Should there be a war on terror and how/who should it be fought?

My head hurts !!!

Another quote....


Britain and America not only used DU in this year's Iraq war, they dramatically increased its use-from a minimum of 320 tons in the previous war to at minimum of 1500 tons in this one. And this time the use of DU wasn't limited to anti-tank weapons-as it had largely been in the previous Gulf war-but was extended to the guided missiles, large bunker busters and big 2000-pound bombs used in Iraq's cities. This means that Iraq's cities have been blanketed in lethal particles-any one of which can cause cancer or deform a child. In addition, the use of DU in huge bombs which throw the deadly particles higher and wider in huge plumes of smoke means that billions of deadly particles have been carried high into the air-again and again and again as the bombs rained down-ready to be swept worldwide by the winds.

Bummer all our military took off the other way.

Yes but now,today all thats rather beside the point. The dogs of war have already slipped their leash.No matter how morall the arguemnts are for why it shouldnt have happened they are now nothing more than a cozy intelectual exercise. I hear endless streams of "USA did this and bombed that and ooh,look at what they said to justifiy it" what I dont hear are any suggestions pertaining to the actual facts on the ground at this minute,those being that a near civil war is raging,albeit mostly underground ,and lunatics are running around murdering left right and center.
Can I hear please some relevent suggestions as to what should be done now,or tommorow? You know,Im sure Im going to get "pull the troops out/they shouldnt have gone in the first place" ....which sadly doesnt help anyone. Do people think that leaving an unstable country on the verge of sectarian violance that would make the Balkans look like a girlguides jamboree is the best option? Seriously? Is it not now the responsibility of those who tipped over the apple cart to now stick around and try and put the fruit that hasnt been bashed back in its rightfull place?
and ps, being an anti war civilian in a country without conscription is a luxury unknown to the people of many lands,the most "anti war" people I know are those who have actually seen war ,smelt death and faced it or taken a life.

er... my american girlfriend is a well know member of this forum... but whatever...

the rest of what you have written does nothing but confirm what i have said all along - you just dont get it john and whilst others on the forum may be happy banging their head against a wall trying to explain things to you i really cant be bothered.

continue with your support of this so called war on terror and i will continue to tell you you just dont get it, because you dont - you epitamise what people hate about america... but you just dont get it

"bLiar" has made "we British" just as guilty of these crimes against humanity.



We need to find a mediator who can be trusted by the people of Iraq and has nothing to do with the coalition of the willing. Someone who can bring the two sides of the Islamic religon together to start dialog. Possibly someone from The Red Cressent. And I'm sorry isthatu but OUR troops....(USA/UK/PL)....need to be withdrawn because they are seen as Christian Infidels. Maybe they could be replaced with a peace-keeping force from The Arab League of Nations? An equal reprisentation of ALL the ethnic groups needs to brought together for this dialog. How can we help? Maybe we can start by supplying the urgent medical attention that is required. But the biggest problem we face is the decontamination of the TOXIC waste that WE have created. Radioactivity persists for over 4,500,000,000 years and can cause cancer, leukemia, brain damage, kidney failure, and extreme birth defects and is sure to be killing millions of every age for centuries to come. This is a crime against humanity which may rank with the worst atrocities of all time.


*edit*
Before you ridacule my suggestion of bringing these people together.....

Jerry Adams/Dr Ian Pasley!





Do you have any better suggestions than this^?


The Royal Society has suggested the solution is massive decontamination in Iraq. That could only scratch the surface. For decontamination is hugely expensive and, though it may reduce the risks in some of the worst areas, it cannot fully remove them. For DU is too widespread on land and water. How do you clean up every nook and cranny of a city the size of Baghdad? How can they decontaminate a whole country in which microscopic particles, which cannot be detected with a normal geiger counter, are spread from border to border? And how can they clean up all the countries downwind of Iraq-and, indeed, the world?

I await your enlightenment.

Disagree. Lessons should be learnt.
Dialogue with Iran, other ME nations, the warring factions etc etc.

Back to thread title....
Some of the views here are exactly the reason that 9/11 happened and are exactly the reason why it will happen again and again.

oh how wonderfully clever you are,you can take part of a line from a dozen posts back and make a witty comment,oh how i envy you.

