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Babcia or Busha - any social class difference?


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HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 4, 12, 13:11    #271
MediaWatch:
Harry you do realize the name of this website? Its the Polishforums not the Polandforum.

OK, so what do you know about the Polish? Other, of course, from the fact that they eat golumpkies.
And what have you ever done to help the Polish?

MediaWatch:
Although Poland naturally is a large part of the conversation here for obvious reasons, the scope of this forum is about ALL things Polish including events and people outside the borders of Poland.

And back to the topic of this thread: 'Busia', it is not used by Polish people and is not found in Polish dictionaries. End of story.
pipThreads: 11
Posts: 1,293
Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 13:21    #272
Harry:
And back to the topic of this thread: 'Busia', it is not used by Polish people and is not found in Polish dictionaries. End of story.



and there you have it. time to move on.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Des Essientes  Jan 4, 12, 19:53    #273
Harry:
'Busia', it is not used by Polish people

Wrong it is used by some Polish-American people.
pip:
time to move on.

Then get off of the thread.
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 20:54    #274
10 pages on Busia- really? there must be something more interesting then that.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Des Essientes  Jan 4, 12, 20:58    #275
This is the most plausible explanation for the word:
boletus:
busia (grandma), [is] derived from [the] hypocoristic form of babusia (grandmother)

Harry:
Why is it that I'm not surprised that you have so little in your life to be proud of that you have to resort to taking pride in your great-grandmother's supposed ethnic group: she wasn't even from Poland!

You know nothing about my life, and your pretending that you do shows what a pompous fool you are, the fact that you are constantly on this forum trying to denigrate people reveals that it is you who is lacking things in your life to be proud of, hence this bizarre anti-social behavior on your part. All of my great-grandparents were from the occupied territory of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonweath and all of my great-grandmothers were Polish. If you want to keep trying to cast doubt upon the facts of my own heritage then keep trying, but you will only end up looking like more and more of a creep with some sick fetish for lying about people's ethnicity.
Harry:
The offer to pay for your plane ticket and train ticket and arrange both job and accommodation for you still stands. Are you noble enough to accept it?

I do not take jobs from craven little internet trolls such as yourself. Stop pretending you know anything about me or my family. Seek psychological help Harry. Your behavior on this forum is a cry for help even if you are not consciously aware of it.
pipThreads: 11
Posts: 1,293
Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 21:27    #276
you are american. not polish
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Des Essientes  Jan 4, 12, 21:38    #277
pip:
you are american. not polish

I am a Polish-American and you, Pip, are a sad purveyor of simplistic binary thinking.
porzeczkaThreads: -
Posts: 130
Joined: Jan 14, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 21:40    #278
pip:
and there you have it. time to move on.

Just to finally close this case ;) - a few more sources confirming that the word "busia" exists in Polish dialects:

1. Mieczysław Szymczak, "Nazwy stopni pokrewieństwa i powinowactwa rodzinnego w historii i dialektach je̜zyka polskiego" ("Names of degrees of kinship and affinity in history of Polish language and dialects").
Forma babcia dominuje w Małopolsce, na Mazowszu i w Wielkopolsce (w sumie 132 zapisy), forma babusia – w dialekcie kociewkim, tucholskim, krajniackim, chełmińskim i północnowielkopolskim (w sumie 26 zapisów). Ta ostatnia na wymienionym terenie stała się w wielu wypadkach form± neutraln±, w zwi±zku z czym funkcję hipokorystyczn± przejęła forma będ±ca jej pieszczotliwym skróceniem, mianowicie busia, zanotowana przez nas na wymienionym terenie w jedenastu miejscowo¶ciach.
Again, "busia" is a hypocoristic form.

2. Mieczysław Kara¶, Jerzy Reichan, "Słownik gwar polskich: opracowany przez Zaklad dialektologii polskiej Instytutu języka polskiego PAN w Krakowie." ("Dictionary of Polish Dialects..."),
Busia – matka ojca lub matki.

3. Kazimierz Nitsch, "Mały atlas gwar polskich" (Small atlas of Polish dialects)
na zachodnim ¦l±sku — babcia, w Wielkopolsce z Krajn± — babusia, busia, babcia i babka, w Borach Tucholskich — babusia, busia i babka, na Kaszubach — babusia, babu¶ka, babcia, babka i sporadycznie babula, babulka.

4. Honorata Skoczylas-Stawska. Biuletyn Polskiego Towarzystwa językoznawczego, "Z badań nad słownictwem pogranicza językowego wielkopolsko-¶l±sko-małopolskiego w województwie kaliskim." ("Research on language vocabulary in the borderlands of Silesia, Greater Poland, Little Poland, in Kalisz voivodship").
Babcia, babciuchna, babusia, babu¶ka, busia, babunia...

