Should there be a war on terror and how/who should it be fought?

Ah, goody... Bubba. There is hope then :)
We shall overcome.

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there aren't really.

this is another bs argument.. show me that god doesn't exist.. there is no proof of him possesing them. read UNSCOM report.

yet? we've been there 5+y.. we won't find anything further. he did have some at one point as USA did sell that stuff to him. shrubco themselves stated that there are no WMDs in Irq.

1 or 2?
seems to me you are the one who doesn't get it.. what's legal about it? an unprovoked invasion of once sovereign nation is legal now? sieg heil!!!

Warning! long, tedious post to follow.
If I seem a bit harsh to some, consider the accusations I am trying to counter, which, IMHO are quite beyond simply "harsh".
In advance, no hard feelings.



Fair enough-but no more bs than the idea "no proof he has them" is somehow the same as "he doesn't have them". UNSCOM report....written when? So it proves...that there were no WMD's in the areas Saddam allowed them to look in. Yep, convinces me!....never mind that whole period the inspectors weren't even allowed in at all...


I'm sure you have the receipts to prove it, too? No? but you are using the same logic to say America was wrong-Saddam says he has something "special"...but somehow we are flawed if after we believe him we've still not been able to locate anything?

Saddam wasn't America's baby. He was a true gangster and was playing all the superpowers. Pretty sure his chem rounds were all Russian, and FWIW the fueled missiles near where I used to be in Iraq? We had to get Russian experts to come defuel them because the rockets were becoming unstable and US missiles are solid fueled-so we had no equipment to do the job... Saddam had toys from EVERYBODY.

...even the training we were getting prior to going over had us expecting Soviet style chem rounds-perhaps a vomiting agent mixed with nerve agent, that sort of thing.

If I shot you in the kneecaps-and said, hey, just kidding....would you still claim to be unprovoked? What if I told your children my dog was going to come eat them-would you be unprovoked for sending the dogcatcher? What if the neighbor pointed a gun at your wife, but when the police came and kicked in his door, they couldn't find a gun-would you or the police be in the wrong?

Just wondering.

How much kicking while one is down is a country supposed to accept? What part of "we're serious" is supposed to be ignored by powers being warned to cooperate "fully" by more than one nation?

And btw, I don't care how many innocent Chechens are killed in the streets of Iraq-what do they have to do with 99% of Iraqis? Been catching a lot of blonde, blue-eyed "insurgents" these days... If they want to come fight us, bring them on. Or we can just leave and let UK, Poland, Russia-deal with them alone. On their own soil...but I'm getting off topic. After all, it's only Israel, US and UK the fundamentalists want destroyed first-Russia is a friend (while they have money) ...

if you were able to prove to me-someone who has been there, mind you-that the charges were trumped up (all of them...) rather than constantly imply we are a nation of murderers-I might listen to you. If you simply state you disagree with the existence of the UN, fair enough, just say so, but if not-2003 is too soon after a disaster to be playing shell games with CBR weapons then yelling "Just kidding". Shooting at UN aircraft enforcing the no-fly-as agreed to by treaty-is also a provocation to war. Saddam got away with it for almost 15 years. His luck just ran out. Although it would seem you would prefer him still in power.

Fair enough, so you choose the "Guilty until proven innocent" routine, essentially the same logic you are accusing America of using against Saddam's Iraq...
...you have no proof that things are NOT legitimate, either-but you love proclaiming all the horrors you presume Americans are doing, and that (because the government hasn't said they've found something) somehow they invented the whole thing from the get go.

Friend, I really think your mind is made and NO amount of evidence to the contrary will change it-because obviously, we Americans to you are not quite on the same level of humanity as you are....perhaps we enjoy harming children? going to suggest that next? The things you post about us (without ANY proof, just open statements sometimes) bely that that is exactly how you feel about Americans. What happened? Why so quick to listen to the "Americans are evil" side but not to the possibility they are not? How is THAT open-minded? Because I don't bleat "four legs-good, two legs bad" with all the other conspiracy theorists and America haters out there I or anyone not agreeing with your "America bad" theory is somehow closed minded or "doesn't get it"? hmm.

I've pretty much stood my ground in areas I am knowledgeable about, but not when I am not, e.g. the suggestion above that America may have had something to do with Pol-Pot in Cambodia, I do not claim I do. I haven't heard of it, at any rate... I stand by my beliefs until better evidence comes around. So glad you can just second guess everything we do. Doing nothing always works-at least you are guaranteed never to make a mistake.