Yep,completly backing up my theories, What the hell has this got to do with the present day,now,whats happening right this minute on some divided street in baghdad or basra?All it is is a demonstrating of how clever you are and dumb the rest of the world must bepretty bloody useless in the whole anti war stakes.

Seems to me the person who closely fitted that bill was hung a while back.....trusted by the people...well maybe not,but the first person since TE lawrence to unite the local tribes.

I dont ridicule sensible suggestions,what I do ridicule however is so called anti war protesters who expand all their energy on conspiricy theories and "shocking revelations" that war is nasty and "good guys" get upto nasty stuff aswell. Anyone with any knowladge of history knows this has been going on for thousands of years.

By who? Do you think the Politicians and Generels didnt know all this a long time before you did?What lesson exactly do you propose to give these people? That,if you start another war "we" are going to get really miffed and have a jolly in trafalgar sqr and maybe hammer out our disgust on some internet forums?

Which no doubt are going on even as we speak,just because its not on the 6oclock news doesnt mean its not happening.

That if you support illegal wars you will be voted out.Gordon Brown has a different approach than his predecessor due to public pressure/outcry, hence withdrawal from Basra. Politicians know Iraq is a vote killer. Generals etc are at the behest of politicians.

I have posted before about the deals done with the Mhadi army et al.

No, but i've just read back through your posts and it looks like you've contadicted everybody on everything!

Have you never heard of devils advocate hairball?
But,i sugest I havnt done as you say,only contradicting those points i disagree with,but you are utilising another "protesters" tool,that of exageration to the point of silliness.
What always makes me laugh is the number of people with no doubt noble intentions always have plenty of acusations but very few solutions.
Reminds me of a time i debated with a Socialist Worker bod,All I asked was " say you do get in power,just what would you do?" ,I got a blank stare for an answer followed by some guff about giving power back "to the people","what people ?" i asked,"the majority who want to bring back capitol punishment?"..."er,no,not them people,er Ive got to ,er ,go now...."

We must all be wrong by your standards, please tell me in your view what should be done? It is fine to disaggree, now tell what actions you feel would be more suitable? That is without going into past, who did what.

Information sharing needs to take place on a bigger, more open scale. Countless times, the relevant files haven't been circulated to the relevant people and there is widespread denial. America is guilty of not having accepted info, despite the insistence of the other country. The issue of terrorism should be paramount on the agenda of the G8 conference. There should be more meetings held at the highest levels and Interpol should be seen to do the good job that it most likely does. When was the last time anyone heard of a major Interpol success story?

The beautiful part of being American is the freedom to question the goverment and have investigations opened into their actions. I "do not" believe Sept. 11 was an inside job. Freedom to oppose is your right .[

quote=Seanus] Information sharing needs to take place on a bigger, more open scale. [/quote]


This is so true.

I made my view quite clear in post 306




Then your in denial!



And that makes this a joke. There are millions of your fellow Americans SCREEMING and have been since 9/12 to have a real investigation into 9/11. That's a real investigation and not....and I'll quote a fireman here......"the half baked farce" that was the 9/11 commision report.

I can respect your right to seek your truth, I feel you do not respect mine. After all the investigations done at all locations not just WTC I have yet to see evidence that would make your truth a fact. I say give me your proof? I am open to try and see where your coming from.

Carol

How was lunch with George last night celinski? A lot of sweeteners in the coffee? Maybe some chemicals to distort the mind? I can't believe u have checked the scholars perspectives from the notes I sent u. Bear in mind that I sent u websites that contain views from Republicans who loyally served Republican administrations and agendas. They have nothing to gain from taking hacks at Bush's foreign policy. Bush could use a helping hand judging by the following, "We thought we were protected forever from trade policy or terrorist attacks because oceans protected us." Need more evidence of his discomfort, ok, try this, "This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating". It may come as a surprise that I was pro-America at one point but studying International Criminal Law certainly opened my mind.

I find this hard to believe.