5. An interesting finding (from 1879!) Antoni Małecki, "Gramatyka historyczno-porównawcza języka polskiego".
327. 3. Kategoryi trzeciej okazy: busia,babusia, babcia, Marysia . Władzia , ciocia itp
It is possible that this word was more common in the past.

These three shouldn’t be overlooked:
6. "Słownik Gwary Mazurów Wieleńskich"
7. "Gwara babimojska".

Link to Boletus' source - 8. Hanna Makurat, " Kociewskie babu¶, bu¶ na tle leksyki kociewskiej" ("Kocievian babu¶, bu¶ in the context of Kocievian lexis."), page 18.

"Babusia" (just like "Mamusia") IS a standard Polish word.
PWN dictionary: http://www.sjp.pl/babusia
beta2  Jan 4, 12, 22:53    #279
The forms of "babcia" :
babcia -> babunia (a diminutive,common)
babcia ->babusia (a diminutive,in less common use but still existing in Poland today!) ->busia(the American-Polonia abbreviation and "busha" spelling )
just as
mama->mamunia (a diminutive,common)
mama->mamusia (a diminutive,common)
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,787
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 15, 12, 14:14    #280
Merged: Ironside's take on busha !

Because the original thread has been closed I'm going to express my opinion in this brand new thread.
Please do not contaminate this thread with trolling and ramblings, only informative posters are welcome.

Busha (busia) is a legitimate Polish word.There are two reasons for it not being widely used in Poland:
One - it is diminutive of diminutive and for Poles it is like going over the top with diminutiveness and tenderness.
Two - in the Polish language busha (busia) doesn't sound good. I mean that sounds like something a small child would say - kids talk!

On the other hand it sounds easy to pronounce for somebody from the English-speaking environment, hence its popularity.
I think that there is nothing wrong with that.
(Applause )
d
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 15, 12, 14:24    #281
Ironside:
Busha (busia) is a legitimate Polish word.


Yes, very legitimate - so legitimate that the PWN don't recognise it as such. Sorry, Ironside - but we, defenders of the Polish language, feel that the custodians of the language are far more of an authority than some Americans.

Ironside:
Two - in the Polish language busha (busia) doesn't sound good. I mean that sounds like something a small child would say - kids talk!


It doesn't sound good because it's not a Polish word.

Ironside:
On the other hand it sounds easy to pronounce for somebody from the English-speaking environment, hence its popularity.


Because "bab-cha" is so difficult, isn't it?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 15, 12, 14:25    #282
" Busha (busia) is a legitimate Polish word."
Really? Which page of the dictionary is it on?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 15, 12, 14:37    #283
Harry:
Really? Which page of the dictionary is it on?


You think people who use "Busia" know what a dictionary is?
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,835
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 15, 12, 14:38    #284
As far as I know, no current dictioanry of American Polonian speech exists, but if it did, it would certainly record the very widepsread term busia. It is encountered far more often amongst the descendants of the old (late-19th/early-20th-century) Polish immigrants than the Polish term babcia.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 15, 12, 14:45    #285
Polonius3:
As far as I know, no current dictioanry of American Polonian speech exists, but if it did, it would certainly record the very widepsread term busia. It is encountered far more often amongst the descendants of the old (late-19th/early-20th-century) Polish immigrants than the Polish term babcia.


What has Polish-American speech got to do with Ironside's point that it's a legitimate Polish word?

Busia is simply a word used by people who are too uneducated to use the correct word. Given that "Busia" was almost certain a peasant when she arrived, it does make sense.
rozumiemnicThreads: 4
Posts: 1,026
Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 15, 12, 15:08    #286
This thread reminds me of 'Groundhog day'
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 15, 12, 15:10    #287
rozumiemnic:
This thread reminds me of 'Groundhog day'


Pretty much.

One thing is certain : it was never a word uttered by the elite of Polish society.
rozumiemnicThreads: 4
Posts: 1,026
Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: rozumiemnic  Jan 15, 12, 15:13    #288
delphiandomine:
One thing is certain : it was never a word uttered by the elite of Polish society.

look, who cares? 'Nanny', in reference to grandmother, is not a word uttered by the elite of British society. Who gives one? People can call their relatives what the hell they like.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,835
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 15, 12, 15:27    #289
It is a legitimate Polish-American term just as legitimate as the speech of the Afros or other groups.
FlaglessPoleThreads: 7
Posts: 1,394
Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂ 		 Jan 15, 12, 16:06    #290
delphiandomine:
Busia is simply a word used by people who are too uneducated to use the correct word. Given that "Busia" was almost certain a peasant when she arrived, it does make sense.


