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Babcia or Busha - any social class difference?


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JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Jan 3, 12, 16:40    #241
boletus:
Go to the OP and read carefully the first 10 lines.

Better still go to the OP and read it all. Carefully or otherwise. Those were direct quotes. Stop lying. And stop trying to frantically backpedal now you've been caught out. And stop wasting your time trying to 'prove' something that isn't there.
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 988
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		 Jan 3, 12, 16:47    #242
Harry:
Not used in Poland and not mentioned in any Polish sources.

Nevertheless it's legitimate and that's the point of the whole discussion.

Harry:
Poles would use Baba or Babcia (or perhaps Babka).

Baba is something else entirely. Using it for babcia would be extremely rude unless coming from a toddler who's just learning to speak.

JonnyM:
Really?boletus: busiaboletus: /busiaboletus: busia

Would you care to look at the contexts in which it was used?
boletusThreads: 47
Posts: 1,096
Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 3, 12, 16:51    #243
JonnyM:
Better still go to the OP and read it all. Carefully or otherwise. Those were direct quotes. Stop lying. And stop trying to frantically backpedal now you've been caught out. And stop wasting your time trying to 'prove' something that isn't there.

You called me a liar. All I see is that your logic is pitifully screwed here. But go on..
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 3, 12, 16:51    #244
boletus:
Go to the OP and read carefully the first 10 lines. All examples given there referred to "babusia", including dictionaries, dialects and literary examples. But no, Harry saw "busia" instead in his mind.

Really? What about the very first line of your post, the title? "Babu¶ and bu¶ as male derivative words from babusia and busia"?

Face up to the facts: you gave it a good try but you couldn't manage to prove that Busia is a Polish word. And why could you not do that? Because 'Busia' is no more a Polish word than 'golumpkies' is, in fact it is even less of a Polish word than 'golumpkies'!
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 3, 12, 16:52    #245
I just did, and it's clear he (and you) are being disingenuous and hoping nobody will notice.
cyga  Jan 3, 12, 17:09    #246
The word Busia as a form of Babcia is not unique to US or Canadian Polonia, it can be found in Polish dialect used around Stare and Nowe Kromsko, for years heavily influenced by German language where archaic forms of Polish survived. Those who argue that it’s some kind of eastern dialect are idiots, educated idiots perhaps but idiots none the less. This region of Poland was under Prussian partition and well isolated from the influence of eastern Slavic languages. Perhaps one can make an argument that this word came to Americas with the working class immigrants from that region but Ukraine? Who are they kidding? The peasant under Czar was tied to the land and the Emancipation Reform did not take place till late 1800’s. One does not have to be a linguist to see that this theory is wrong.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 3, 12, 18:03    #247
cyga:
dialect used around Stare and Nowe Kromsko

Round a couple of villages. Not exactly widespread or for that matter mainstream Polish.
cyga:
German

cyga:
Prussian
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 3, 12, 18:07    #248
One thing that doesn't make sense here -

The word somehow entered Polish-American speech via the Kashubian language or a tiny local dialect - how? It's just not plausible -

Interesting that it's an acceptable word in Kashubian - boletus has excellently proven that the word is either not Polish, or it's "as spoken by children". The latter is actually plausible - the uneducated peasants that emigrated to America wouldn't have spoken the language of the educated classes - and thus might not have featured in Polish dictionaries - because - who the hell was going to go to Kresy to talk to some peasants?

boletus:
But then the "anti-busia" propaganda trio here somehow tried to single out "babusia/busia" as a Ukrainian word and run with it through many threads.


No, not quite. The existence of babusia is undeniable (heard it here myself) - but "busia" certainly doesn't seem to exist. Is there actually one book in existence that uses the word in Poland?

Very interesting stuff though - it actually goes a long way to prove that the word cannot be educated Polish origin.
cyga  Jan 3, 12, 18:19    #249
JonnyM:
Not exactly widespread or for that matter mainstream Polish.

Not even close to Ukrainian either but it does give credence to the OP’s argument it's some kind of a short form of babusia. That’s the beauty of isolation while the mainstream language evolves an archaic form can be preserved in isolated pocket. Burden of proof is clearly on you to disprove OP theory. If you can somehow tie it to the German language more power to you but Ukrainian peasant dialect is as outrages as making a connection with Kenya, after all there’s a village in Kenya by that very same name.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 3, 12, 18:22    #250
cyga:
Not even close to Ukrainian

Did I say it was?
cyga:
Burden of proof is clearly on you to disprove OP theory.