(emphasis added)
Why so defensive if you've nothing to hide? strike a chord? You are an American hater, right? no doubt you invented these "relatives" and "gf" to somehow support the insinuation you are unbiased towards Americans? No? But you can't prove it!
...
It's the same logic you are trying to use on me-and why I have a hard time seeing why you so easily fall under its spell.
Give me a break. Racists also always mention they have a "black friend" or "I dated a (Polish/Mexican/American/etc) girl.." maybe you really do have relatives in America-who in Europe does not; where do you think most of US came from? This means absolutely nothing. You can not tell me that you *really* feel these same warm feelings towards Americans yet so easily picture those same Americans committing atrocities on a daily basis or "inventing" reasons to go to war.

Enjoy your conspiracies while they last, probably by the time you realize that you *might* have been wrong, nobody will care anyway-

I'm sure you and your "American relatives" and your gf prove to you in your own mind that you don't hate Americans. They just don't have the same level of intellect as you, and cannot see that any time a super deadly weapon or weapons being assembled in secret locations should be EASILY found by 18 year old Marines trained in nothing of the sort. (Honestly I'm surprised we found Saddam, too, but he was waiting locally thinking he would rise again to power, and somebody told on him)
..and that if it is not, it is obviously a conspiracy the American government concocted while Bush jr. was in college and has been somehow planned all along. I long for the day Americans are blessed with this amazing logical ability! Obviously the American president can't tie his own shoes, but of COURSE he can fool the governments of nearly the entire PLANET.....
I give up. Am I the ONLY person who does not see this as a sure conviction? lighten up man. I can convince you of nothing; I can only take shots at your theories.

Cheers.
John P.

So, to take it to the basics:- I say you have something and I want you to prove to me you dont. Thats nuts.
Because you are trying to convince everyone that based on what you have seen you are convinced he had WMD and that justifies the war - it doesnt.
Its been well documented he had chemical weapons and used them in the past, the problem is we were told he had WMD that could be deployed in 45 mins - he didn't.

You have highlighted just about everything I have written apart from the half a million civilian deaths. Think of it, a City the size of Boston wiped out.

Finally, why is it that when all is lost in the debate, the last resort is always to call someone an "American Hater" ?

or how about..."You have something, you use it on your own people, then "agree" to destroy the remainder-but when asked for proof it's gone records do not match-and when told people need to verify, you do not let them in to search except with advance notice and only in areas you approve"
Which is closer to the truth.

...are you saying chemical weapons are not WMD's now? While I do not recall "WMD's deployable in 45 minutes" claim, I do believe he had them rapidly deployable. I do not need to tell everyone what I have or have not seen to convince them I am convinced Saddam did, in fact have WMD's and was looking for even better ones perhaps. I'm sure it's pretty obvious.

Who said all is lost in the debate? In BW's case, if the shoe fits-
If it quacks like a duck....
How else can one explain the ease with which he accepts all claims (proven or otherwise) that the war is somehow illegal but instantly disregards the possibility of the opposite? Or suggests US troops (that's me btw-so it's personal) murder civilians, children as a matter of policy? Stick up for your fellow Brit, but come on. The hate and venom practically DRIP from his every post-and as soon as I counter one boundless argument there is another equally unfounded accusation.

Perhaps BW has a whole family of loving Americans around him (Do you BW?) but that doesn't stop him from hating us as a whole, and honestly, it's the only reason I can see for not *considering* the idea that just MAYBE America did not "invent" the reasons for going into Iraq, but being so so ready to assign all kinds of guilt to us for horrible things?
I'm not even asking that anyone change their opinions, but to even open one's mind is all I ask. I've looked at source after source, and well, nope-still don't feel like murdering any children today.

Offhand statements that paint broad paths sting, and if they are not verifiable truth, then one has to be prepared to be labeled. Being called "America hater" is nothing like being told you participate in child murder or that because you've not been able to find the "smoking gun" that somehow that proves it was all a lie!(?)

I've already seen the insinuation that I or my brothers and sisters in arms are somehow Nazis, our government installed all of the most evil regimes (thank Goodness RUSSIA could save the world from us!) that we murder children, that innocent Iraqis mean nothing to us-that somehow even one civilian (whether he dies from an opposing faction or is too close to an IED or even dies of cancer...) it is somehow attributable to the U.S. ??? It is ridiculous.

Read through the posts. Pretend they were about YOU. I've not stated any such things about British, I've even left Stalin and Hitler alone-but BW can say it about Americans and it's supposed to be OK? where does it stop.

