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Formula One and medieval relics - how do they fit together?


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AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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Edited by: AdamKadmon  Feb 13, 11, 15:09    #1
Polish Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz has passed on 1st degree relics of John Paul II (to be canonized on May 1st) to injured Formula One racer Robert Kubica, who is recovering in a hospital following serious injuries in a rally crash.

Dziwisz said a piece of the late Polish pope's robe and a drop of his blood, both contained in a medallion, would be given to the Krakow-born driver.

Kubica has a photo of the pope by his bedside and keeps the pope's name on his racing helmet.


My question is: if we can combine modern technology and medieval customs, would you agree that more tolerance for supporters of Khomeini, who once said: We are not afraid of your science and your technology. We are afraid of your ideas and your customs... Our customs are none of your business. would be a better idea than confrontation? Why to be outraged at "the medieval rag"?

Polonius3Threads: 1,005
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 Feb 13, 11, 15:39    #2
Self-styled ‘progressives’ are trying to perpetuate the stereotype that Catholicism is only for the uneducated or elderly. Kubica has long held JPII in great esteem and, unlike some of today's 'oh so trendy', agnostic modernists, was never ashamed to admit it. After the Holy Father's death he has venerated the late Polish Pontiff's memory. He had JPII’s name on his crash helmet when his formula 1 vehicle smashed into smithereens in Montreal in 2008, whilst Kubica walked away with nary a scratch. By openly admitting his devotion to the late Pope he is following his teaching to evangelise by example everywhere. Not just clerics but shoe repairers, physics professors, taxi drivers and celebrities should bear witness to Christ if they regard themselves as Christians. In fact celebrities have greater clout when they do than the corner butcher or factory worker.
convexThreads: 46
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 Feb 13, 11, 15:46    #3
Polonius3:
In fact celebrities have greater clout when they do than the corner butcher or factory worker.

That's kind of obvious considering the attention that the church is showing Kubica while at the same time taking money from the poor for last rites. But I guess the 18-35 demographic is just as important to the marketers at the church, as it is to the people making TV shows.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
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 Feb 13, 11, 16:03    #4
Polish priests accept 'co łaska' (whatever you wish to offer) for their sacramental services. Only a slimeball priest would turn someone away because he couldn't afford the fee.
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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 Feb 13, 11, 16:22    #5
What about this Muslim undertone present in my question. Should the Muslim people be treated more like Catholics are, i.e. with more tolerance for their medieval-like ways?
StuThreads: 27
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 Feb 13, 11, 16:37    #6
I don't think Muslims in general have "medieval-like ways". Orthodox or fundamentalist Muslims, maybe. As do orthodox or fundamentalist Christians. I live in the Bible belt of the Netherlands: some of these fundamantalist aren't even allowed to have radios or television in their homes, cause they are a "devlish invention". Now tell me who are "medieval" :-S?!
jonniThreads: 26
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 Feb 13, 11, 16:55    #7
Stu:
I don't think Muslims in general have "medieval-like ways". Orthodox or fundamentalist Muslims, maybe. As do orthodox or fundamentalist Christians.

Even then onl;y a small proportion are god-botherers, an even smaller percentage are fanatics (who if they weren't religious would be fanatics for something else). Most are just god-fearing or luke warm about it and some are simply irreligious.
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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Edited by: AdamKadmon  Feb 13, 11, 17:06    #8
Stu:
some of these fundamentalists aren't even allowed to have radios or television in their homes


How can you say that they are not allowed to? On the other hand, I can tell you that I know some Catholics who have not watched TV for years - they listen only to Radio Maryja.

And to remind you, even Ayatollah Khomeini said: We are not afraid of your science and your technology. So there are as many Muslim TV stations as any other ones. Why then to be outraged at their customs, which are much the same as medieval as Christian ones?
jonniThreads: 26
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Edited by: jonni  Feb 13, 11, 17:13    #9
AdamKadmon:
How can you say that they are not allowed to?

Plain People (Conservative Mennonites, Bruderbond etc) usually aren't. But some break the rules.
AdamKadmon:
there are as many Muslim TV stations as any other ones

They don't show the most popular soap operas or sports events around prayer time - the mosques would be empty.