No, Boleta. Any burden is on the OP to prove it is a word in standard (or indeed any variant of) Polish.
cyga:
Ukrainian peasant dialect is as outrages as making a connection with Kenya, after all there’s a village in Kenya by that very same name.

Really. You surprise me.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 3, 12, 18:28    #251
cyga:
it does give credence to the OP’s argument it's some kind of a short form of babusia.

A line of reasoning which is backed up by how many Polish sources? Oh yes, precisely the same number as the number of results from this link: http://sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/busia

cyga:
Burden of proof is clearly on you to disprove OP theory.

Nope, the OP has got the theory, he needs to prove it.
cyga  Jan 3, 12, 18:44    #252
Harry:
Oh yes, precisely the same number as the number of results from this link:

Oh please, neither can you find w±borek there, none the less it exist in the dialect I have sited:
//sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/w%C4%85borek
Harry:
Nope, the OP has got the theory, he needs to prove it.

His theory makes a lot more sense than your cockamamie story of Ukrainian peasantry.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 3, 12, 18:54    #253
cyga:
Oh please, neither can you find w±borek there, none the less it exist in the dialect I have sited:

How lucky we are that two entirely unrelated experts on Polish dialects have both decided to grace us with their views on how the word "Busia" is not restricted to only 'Polish'-Americans!

Thank you for telling us about the word "w±borek". I wonder why it exists in the standard Polish dictionary even though it is only from a dialect of Polish. Could the answer be that the dictionary lists words which are from regional dialects of Polish? That would certainly explain why it does not list a word which is only used by people who talk about golumpkies.
f stopThreads: 33
Posts: 2,861
Joined: Dec 9, 09  Pictures: 1 ♀ 		 Jan 3, 12, 19:24    #254
I have never heard of Busia or Busha, and I was born and raised in Poland with two grandmothers - one in Warsaw (with some Ukrainian ties) and one in southern Poland. I also spent some time among Polish people in Chicago and Connecticut, never heard it there either, so I'm perplexed as to where does it come from as well.
boletusThreads: 47
Posts: 1,096
Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 3, 12, 19:28    #255
delphiandomine:
The word somehow entered Polish-American speech via the Kashubian language or a tiny local dialect - how? It's just not plausible

I did not say that this was an actual route, just a possibility. But once you find one possible way, many others can be easily found. Just google "busia", in some intelligent way, and you will find many good examples.
Here are just few:

"cyga" mentioned Kramsko. I followed the tip:
Babimojszczyzna/ Ziemia Lubuska
http://www.babimojszczyzna.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl e&id=63&Itemid=88
The dialect appears in Nowe Kramsko, Stare Kramsko, Wielkie Podmokla and Małe Podmokla.
Geographical and historical conditions have contributed to the isolation of the villages from other Polish lands and to the preservation of many archaisms. As a result of continuous contact with the people of Germany new words were also created, not found in other Polish regions.
busia - babcia

Nowe Kramsko, Stare Kramsko - Ziemia Lubuska
http://www.kramsko.pl.tl/Kramska-gwara.htm
busia - babcia

http://www.muzeumkrajny.pl/content.php?cms_id=1193&sid=79c98d72baf1939 db5f57f618bdae9dc&kat=6&dzial=
(Krajna is situated in Northern Great Poland, north of Noteć River, between Gwda River on the West and Brda River on the East)
(All three rivers are good for kayaking. Gwda used to be a very clean river)
Muzeum Krajny - Mały słownik gwary Krajeńskiej
busia - babcia

http://www.drawsko.freehost.pl/ok/30maja/Sandra/slownik.html
Wieleń Masurians - an ethnographic group of Polish people living in Noteć Forest, settled on the left bank of Noteć near Wieleń and Krzyż, as well as on the right bank of the Warta River near Wronki.
Tradition has it that their ancestors were brought from Masovia by Prince Piotr Sapieha in 1750s, to settle on the forest areas that had been ravaged by the cholera plague.

Included in this dictionary, are the words, expressions, phrases still in use by the older people from around Drawsko, Pęckowa and Piłki.
(Drawa and Stara Drawa Rivers are excellent kayaking areas)
Słownik gwary Mazurów Wieleńskich
busia - babcia

And I am almost sure we could find many more examples, from some other areas of and near Great Poland. This covers quite a big area.

Now think about immigration patterns. Poor Galicia was one big source. But all the western and northern Poland was another. It was the Prussian policy to clean up many of those areas of indigenous Polish Population.