What is YOUR definition of an America hater? BW's a grown man and can take it, because he SURE knows how to dish it out...I have friends who've been shot at and were not able to return fire because the enemy was near other people-but BW or you or someone else can sit safe at home and attribute every death in Iraq to Americans somehow, insinuate that we don't care about civilians-"collateral damage" you say-never mind that the number keeps changing, because honestly, nobody knows. Most of those are to my knowledge made up, based on statistics from past wars and interviews.
Just as he can label me a baby killer supporting an illegal war,(where were you when THAT was being suggested?) bent on slaughtering children and women when I'm not busy torturing innocent Canadians on airplanes or whatever.....I can also read from his posts and decide that he hates Americans...
..Where I come from if you say "murder is because of black people" you are labeled a racist, and a hater. Is it different in the UK? Do I have the definition wrong here? Nothing personal, but I believe it to be a true observation. Otherwise, why the guilty until proven innocent charade going on here. It is exactly what America is being accused of doing, and apparently, evidence to the contrary-or even to *doubt* that the accusations are true-gets nazi innuendos.
Again, I'm listening? When BW or you (or....) surprise me with something not supercilious and contemptuous of Americans, but honest fact that is believable without assuming I work for the devil or some such, and I may start to change my opinions.

I'm done here for the moment, as I have seen no new arguments or even facts-just accusations about Americans, which I'm growing tired of countering. If you or anyone else here hates us-go ahead, it's your right. If anyone has new evidence proving any of these accusations-go for it, I'll read.
Night folks.
John P.

It seems to me that the only thing you took out of the question is "Poland" and not "Bush".

Does seem to have happened...seems these always end up that way though.
John P.

URL URL

This was the argument that "Blair" used that gave him his small majority to go to war.

WMD arguement...more smoke and mirrors.
Anyone who says Saddam did not posses WMD is plain nuts. A Scud missile with a chemical warhead is an WMD,granted,"only" a battlefield WMD but still bloomin MD!!!
The claims were indead made regarding the 45 min theory,more half truths,ie, it would take 45 mins to say ready a Scud for launch but,sorry,BUT,said Scud could barely reach Tel Aviv/Ryadh not the "London" or "Washington" as implied by bLiar.

Under this argument Depleted Uranium shells are WMD. They spread radio active material that contaminates the area. So therefore a WMD!



So true

I see this as really twisted. Saddam gassed and threatened and USA acted. You say it's wrong

Planes fly into the world trade center... USA wrong ... did not act.

I can recall the photo's on TV that showed Iraq playing cat and mouse game with UN inspectors. Truthfully I have to wonder if Saddam did not have WMD in his buildings or his MV running around his country, why would he push not just US but all of UN the way he was in light of 9/11. I guess even if he didn't have them he was sure as heck acting in a manner that left everyone looking over there sholder. Just think if the threats were ignored...we could be blammed for not doing anything out of greed over oil. Looks like USA lost there desire to play around.

Like these people were ignored?



URL

nope, I was referring to this group.

er,no.Depleted uranium is used to pentrate armour,ie a small area ,any residule effects are left in said small area while a missile war head designed to carry a payload of chemicals over a battlefeild/city is specificaly designed to cause widespread death and destruction,hence Wof MASS Destruction.
one final thing ,get yourself a giegercounter,most of the world is radioactive mate.

Bollox URL

Quote* 'Depleted' uranium is in many ways a misnomer. 'Depleted' sounds weak. The only weak thing about depleted uranium is its price. It is dirt cheap, toxic, waste from nuclear power plants and bomb production. However, uranium is one of earth's heaviest elements and DU packs a Tyson's punch, smashing through tanks, buildings and bunkers with equal ease, spontaneously catching fire as it does so, and burning people alive. 'Crispy critters' is what US servicemen call those unfortunate enough to be close. And, when John Pilger encountered children killed at a greater distance he wrote: "The children's skin had folded back, like parchment, revealing veins and burnt flesh that seeped blood, while the eyes, intact, stared straight ahead. I vomited." * un-quote


URL

And here's a quote from that one if people are too lasy to read it.

Quote *Depleted Uranium (DU) weaponry has been used against Iraq for the first time in the history of recent wars. The magnitude of the complications and damage related to the use of such radioactive and toxic weapons on the environment and the human population mostly results from the intended concealment, denial and misleading information released by the Pentagon about the quantities, characteristics and the area’s in Iraq, in which these weapons have been used. * Un-quote

I have no doubt he had some at some point, just not before the war and so not justifiable. Agree 100% with the rest of the post.

