"Lithuania! My fatherland, you are like health.."

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 23:02 #1
how worth you are, those knows only who has lost you... Today your beauty in whole look I see and describe as I longing for you. Isn't that funny that every kid in Poland have to learn it by heart? ;)

♂

Oct 28, 10, 23:08 #2

Fatherland as a vague nazi vibe in modern English (blame WWII movies)

my go at those opening lines;

Lithuania, my homeland. You are like health,
your worth is known only to those who have lost you...

There is a need I think for a good prose translation of Pan Tadeusz into English, maybe printed as verse but with no effort at rhyme or rhythm.

The story and allusions are already hard enough for an English reader and the verse just makes it that much harder.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 28, 10, 23:42 #3
zetigrek: Lithuania! My fatherland, you are like health I know that you're trying to translate it into English exactly word per word but fatherland isn't the word we use. It is motherland even though I know that it sounds strange to you guys. Peace no war ! :-)

♂

Oct 28, 10, 23:52 #4

guesswho:

I know that you're trying to translate it into English exactly word per word but fatherland isn't the word we use.

Lithuania, my fatherland! You are like health;
How much you must be valued, will only discover
The one who has lost you.

(translation by Katie Busch-Sorensen)

Oh Lithuania, my fatherland,
you are like health--so valued when lost
beyond recovery; let these words now stand
restoring you, redeeming exile's cost.

(translation by Leonard Kress)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Tadeusz

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 29, 10, 00:05 #5
zetigrek: (translation by Leonard Kress) As I said, this is the exact, word per word translation from Polish to English but it isn't correct because we don't say fatherland, we say motherland. I know you and the Germans say fatherland to it. Don't worry about it, no big deal.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,789 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Oct 29, 10, 00:06 #6
Lithuania, my country! You are as good health: How much one should prize you, he only can tell Who has lost you. Weyland is the best I think

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,955 Joined: Aug 6, 09 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 00:58 #7
The word “ ojczyzno “ is not a motherland or fatherland is homeland it needs to be Lithuania, my homeland! You are like health;

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 02:07 #8
Poland and Lithuania should have closer relations than they do now, after such a long history existing side by side, it's a shame.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 29, 10, 02:19 #9
Marek11111: The word “ ojczyzno “ is not a motherland or fatherland is homeland it needs to be Lithuania, my homeland! You are like health; I wasn't trying to translate the text, I only said that we don't say fatherland, that's it.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 02:23 #10
Marek11111: The word “ ojczyzno “ is not a motherland or fatherland is homeland Sorry to destroy your boubble but "ojczyzna" dervies from the word "ojciec"? Which means father So I guess "fatherland" is pretty correct.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 29, 10, 02:26 #11
Mr Grunwald: So I guess "fatherland" is pretty correct. which is again not a correct translation from Polish to English but it's OK, no big deal, lol

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 02:28 #12
guesswho: which is again not a correct translation from Polish to English but it's OK, no big deal, lol "Home" doesn't exist in the Polish language. (House-Dom) does but not home

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Edited by: guesswho Oct 29, 10, 02:31 #13
Mr Grunwald: "Home" doesn't exist in the Polish language. (House-Dom) does but not home I'm sure, you're right about that, what I was trying to say is that in English we don't say fatherland. What you guys (Germans and Poles) call fatherland, we call motherland. To avoid any further discussion, just call it homeland :-)

♂

Oct 29, 10, 02:35 #14

guesswho:

I'm sure, you're right about that, what I was trying to say is that in English we don't say fatherland. What you guys (Germans and Poles) call fatherland, we call motherland.

Yes people have different names for that, some say "Homeland" "Motherland" "Fatherland"
Norwegians say: Fedreland (meaning Fatherland) or Hjemmelandet (Homeland) but fedrelandet sounds a bit more patriotic and if you want to appear neutral or not patriotic/nationalistic you say "Hjemmelandet" (in an situation that you come home and say "Oh good to be back in my Fatherland/Homeland")
Russians say "Motherland" If I'm not wrong

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Oct 29, 10, 02:35 #15

Marek11111:

The word “ ojczyzno “ is not a motherland or fatherland is homeland it needs to be
Lithuania, my homeland! You are like health;

I agree, poetry often cannot be translated verbatim because it then loses some of the original meaning.