Busia is a diminutive/short of Babusia, nothing to do with peasantry. Why are you such a retard about all this..? I dare say your Polish is too crap to understand that words in Polish can be morphed and played with in ways unprecedented in Germanic languages.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 15, 12, 16:26    #291
rozumiemnic:
look, who cares? 'Nanny', in reference to grandmother, is not a word uttered by the elite of British society. Who gives one? People can call their relatives what the hell they like.


Unlike in English, Polish is defined by a single authority - and any arguments about "legitimacy" should be referred to them. Anyway, it's a word of peasant origin.

Polonius3:
It is a legitimate Polish-American term just as legitimate as the speech of the Afros or other groups.


Perhaps so, but don't try and claim that it's a Polish word.

FlaglessPole:
Busia is a diminutive/short of Babusia, nothing to do with peasantry.


It isn't according to the PWN.

FlaglessPole:
I dare say your Polish is too crap to understand that words in Polish can be morphed and played with in ways unprecedented in Germanic languages.


No, I just accept that the PWN is a far more definitive source on Polish than some dumb internet rednecks.

(Busia, as has been proven countless times on here, has never existed in Polish as a whole)
FlaglessPoleThreads: 7
Posts: 1,394
Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: FlaglessPole  Jan 15, 12, 16:39    #292
delphiandomine:
No, I just accept that the PWN is a far more definitive source on Polish than some dumb internet rednecks.

Accept all you want but while you are at it you may as well accept the fact that language is not a static monolith but an ever-evolving, flowing entity. Knowing Polish failry well, I instinctively deducted its Babusia origin, but that obviously comes with a certain level of proficiency which you evidently do not posses. Heh why don't you come over to some Danish forum armed with Nudansk Ordbog and start telling Danes how they should speak Danish, it would be just as ridiculous as what you are doing here in this thread.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,787
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 15, 12, 21:47    #293
delphiandomine:
Yes, very legitimate - so legitimate that the PWN don't recognise it as such.

It is legitimate because its derived in accordance with inner logic of the Polish language - but of course you know nothing about that.
delphiandomine:
Sorry, Ironside - but we, defenders of the Polish language,

Sorry delphiandomine- are taking the **** here ? :D
delphiandomine:
feel that the custodians of the language are far more of an authority than some Americans.

So called custodians can only describe what is the official correct language, apart from that there is a living language out there.
delphiandomine:
No, I just accept that the PWN is a far more definitive source on Polish than some dumb internet rednecks.

Look who cares what you accept or not, your Polish is too crappy to make you an expert on it. Who are you to be telling people what is and what isn't Polish ? You are only the internet upstart,a wannabe authority on all things Polish, phew!
celestyna  Jan 29, 12, 21:05    #294
Growing up in Chicago I called my grandmother Busha/Busia.
When I visited Jaslo, where she originated and my cousins still
live, they never heard the name! They use Babcia... so I agree
it is regional.
(I have to laugh at the answer"The language is complicated enough
without adding any more embellishments".) :-)
starratlarry  Feb 12, 12, 05:11    #295
In the 1950's in Hyde Park Chicago, my father called his mother what sounded like BUSHA. I don't speak Polish but he did with his siblings and mother. If so many people say that they used the word BUSHA, what is the problem? This word is not genocide.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 12, 12, 05:20    #296
Don't think it's a social class difference, most likely those families who use it have some roots to former Eastern Poland or the times of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.
I remember my dad's grandmother on my grandmothers side be called Busia (and her husband Bu¶) while I called my grandmother Babcia.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 12, 12, 12:16    #297
starratlarry:
In the 1950's in Hyde Park Chicago, my father called his mother what sounded like BUSHA. I don't speak Polish but he did with his siblings and mother. If so many people say that they used the word BUSHA, what is the problem? This word is not genocide.


The word is genocide against the Polish language.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,835
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 12, 12, 12:38    #298
Any linguistic genocide is being committed not by remote overseas Polonians but by Polish advertisers with their 'dwa w jednym', 'od Wedla' and myriad other non-Polish intrusions. They corrupt the language from within all the more effectively due to frequent repitition which distorts the public's lingusitic sensitivity.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 12, 12, 15:10    #299
Polonius3:
They corrupt the language from within all the more effectively due to frequent repitition which distorts the public's lingusitic sensitivity.

It's a living language. If people overseas use a vestige of that language with archaic and slightly amusing forms like 'busia', then that is their choice and right, however mainstream Polish is the language that is spoken in Poland regardless of how it may change over the years, absorb influences from other languages, respond to technological and commercial advances in mass communication or otherwise develop.

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