True but this does not account for the increase in birth defects and cancers post 1991. We will have to wait and see what effect the increased use in DU has this time round.
Remember WTC nothing to do with Iraq ( has this been said before ? )
Its wrong to have started a war that has killed half a million civilians and has created two million refugees.
Most know I am only a Brit by default but I digress.
You have access to the internet, what would you say is an accurate figure for civilian deaths caused by coalition activity?
I am not attributing every death to coalition activity, only the half a million civilians.
I have provided figures before for military deaths.

er,so arguing about one weopon used by an army....this is what pi sses me off about the anti war mob,always getting bogged down in the minuti,always talking a good conspiricy theory but never getting off there backsides to do anything about out,"you went on a march? Oh how brave of you,a nice day out with some pretty hippy girls and a chance to shout rude words at bored policemen,how uterly frikkin noble..."
War sucks big time,but man has always gone to war,always,its wired in,instead of looking for some background conspiricy just accept they happen,the many can never prevent the few from unleashing hell,but do somethinfg to help,go join the IRC or Doctors without borders ,put your money/body where your mouths are.

I am anti-war. I can get bogged down in the minuti, or I can take an overview.
Either way this war didnt need to happen.
Sorry, but I cant just accept that wars are spontanious.
Many do, thank God for that.

Depleted Uranium ISN'T a conspiracy.

Anybody with even half a brain cell who looks at all the available evidence are able to conclude that 9/11 was PLANED, INSTIGATED and EXICUTED by Bush and his cronnies. So it's not a conspiracy!

After WTC we have changed in USA. We will never be the same. Although I have been opposed to some actions made by Pres. Bush, I knew on Sept. 11,2001 that any President of the USA would have acted. Maybe it helps to say WTC had nothing to do with the actions, do you think we forget and other country's feel they are immune. I think our President made it clear....

There have been some crazy analogies going around here and I have tried to avoid them but.....If a planeload of Irish crashed into the WTC would you go and invade Germany ?

^is that even accurate? when did he gas the kurds
and when was the american response? when did he come to power? how did he come to power?



very good points, and the ones that apply to me bother me no end but i really can't think of how to really affect change, can you?

Anyhow i think what people are trying to do first is spread awareness about the other side of the arguement first. A massive attitude change is really needed to decrease the prosperity of war amongst the power players.

People do what they can but acting as individuals against the powers that set these things in motion just seems futile. But maybe that's just something i find convenient.

I honestly ask myself, what i could really do to affect change against armed conflict and other than boycotting american and british labels (and no company is sweating due to my personal boycott). I really feel as people we have to use leverage where we can but first we must amass enough minds together to find that leverage.

peace

Make no mistake the United States will hunt down and punish those responsable...

Spoken like a true Bush follower, a moral crusader!! R u aware that terrorism took place b4 9/11? Why didn't America help Japan more b4 the Sarin Attacks on the Tokyo Subway? Bush and Saddam, well, here's a couple. "I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein". "The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself."

Seanus, i think she actually gets off on writing stuff like that, like it empowers her somehow. why else would she so routinely avoid looking at the situation from any other perspective?
i don't mean to assume (waits for dumb joke) but it's such a wierd pattern that just seems to indicate that she's, well, how do i ahhhhh nevermind dude, you know what i mean.

Make that an American and you are right. Sorry if I don't see stopping someones food supply as getting our message across. We are criticized for acting or non action, you may be right we should have acted sooner. When we look at who is fighting with the USA, it is no suprize they are the ones (Britian & Poland)that also know the cost of freedom.

Yeah, I made reference to Japan b4 as I know from reading Japanese press that they wanted American help. Why didn't Bush help? He did say, "For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times." after all. I can only imagine the reaction of those present IN TOKYO who understood exactly what he said. A century and a half? Clearly Bush only looked at the pics of his history books, sorry, book!!

We'll be right there were kinda busy.

you guys want to know. then write a letter to the white house !!

we dont get inside his head and know every action/why...

the American people are just as angry at bush for whats going on.

Here's a hint mate. The're in The White House!



Here's another quote for isthatu

In 1996 and 1997 UN Human Rights Tribunals condemned DU weapons for illegally breaking the Geneva Convention and classed them as 'weapons of mass destruction' 'incompatible with international humanitarian and human rights law.' Since then, following leukemia in European peacekeeping troops in the Balkans and Afghanistan (where DU was also used), the EU has twice called for DU weapons to be banned.