I wonder what Mickiewicz would say today in our highly charged and politically correct environment when relationships are to be private or unspoken of.

Lithuanian Republic my significant other! You are as good health insurance:
How much one should tax you, IRS only can tell
Who has lost your tax return...

Litwo Znaczący Inna Moja... :)

♀

Edited by: guesswho Oct 29, 10, 02:39 #16

Mr Grunwald:

Yes people have different names for that, some say "Homeland" "Motherland" "Fatherland"
Norwegians say: Fedreland (meaning Fatherland) or Hjemmelandet (Homeland) but fedrelandet sounds a bit more patriotic and if you want to appear neutral or not patriotic/nationalistic you say "Hjemmelandet" (in an situation that you come home and say "Oh good to be back in my Fatherland/Homeland")
Russians say "Motherland" If I'm not wrong

Oh, I fully agree with you here. Everyone has its own name for it but most of the countries call it just like you guys, fatherland. We usually say homeland but if we had to choose between fatherland and motherland, it would be motherland.

♂

Oct 29, 10, 02:43 #17

Mr Grunwald:

ish we don't say fatherland. What you guys (Germans and Poles) call fatherland, we call motherland.
Yes people have different names for that, some say "Homeland" "Motherland" "Fatherland"
Norwegians say: Fedreland (meaning Fatherland) or Hjemmelandet (Homeland) but fedrelandet sounds a bit more patriotic and if you want to appear neutral or not patriotic/nationalistic you say "Hjemmelandet" (in an situation that you come home and say "Oh good to be back in my Fatherland/Homeland")
Russians say "Motherland" If I'm not wrong

Similar in Swedish were hemland and moderland are most common, translation unnecessary. Modersmål is equivalent to mother's tongue or native language.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 04:00 #18
guesswho: I know that you're trying to translate it into English exactly word per word but fatherland isn't the word we use. It is motherland even though I know that it sounds strange to you guys. Actually, both words are used. You need to brush up you English skills.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Edited by: guesswho Oct 29, 10, 04:22 #19
z_darius: You need to brush up you English skills. not in the same meaning though. I already explained above that we mainly use homeland anyway. But before we say fatherland, we would say motherland instead. Don't teach me English please as I'm not teaching you Polish. Remember one thing, what you find online about it is one thing and the other thing is what we are really using here.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Oct 29, 10, 04:31 #20

z_darius:

Actually, both words are used.
You need to brush up you English skills.

The term fatherland has a fairly negative connotation in English, at least in American English. It reverberates of Nazi Germany and most people who use it do it in the form of satire. Of course there are exceptions but you won't hear many Americans speak about their fatherland; more likely it'll be about their homeland and even motherland. Just my take on it.

♀

Edited by: guesswho Oct 29, 10, 04:36 #21

skysoulmate:

The term fatherland has a fairly negative connotation in English, at least in American English. It reverberates of Nazi Germany and most people who use it do it in the form of satire. Of course there are exceptions but you won't hear many Americans speaking about their fatherland; more likely it'll be about their homeland and even motherland. Just my take on it

It's not just your take on it, it is exactly the way you say it. We will most definitely use homeland.

♂

Edited by: z_darius Oct 29, 10, 04:44 #22

guesswho:

I already explained above that we mainly use homeland anyway. But before we say fatherland, we would say motherland instead.

Fair enough. But "Pan Tadeusz" is not a British or American epic, so your "we" does not apply here.

guesswho:

Remember one thing what you find online about it is one and the other thing is what we are really using here.

Agreed again. And the fact is that native speakers of English use all of the above, depending on the context.