"In 1858, 76 Poles, (16 families) landed here by the Heinrich from Bremen. They had been told by a passage agent for the Bremen shipping interest, that they would receive 100 acres of land on going to Canada, free of any expense or pay. They sold their little cottages and few acres, and landed here paupers. They had not as much as the value of a loaf of bread in money amongst them. They said the agent at home had deceived them, in telling them the cost of removal from Prussian Poland to Quebec was a great deal less than they afterwards found out."

http://www.ottawa.polemb.net/index.php?document=152
 
And to make things clear: I never claimed anything about "busia" being a literary world. All my recent posts were about dialects. Otherwise, delph, thanks for your quite sensible and reasonable comment. I wish your buddies learned how to be civil.
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 988
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		 Jan 3, 12, 20:07    #256
Harry:
How lucky we are that two entirely unrelated experts on Polish dialects have both decided to grace us with their views on how the word "Busia" is not restricted to only 'Polish'-Americans!

And how lucky we are that two leading experts on the Polish language in all its varieties, who together could not produce a correct Polish sentence, deem it proper to enlighten us on the subject of the Polish morphology and expose a lie when they see it.

Seriously, people, don't you think it's a bit over the top?
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 4, 12, 05:51    #257
What makes you think that neither Harry nor I can ''produce a correct sentence in Polish''?

In my case I speak it every day and write in Polish at least as often as in English. At least as often and as much as Boletus and his alter ego.

And on all that time I've only ever come across the word 'busia' on this website.
Ozi DanThreads: 22
Posts: 552
Joined: Nov 22, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 4, 12, 06:05    #258
JonnyM:
What makes you think that neither Harry nor I can ''produce a correct sentence in Polish''?


Well, for one thing, Harry professes to not speak the Polish language.

As to whether or not Busia is inherently Polish per se, I cannot be certain. My dad however has never heard of it and still has fluent command of the Polish language. Who cares anyway? Is there anything serious at stake here for you and your friends to argue so forcefully against a concept that a nebulous word that appears to be a contraction of something else cannot be Polish?
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Jan 4, 12, 06:13    #259
@Dessie

When have I ever commented on the Ukrainian language? I speak Polish, not Ukrainian, which I understand only partially. I have heard this spurious 'busia' word in neither language. You don't speak any Polish at all, so stop trolling and flaming in this thread.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Moderator  Jan 4, 12, 10:05    #260
strzyga:
Seriously, people, don't you think it's a bit over the top?

It certainly is. We have some poor sod in Canada trawling through website after website after website trying desperately to find something, anything which gives some vague support for his claim that Busia is a Polish word. The rest of us just look in the dictionary, see it isn't there, maybe ask other people in Poland "You ever heard the word 'Busia' being used?" (the only positive replies I've had were both variations on the theme of 'Yeah, those morons in the US who think they're somehow Polish are idiotic enough to think that's what Polish grandmothers are called', their words, not mine) and then go about our day.

Ozi Dan:
In my humble opinion, the term 'alter ego', in the context to which it was placed by your quoted poster, is misconceived, and the correct word ought to have been 'nom de plume',

Your humble opinion is wrong: Boletus is already the nom de plume of the poster in question. Given that Jon's view is that Bolenta etc appear to exist to give Bolentus distinct alternative identities (for example where cyga agrees with Bolentus), the term 'non de plume' would be entirely incorrect. However, if the poster in question was using a different username so as to protect him from harm which may result from his posts, then 'non de plume' would be correct. Surely you do not wish to imply that Bolentus would deliberately do anything which he knows to be contrary to forum rules and thus which might expose to harm as a result of his posts, do you?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Moderator  Jan 4, 12, 12:11    #261
Des Essientes:
Boletus explanation for the term busia is almost certainly the correct one. Busia is the hypocoristic abbreviation of the term babusia.

Which is why he has been able to produce so many sources which confirm his theory. Oh, sorry, he hasn't been able to produce even a single such source.

Des Essientes:
It doesn't matter if busia isn't used widely in today's Poland,

Not only is it not used widely, it isn't used at all.

Des Essientes:
it doesn't appear in today's Polish dictionaries.

It doesn't appear in today's Polish dictionaries or in past Polish dictionaries: because it is not a Polish word.

Des Essientes:
It is still derived from a Polish word

Yet again you make the claim and yet again you can't support it. Oh well, perhaps you will be able to one day.

Des Essientes:
it became a word amongst Polish immigrants in America

So have words like 'pierogies' and 'golupmkies' and other words guaranteed to give Poles a damn good laugh.

