a great job and I pray we are doing the right thing. I guess when we are out of there the long term peace will be the test but it won't be easy.
What have the USA gainned? Look at the cost not just in lives but $$$ rebuilding, not to mention my gas has never been this high in my life time.



LOL I try not to as I feel they are destroying themselves in the eyes of a nation. Time someone over there understood Putin is not all knowing. Look at Russia in 1989 vs. today Iraq and Iran are small patatoes and where are they when they run out. They have done nothing but take and treat everyone like crap and yet they will be the ones without once more. Don't worry Putin will run away and hide by then. Why do you think he's picking pipe line property, that right it's his love of Russian's. lol





Sorry I didn't see you come in, your right I won't. Lets face it I can give my son a baseball bat to play ball and if he hits a child with it should I be blammed for "propping" him up?