Both motherland and fatherland sound weird in the American context. Heck, some Americans even have a problem with the word homeland.

guesswho:

Don't teach me English please as I'm not teaching you Polish.

I'll gladly accept any valuable lessons you may have to offer - English or Polish. In this thread I haven't noticed any. Even your suggestion that the word "motherland" should be used doesn't seem to agree with actual translations into English, where the word "country" is used instead.

skysoulmate:

The term fatherland has a fairly negative connotation in English, at least in American English. It reverberates of Nazi Germany and most people who use it do it in the form of satire.

I am aware of these connotations. The word "fatherland" under various guises is actually the root of patriotism (patria - the land of the fathers). Also, in Polish the word "fatherland" (ojczyzna/ojcowizna) may also denote the concept of inheritance in a wider or narrower sense.

But literature is literature. "Pan Tadeusz" predates Hitler and in the end its author indeed made a mistake because he did not write a version for the American public. You know... the happy ending and such.

trener zolwiaThreads: 5 Posts: 2,786 Joined: Jun 8, 10 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 04:54 #23
skysoulmate: you won't hear many Americans speak about their fatherland; more likely it'll be about their homeland and even motherland. Just my take on it. You're right. I don't know about the Nazi association but Americans are much more likely to say motherland than fatherland. guesswho: We will most definitely use homeland. This is indeed most common.

♀

Edited by: guesswho Oct 29, 10, 04:56 #24

z_darius:

I'll gladly accept any valuable lessons you may have to offer - English or Polish. In this thread I haven't noticed any. Even your suggestion that the word "motherland" should be used doesn't seem to agree with actual translations into English, where the word "country" is used instead.

I see, I hurt you a little bit here but it wasn't my intention at all, it's just that we really don't use fatherland at all. It's mostly homeland but it happens here and there that someone uses motherland. I've never heard anyone using fatherland. I know that the word fatherland is a part of English vocabulary however it's not in use in the US. The word country is commonly used in all kinds of situations, like for example "my country" but will you say: I'm going back home or I'm going back to my country? I assume, you claim to be a native speaker in English and then of course you'll say I'm going back home, right? Both expressions are technically right but it always depends on us people which one we choose to use and in our case, we use home or homeland instead to fatherland.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Oct 29, 10, 05:15 #25

z_darius:

I am aware of these connotations. The word "fatherland" under various guises is actually the root of patriotism (patria - the land of the fathers). Also, in Polish the word "fatherland" (ojczyzna/ojcowizna) may also denote the concept of inheritance in a wider or narrower sense.

But literature is literature. "Pan Tadeusz" predates Hitler and in the end its author indeed made a mistake because he did not write a version for the American public. You know... the happy ending and such.

Fair enough, the last part was a cheap shot but oh well, an easy and a popular target I guess.

My earlier point was that if we were to use a verbatim translation then the true meaning of his prose would be lost as ojczyzna might mean fatherland using a literal translation yet it'd sound very awkward in English. It's all good.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 29, 10, 05:19 #26
skysoulmate: It's all good. Thanks, Amen, lol

♂

Oct 29, 10, 05:34 #27

guesswho:

I see, I hurt you here a little bit here but it wasn't my intention at all, it's just that we really don't use fatherland at all. It's mostly homeland but it happens here and there that someone uses motherland. I've never heard anyone using fatherland. I know that the word fatherland is a part of English vocabulary however it's not in use in the US.

I don't feel hurt at all and I hope you don;t feel hurt when I suggest that your statements about American usage are a little too categorical, i.e. not really reliable.

Also, it seems that a lot of issues are mixed in here. We are talking about a nearly 200 year old text in Polish, translated into English a few times before, and we now try to do it again in the context of the 2010. Add to this a few PC rules and we are in a deep linguistic crap.

In the end, Mickiewicz used the word "fatherland" and his only mistake was that he did not foresee that language would eventually be one of the victims of history. The translations use the word "country" and that is only because the poem's rhythm.

guesswho:

The word country is commonly used in all kinds of situations, like for example "my country" but will you say: I'm going back home or I'm going back to my country?