Des Essientes:
As the proud descendant of such immigrants

Why is it that I'm not surprised that you have so little in your life to be proud of that you have to resort to taking pride in your great-grandmother's supposed ethnic group: she wasn't even from Poland!

Des Essientes:
the Polish people are noble

Some of them are, some of them aren't. Just like all peoples really. Although with that said, I have never ever met even a single Polish-American who has been noble enough to come to Poland and work for the good of Poland. Perhaps you would like to be the first? The offer to pay for your plane ticket and train ticket and arrange both job and accommodation for you still stands. Are you noble enough to accept it?
pipThreads: 11
Posts: 1,293
Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 12:13    #262
http://easteuropeanfood.about.com/od/ah/g/busia.htm

click the link- it explains everything. It is not a Polish word. It is an Americanized Polish word. End of story.
rozumiemnicThreads: 4
Posts: 1,026
Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 12:15    #263
pip:
It is an Americanized Polish word. End of story.

well done PIP!!!!
Now can we close this thread/subject? *yawns*
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 4, 12, 12:15    #264
boletus:
Babimojszczyzna/ Ziemia Lubuska

Interesting that you selectively believe this source. You believe it when it says that Busia is used in the region but you don't believe the part which says "Na skutek ci±głych kontaktów z ludno¶ci± niemieck± powstały też słowa nowe,
niespotykane w innych rejonach Polski." (i.e. these words are not found in other Polish regions).
pipThreads: 11
Posts: 1,293
Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♀ 		 Jan 4, 12, 12:24    #265
http://polishmamaontheprairie.blogspot.com/2010/12/polish-grandmother- babcia-busia-buzia.html

here is another one that explains it quite well. Can we bury this now
hythornThreads: 6
Posts: 843
Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 4, 12, 12:46    #266
MediaWatch:
But even if some Polish Americans did use that word or another version of "babcia", what's the big deal?


As a Brit I wholeheartedly agree with you

what is the big deal?

what is next? a lengthly and meaningless debate about the spelling of color/colour
or perhaps a discussion on the correct pronunciation of the word tomato?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Moderator  Jan 4, 12, 12:47    #267
pip:
here is another one that explains it quite well.

Pip! That page will make certain people choke on their golumpkies!
Busia (pronounced "Boo-sha") is probably a shortened version of Babusia (pronounced bah-BOO-shah with the "si" being a "sh" sound), which may be a variation of Babuska (pronounced bah-BOO-shkah). Babuska is Russian for Grandmother.
...
Again, Busia is short for Babusia, which is Russian.
...
So, to recap.
To say "Grandmother" in Polish, you say "Babcia" (pronounced bahp-cha, with the "ci" pronounced like the "ch" in "chicken")
If you are not completely familiar with the exact way to use "Babunia", or "Babciu", it is better to just say "Babcia"
The "ci" sound in Polish is always like the "ch" in "chicken"
Other ways of saying "Grandmother" either mean a rude word, something in another language like Russian, Jewish, Ukrainian, or other.

From the same author is even worse http://polishmamaontheprairie.blogspot.com/2010/11/thanksgiving-and-re membering-our-past.html
Also, I wanted to explain why it's called "Busia's" Sauerkraut. Modern day Poles call their Grandmothers "Babcia", however, as my husband's family is Polish by a couple of generations, prior to The Great War, in the Ukraine, Grandmothers were called "Babusia", shortened to "Busia", and sometimes twisted by accent and time to "Buzia" (which actually means "mouth" but I am just glad that they try and are close)...
czarThreads: 4
Posts: 248
Joined: Mar 3, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: czar  Jan 4, 12, 12:54    #268
what is the phonetic sound of babcia?

harry calls out someones grandmother and then ask for mods to help him in the same post

unpleasant indeed
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 4, 12, 12:56    #269
czar:
what is the phonetic sound of babcia?

Nothing like that of Busia.

czar:
how can harry call out someones grandmother and then ask for mods to help him in the same post

Do feel free to quote me 'calling out' another poster's grandmother. Either that or withdraw your lie and apologise for it.
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,306
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 4, 12, 13:01    #270
Harry:
You can expect us to know far more about Poland than you and your ten closest 'Polish'-American friends combined and you can expect us to have done at least one hundred times more for Poland that you and such ten persons combined.


Harry you do realize the name of this website? Its the Polishforums not the Polandforum.

Although Poland naturally is a large part of the conversation here for obvious reasons, the scope of this forum is about ALL things Polish including events and people outside the borders of Poland. At least that's the impression I get when I look at all the topics on this forum. The topics aren't about just things inside the borders of Poland. No?


Also, you do know where this website originates from.....right??

:D

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