In the very strictest Muslim countries (Saudi is the one I know best) a lot of the people are 2 generations from the Iron Age. Most still have relatives who are nomads. It's rather unfair to expect them to become paragons of democratic virtue and urban sophisticates overnight.
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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 Feb 13, 11, 17:18    #10
jonni:
They don't show the most popular soap operas or sports events around prayer time


The same in Telewizja Trwam. So what?
jonniThreads: 26
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 Feb 13, 11, 17:21    #11
I don't remember TRWAM showing soaps or football.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Feb 13, 11, 17:39    #12
Polish Roman Catholicism and Iranian Shia Islam actually have lot of parallels such as the veneration of relics and saints. It seems that both people's upon having adopted Semitic religions found a way to reconcile them with their Indo-European religious sensibilities. Etymologists do posit an Iranian origin for the word Bogu.
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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Edited by: AdamKadmon  Feb 13, 11, 17:48    #13
jonni:
It's rather unfair to expect them to become paragons of democratic virtue and urban sophisticates overnight


Nobody expects from Nomadic people of Saudi Arabia to become paragons of democratic virtue and urban sophisticates overnight. I have Europe in mind. Why to expell students from schools for wearing the scarf in class? Shouldn't they be allowed to wear what they like?

Recently David Cameron refering to Islamists said: We need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and a much more active, muscular liberalism.

If the "muscular liberalism" do not avoid double standards in treating people of different religions, they will not only manage to liberate people from "segregated communities", but will open the gates to more segregation - maybe this is the hidden aim.
NomadatNetThreads: 6
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 Feb 13, 11, 18:09    #14
Stu:
some of these fundamentalists aren't even allowed to have radios or television in their homes


Amishes in USA. They don't use some technology.
Throughout the history, there have always been people who don't use newer technologies. I am not against any new technology. They can make even more powerful weapons than nukes. It is their tax money they are spending.
jonniThreads: 26
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 Feb 13, 11, 18:17    #15
AdamKadmon:
Why to expell students from schools for wearing the scarf in class? Shouldn't they be allowed to wear what they like?

Fear of the other. Nothing else.
AdamKadmon:
but will open the gates to more segregation - maybe this is the hidden aim.

Some people say this.
smurfThreads: 46
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 Feb 13, 11, 18:29    #16
AdamKadmon:
Shouldn't they be allowed to wear what they like?

No, you'd have schools full of kids in miniskirts and chalked with lipstick and the lads would all be wearing baseball hats and ill-fitting jeans,

I didn't know Kubica was religious......I dont like him now

AdamKadmon:
maybe this is the hidden aim

Naw, there's something else going on here, MErkel said it first in Germany, then Cameron and now whathisface in France..Scarkozy, or however you spell it.

I reckon there's some EU reason for these comments, it may have something to do with Turkey trying to get into EU or some of the others trying to gain admission.

I do agree with them though, multi-culturalism hasn't worked and I'm interested to see what those three countries are going to do in the future regarding it.
jonniThreads: 26
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Edited by: jonni  Feb 13, 11, 18:46    #17
NomadatNet:
Amishes in USA. They don't use some technology.

Amish and groups similar to them are way too complicated to generalise about, but yes, they tend to reject technology for technology's sake. A group of people I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for.

There's an Amish-type group (they don't use that name and there are various differences) just outside Warsaw. They moved there fron the US in the 1990s. Also a traditional Polish group (again not Amish, but with some slight similarities to them), very closed and secretive, there since the 1920s, elsewhere in Mazowsze. I won't say where, because they loathe being talked about. Plus the Old Believer communities in Podlasie.

Just up the road from where I'm staying right now, near Pontefract, there's a Tolstoyan Anarchist community who've been going since the 19th century. Totally disengaged from the state, living a pre-industrial life. They don't mind visitors, though.

Some of these groups just shrug off the modern world, go it alone, no taxes, no welfare. All power to them. Some of the most sorted people on the planet.
saschaThreads: 13
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:10    #18
jonni:
Amish

Had my best ever dinner and breakfast there when visiting a friend in US and stopped by to sleep over at one of their b&b in Pennsylvania.
Btw, their bandwaggons beside the roads look quite strange/silly, but if they are satisfied...and their believes are not aggressive at all.
NomadatNetThreads: 6
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:15    #19
Is it true they don't use plastic items?
saschaThreads: 13
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:18    #20
NomadatNet:
Is it true they don't use plastic items?

Yes. Homemade or possible to recycle.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:21    #21
NomadatNet:
Is it true they don't use plastic items?

They don't even allow buttons on their clothing. But I feel this thread has gone off on a tangent. The Amish are radical German Protestants. They do not believe in relics and there is really nothing medieval about them.
jonniThreads: 26
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Edited by: jonni  Feb 13, 11, 19:22    #22
NomadatNet:
Is it true they don't use plastic items?

