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Big decline of Catholic religion in Poland


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jwojcieThreads: 3
Posts: 816
Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: jwojcie  Oct 13, 10, 11:59    #301
Seanus:
How do you feel when you leave mass on a Sunday morning? Is it more out of a sense of duty or is there a deeper significance?


Well, I mostly do not attend. I have to say though that unfortunately there are mostly two scenarios when I do attend.
One, I'm to often bored beyond comprehension..

Second, the worst like my last endeavor in spring in Wroclaw cathedral when I said to myself that I will never again go to that church because of disgusting homily of supposedly big fish among hierarchy. Basically it was abominable manipulation aiming at people from district close to mine. There is a big church over there, there is a quarter of buildings and there is a green terrain. Some enterprising prists wants to build another church exactly on this green terrain, people from there obviously are against it. What that mean for our hierarchy? Inhabitants of that district are obviously evil communists fighting with The Holy Church. I'm not able to give here exact long homily here, but it was filth manipulation but clever at the same time, I bet many people didn't see that through but their hearts where poisoned.

It is small things like that wich undermines Catholic church in Poland. The problem with this institution is that after 89' they forgot where is their place in this country. There is a kind of myth about catholicism in Poland when it is compared with Italy or Spain where the church was forged for a long time with Rulers. True is that because of partitions and communism except of short periods in last centuries Church in Poland was never in power of Ruling this country. They vere important and influential to some degree for sure but most of the time as an applicant. Somehow they think that now they can do what they want and mess with politics on every level. It is biting them more and more but they don't seem to understand it.

Well, I suppose I'm not a catholic anymore...
On the brighter side there are rare examples of wise priests still. Personally I like to read books by this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Heller
TeffleThreads: 28
Posts: 2,105
Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 12:06    #302
guesswho:
Because few people here made it to their mission to bash Catholicism. It's funny how the same people fight for tolerance and acceptance for gays.


Pro tolerance & therefore bashing an intolerant institution?

I don't see the conflict or irony here myself. In fact it makes perfect sense.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 12:12    #303
Teffle:
Pro tolerance & therefore bashing an intolerant institution?

Pro tolerant, and doesn't tolerate an religious institution. Do you see it now? :)
TeffleThreads: 28
Posts: 2,105
Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 12:25    #304
Mr Grunwald:
Pro tolerant, and doesn't tolerate an religious institution. Do you see it now? :)


But if the institution is intolerant - which it is - I don't see the problem. Tolerance doesn't necessarily mean the intolerant should be tolerated. To me it means an ongoing lobby to encourage tolerance generally - occasionaly battles must be fought ; )

Would you for example respect freedom of expression - if by expressing, your own freedoms were curtailed?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Seanus  Oct 13, 10, 12:47    #305
As convex said, many people are out shopping rather than in church on Sundays. Also, could a Polish Catholic here please explain Mass in their words!? Why is this aspect declining?

Oh, and thanks jwojcie for your long answer on the topic :) :)
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,389
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 12:52    #306
Seanus:
As convex said, many people are out shopping rather than in church on Sundays


From what I understand, there may be a ban coming into force for sunday shopping.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 12:54    #307
It wouldn't surprise me. They will try and spark a resurgence in churchgoing. Poland is big on flyers for various things and the RCC is no different. It should be seen as a new project in itself, trying to encourage the 35% or so of those that don't practise to come back and renew their faith.
A JThreads: 19
Posts: 4,639
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 14:48    #308
Seanus:
It should be seen as a new project in itself, trying to encourage the 35% or so of those that don't practise to come back and renew their faith.


More like 60%. Oh, and plastic Catholics have no faith, they only attend mass because their neighbours do so. Monkey see, monkey do.

:)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 14:50    #309
Well, I can't verify that but I suspect it. I've said it enough times why.
A JThreads: 19
Posts: 4,639
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 14:59    #310
Seanus:
Well, I can't verify that but I suspect it. I've said it enough times why.


Well, I think 35% gives them way too much credit, so that's probably why I felt like being a parrot.

;)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 15:33    #311
We need to define practising Catholic. A Catholic is basically one who follows the dogma of the RCC. You can believe in their teachings without going to church. They don't get excommunicated simply for not going to church every Sunday. Communions are still very much followed to give children a grounding.
zetigrekThreads: 59
Posts: 2,709
Joined: May 20, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 15:37    #312
Seanus:
Seanus

Is your wife practising Catholic? What faith will you bring up your children if any?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 15:42    #313
No, she is not Catholic at all, Zeti. I can say no more on the issue as I am dealing with private things. As for me, I will raise our child to be bilingual and to respect morality which reasonable, thinking people adhere to. I will not give it a name but will make the child aware of moral precepts and not hide them from Catholic or Protestant enunciations. They will be steered according to their will but will be raised with love.
guesswhoThreads: 23
Posts: 3,326
Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀ 		 Oct 13, 10, 16:01    #314
Teffle:
In fact it makes perfect sense


To you and few others here. I believe that either someone is "really" open minded and tolerant and then of course the person accepts all other beliefs, opinions and lifestyles (even when personally not sharing it) or the person doesn't claim to be tolerant.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 19:06    #315
Voltaire really made the best statement in this area, guesswho. I cannot agree with him more.
guesswhoThreads: 23
Posts: 3,326
Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀ 		 Oct 13, 10, 19:28    #316
When you say a half truth, it's still a lie and so being half tolerant is not being really tolerant, Seanus.
George8600Threads: 20
Posts: 1,114
Joined: Feb 19, 09 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 20:57    #317
Seanus:
However, the thread title is relevant as faith has dwindled here in recent times.


has it? or just your faith which affects your perspective...
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 20:58    #318
George8600:
has it? or just your faith which affects your perspective...