As I said, some of the proudest Americans have spoken out against the current administration with good reason. OK, let me try and see it your way. Bush immediately condemned international terrorism after 9/11, good!! He promised to bring those perpetrators to justice, good!! He voluntarily offered to lend his assistance so as not to block the administration of justice, good!! Now, what he did. Pledged to smoke Bin Laden and his cronies out of their caves, fine, but lost interest rather conveniently. Oh, he stepped forward to testify in the 9/11 Committee alright. Was Cheney his translator or sth? His appointments have been suspect too. Kissinger, I mean, come on, that guy is about as impartial as a judge whose son has just been murdered. Ever heard of declinature? I can respect ur right to seek the truth. I'd just appreciate u offering ur analysis of a few of the ideas of the 9/11 scholars

I think the truth is too inconvenient for celinski!

I may not aggree with all the decisions made by Bush/Cheney ticket, I saw Sept 11 as a terrorist attack that worked. Part of America's problem was a thought process whereas we felt too safe.

Prior to Sept 11, no, the US did not have planes round the clock waiting for this. I see here the major argument being building 7. This was not built with the core such as the WTC, in fact it was hollow. If you present analysis you are referring to I can respond. Otherwise there are just to many issues to address.

Carol

Again that's simply NOT TRUE!

http://911research.com/wtc/background/wtc7.html

Read this article carefully. Building 7 had 58 perimeter and 25 core columns. So that's a total of 83!

While I read your, please read this.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I'm sorry celinski I've read your government document but unfortunatly the elementry level physics says that this theory...(which was in the 9/11 com report)... doesn't add up at all. They claim the fires reached temps of 1000c and this caused all 110 ten floors to fail SIMULTANEOUSLY. The fire was spread over 3 or 4 floors only. Most of the fuel burnt off OUTSIDE of the buildings and the smoke was black. This indicates it was oxygen starved and that means it wasn't as hot as they claim. There are plenty of pictures available of people standing in the holes left by the jets, so again I argue that the fires can't have been that hot.

The fact that it fell at FREEFALL speed is significant. Also, it has been shown (sorry, no link ready at hand and I'm not gonna pull it out of my, eh, hat) that buildings of a similar construction burned for hours before coming down. Even Mr Silverstein, that crook of an owner, said it needed to be "pulled down". Mysteriously, things were taken out in advance so that valuable assets were not lost. He wanted to profit from its destruction, what a creep!! He can take a hike back to the hole he came from, I hate greedy w**kers like him (no, not workers btw lol)

This is not true.



No building has ever taken this type of damage. When the plane hit it compramized the steel, exposing the metal and stripping the fire retardent material. We are talking about a structure with three floors in flames, when they came down the weight from floor to floor took out the structure. As horrifying as this is just think of the people inside and how fast their lives ended. How much was left of the building. Next time you are in the city look up at the tallest building, tell me there is a timed "similar construction." Next time you are at the airport look at the size of the plane and remember the fuel in located in the wings. This was and is a "terrorist attack" and Mr. Bin Laden is very proud of his work. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

What about the Empire State in 1945? A fully loaded B25 flew smack into the side of it......

That is very true in fact. Paperwork was swiped and put elsewhere. There were assets to the tune of 58 million dollars stored there. Celinski, PLEASE, what plane hit WTC 7? That's what I was referring to. As for the other buildings, please read the report from THE DESIGNERS of the buildings. De Franco/De Franci I think his name was but I'll check if I have to. Only demolitions could strip the building down to its foundations. Compromised the steel? People heard bombs go off everywhere, MULTIPLE accounts from inside and outside the building. Steel doesn't operate like dominoes do. Read the scientific perspectives from Judy Wood and the others on Scholars 9/11. An eminent architect also came to the same conclusions as them. Also, check the speed/altitude ratio of the planes, it didn't check out. Look at the BOEING discussions on Youtube. Read also about the ex-Mayor who referred to the PULVERISED state of the steel being highly implausible. One distinguished professor also referred to various pulverisation theories and how untenable the govt's position was on it. Need I elaborate? I'd be quite glad to do so

because of the overwhelming evidence suggesting otherwise

Or maybe Bush had the American economy and long term perspective in mind. He saw that MANY millions were spent investigating Clinton when he left his mark and left a stain on Lewinski's, eh, conscience. Oh, so a b*ow job costs this much he thought to himself. Better opt for a blow up job instead. Much cheaper and has a lasting effect