Some do some don't. Some don't even use buttons, hospitals, headlights, alcohol; others use computers, phones, microwaves, mariajuana.

It's hard to generalise about them - there are so many different groups, each with differing rules. One thing that is certain is that in the US their number has increased tenfold since the last war (big families) and worldwide (some groups do missionary work) they are increasing too. Check out Bruderbond - not Amish, but interesting.

Medieval? Well, the philosophical roots of such groups predate Anabaptism and some scholars trace the idea base back to the medieval period. Certainly their approach to society as a whole has more in common with 'medieval values' than the age of enlightenment.

Be careful not to confuse thoughtful rejection of the negative aspects of the modern world with conservatism - which is just really paranoid primitivism and medieval in the worst sense of the word
saschaThreads: 13
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:25    #23
Des Essientes:
The Amish are radical German Protestants. They do not believe in relics and there is really nothing medieval about them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

I had a nice time there.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:31    #24
I lived near many Amish as a boy and i remember feeling sorry that they had to affix flourescent orange triangles to the rear of their buggies because the bright color clashed with their dour "retro" look.
jonniThreads: 26
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Edited by: jonni  Feb 13, 11, 19:35    #25
Des Essientes:
I lived near many Amish as a boy and i remember feeling sorry that they had to affix flourescent orange triangles to the rear of their buggies because the bright color clashed with their dour "retro" look.

Some refuse. Needless to say they have a lot of accidents. But most are pragmatic about it, and some groups permit cars, provided they aren't used for unnecessary journeys. The ones near Warsaw are like that. Fortunately given the roads round where they live.
StuThreads: 27
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Edited by: Stu  Feb 13, 11, 19:42    #26
AdamKadmon:
How can you say that they are not allowed to?


Cause, believe it or not, I've been talking to some of my neighbours ... well, not on Sunday, cause then they won't even greet you.
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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Edited by: AdamKadmon  Feb 13, 11, 19:50    #27
Stu:
Cause I've been talking to some of my neighbours ... well, not on Sunday, cause then they won't even greet you.


I have prepared an abstract from the British PM's last speach:

I would argue an important reason so many young Muslims are drawn to terrorism comes down to a question of identity. [...] Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and apart from the mainstream. We’ve failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong. We’ve even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely counter to our values.

Instead of encouraging people to live apart, we need a clear sense of shared national identity that is open to everyone. [...] We must build stronger societies and stronger identities at home. Frankly, we need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and a much more active, muscular liberalism. A passively tolerant society says to its citizens, as long as you obey the law we will just leave you alone. It stands neutral between different values. But I believe a genuinely liberal country does much more; it believes in certain values and actively promotes them. Freedom of speech, freedom of worship, democracy, the rule of law, equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality.

There are practical things that we can do as well. That includes making sure that immigrants speak the language of their new home and ensuring that people are educated in the elements of a common culture and curriculum. It will also help build stronger pride in local identity, so people feel free to say, ‘Yes, I am a Muslim, I am a Hindu, I am Christian, but I am also a Londonder or a Berliner too’. It’s that identity, that feeling of belonging in our countries, that I believe is the key to achieving true cohesion.


It seems that he is not only talking about strengthening national identities, but being more forceful in it; however, liberally forceful. Maybe even will throw some radicals overboard. But who are those radicals? As yet unnamed Islamists, Amieshes (rather not)? Who is openly against democracy, freedoms, rule of law and equality? Everyone is saying that is for these sacred things.
NomadatNetThreads: 6
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 Feb 13, 11, 19:56    #28
sascha:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish


I read it shortly and noticed that they don't use the electricity either. Jacob Ammann, founder of this group, late in 17th c and early in 18th c., the period when there was extensive research on electricity. Tried to find his occupation, but, nothing is written there.

About their not use of plastic. I wonder if they are letting doctors use serum hoses in their hospitals.
jonniThreads: 26
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 Feb 13, 11, 20:00    #29
NomadatNet:
plastic.

Some use it every day. A minority don't.
NomadatNet:
I wonder if they are letting doctors use serum hoses in their hospitals

They don't have their own hospitals, but have no objection to any particular medical treatment. Many of the US ones go to Mexico for treatment, since they don't usually have insurance and US hospitals are too expensive.

The wiki page is interesting, but unfortunately not very accurate.
NomadatNetThreads: 6
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 Feb 13, 11, 20:34    #30
Interesting that they find US hospitals are too expensives as Amishes are rich people. Again, interesting that they are spending their money in hospitals of poor regions like Mexico. They are either ahead of US or behind of US.


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