Depends on how you want to tally up the score. If it's attendance, there is a big decline. If it's in the percentage of people identifying themselves as Catholics, then there's a decline.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Pictures: 1  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Torq  Oct 13, 10, 21:03    #319
Big decline of Catholic religion in Poland

This "decline" was discussed in the 10th century (shortly after the Baptism of Poland), and in
the 15th century (when the subject was brought to attention of Europe by our Teutonic friends
and neighbours, who claimed that it declined to the point of paganism, so they attacked us :))
It is, as we can see, still discussed in the 21st century and will be discussed in the future when
all the keyboard warriors, terrible simpletons and kindergarten philosophers in this thread will
cease to exist (even in the collective cyber-memory :))

convex:
If it's in the percentage of people identifying themselves as Catholics, then there's a decline.


Not everything is about numbers, you see. The decline in number of practising Catholics
doesn't necessarily mean the decline of Catholic religion. As history taught us, Catholicism
survived countless heresies and divisions (starting from the times of St. Athanasius to the
protestant "reformation") when the number of Catholics substantially decreased, but the
religion itself survived and was actually strengthened by the struggle.
George8600Threads: 20
Posts: 1,114
Joined: Feb 19, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: George8600  Oct 13, 10, 21:06    #320
A J:
More like 60%. Oh, and plastic Catholics have no faith, they only attend mass because their neighbours do so. Monkey see, monkey do.

The atheist rate isn't 60% in Poland...it's barely that high in Sweden. Also if plastic Catholics had no faith then they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Maybe you mean to say that their not Catholics by doctrine, or they don't have spiritualism or follow/understand the morals/philosophies or religion and good in general. People who attend out of fear, or an after-life insurance policy. But I really don't see why someone would go to church if they didn't believe in God; I'd lose all respect for a person of such.


Seanus:
As convex said, many people are out shopping rather than in church on Sundays.


Materialistic Capitalism...another poison of the world. Tell those shoppers that the majority of their goods are probably being produced by third world countries in sweatshops by people who have little to know rights. Preventable poverty is killing more than anything else ever has.'


convex:
If it's attendance, there is a big decline. If it's in the percentage of people identifying themselves as Catholics, then there's a decline.


There really isn't a significant decline in the second. I can understand the first as Poland becomes a more commercialized country with many more things to do on Sundays which is many people's only day off. Sort of like here in America.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: convex  Oct 13, 10, 21:10    #321
Torq:
who claimed that it declined to the point of paganism,

you were a bunch of pagans :)

George8600:
The atheist rate isn't 60% in Poland...it's barely that high in Sweden.

It's not the rate of none belief, it's the percentage of people that aren't practicing Catholics.

George8600:
Materialistic Capitalism...another poison of the world. Tell those shoppers that the majority of their goods are probably being produced by third world countries in sweatshops by people who have little to know rights. Preventable poverty is killing more than anything else ever has.

What's your point? It's obviously pointing to a decline in people following Catholic dogma...unless breaking one of the 10 commandments is your idea of the action of a good Catholic.

George8600:
There really isn't a significant decline in the second.

Actually, there is.
George8600Threads: 20
Posts: 1,114
Joined: Feb 19, 09 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 21:14    #322
convex:
you were a bunch of pagans :)



The whole of this argument has already been done with in pagan days. Ever heard of Epicurus? He was the Richard Dawkins of Ancient Greece...possibly even better.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 13, 10, 21:15    #323
No, old liberal philosophers were the ones I read and liked the most. The old notions of lying within the boundaries of tolerance often appealed to me. However, we have new-age liberalism now which is all about being PC. We have geopolitics which are shifting the goalposts in a very sinister way. My statements should not be seen as an attack but merely as eye openers that help paint a different picture. Tolerance is fine to teach but I would issue a caveat. Soundbites like Obama gives are not enough. You have to show tolerance as best you can.
bimber94Threads: 9
Posts: 400
Joined: Mar 13, 09 ♂ 		 Oct 15, 10, 18:15    #324
Most Catholics don't really know what they believe in. Ask any of them: 'name one of the five beatitudes'. They'll look at you open-mouthed!

Seanus
many people are out shopping rather than in church on Sundays.

Free at last!!
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 15, 10, 18:21    #325
I'm glad I'm not a Catholic, then, as I have no clue either ;)

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