That will definitely depend on the context and on the parties of the conversation so I can neither agree nor disagree with that statement.

guesswho:

I assume, you claim to be a native speaker in English and then of course you'll say I'm going back home, right? Both expressions are technically right but it always depends on us people which one we choose to use and in our case, we use home or homeland instead to fatherland.

Again, Pan Tadeusz does not refer to today's America, nor was it written for it, even if the word "fatherland" was in fact a very frequently used word n America, especially in the context of the early American history and in reference to it. Just read some of the literature by and about the Pilgrims.

And the homeland?
Let's see what American have to say about the word. Some examples:

Ms. Lewis complained: "I wasn’t alive during World War II, but I associate “the homeland” with Nazi propaganda. It’s fascistic and offensive." She prefers "U.S" or "America."

"Homeland" does sound very Nazi-esque, and completely at odds with American usages.
Probably Cheney's idea.

Doesn't "Dept of Homeland Security" translate pretty closely to "Gestapo" or "Stasi?" Literally?

So are you still sure the word "homeland" what "you people" use?
Oh, see more examples for yourself. All good ole' Americans.

guesswho:

I assume, you claim to be a native speaker in English

Read this sentence again. It's pretty weird.

Anyway, I made no such claims so your assumptions are baseless. I like the English language and I am a keen observer. Not being a native speaker actually may be giving me some advantages over you, since evidently I notice things that escape your attention.

♀

Oct 29, 10, 06:14 #28

z_darius:

not really reliable.

This is the point, it's absolutely reliable as I know for a fact that we don't use "fatherland " here, this much is for sure. If an American would make that translation from Polish, it would be most likely homeland or home. I really don't feel like arguing with you and keep repeating myself. Just please try to accept it, we don't use the word "fatherland" in the US. Man, that's ridiculous. I'm just trying to imagine a situation when you write something in Polish and I'm correcting you, lol

z_darius:

Again, Pan Tadeusz does not refer to today's America

You're right but from the beginning on I wasn't saying anything about that book itself. I was only saying that we don't use the word "fatherland" here, that's it.

z_darius:

"Homeland" does sound very Nazi-esque, and completely at odds with American usages

Not to us though. Home or homeland is OK but fatherland reminds people on WW2 and the Nazis and this is one of the reasons why we don't use it.

z_darius:

Doesn't "Dept of Homeland Security" translate pretty closely to "Gestapo" or "Stasi?" Literally?

I tell you something, come to the US and tell someone here that the Department of Homeland Security is the same to you as Nazi Gestapo or GDR Stasi and I'm sure you'll find someone really quick to "explain" you the difference.
You're going "a little bit" too far "my friend". I'm not making this kind of comparison when I talk about Poland or Canada, am I?

z_darius:

Read this sentence again. It's pretty weird.

nothing is weird at all, OK maybe to you, who gives a who.

z_darius:

since evidently I notice things that escape your attention.

This is what you believe but I'd like to hear your English, I wonder how you sound and how you build your sentences when not having those few minutes in between to reply.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 29, 10, 06:19 #29
z_darius: you should be above to figure that out Hm........and you're trying to correct me? LOLOL

♂

Oct 29, 10, 06:34 #30

guesswho:

This is the point, it's absolutely reliable as I know for a fact that we don't use "fatherland " here, this much is for sure.

That's better.

guesswho:

Not to us though.

Who is "us"? I quoted native speakers of American English. Are you speaking for yourself or some small group of people?

guesswho:

I tell you something, come to the US and tell someone here that the Department of Homeland Security is the same to you as Nazi Gestapo or GDR Stasi and I'm sure you'll find someone really quick to "explain" you the difference.

I spent 8 years living, studying and working in the US and I said some along the lines of the above and more. It is a free country after all, is it not? The sad thing is that your political views appear to have distracted you from the topic I though were were discussing, and that was not politics.

guesswho:

You're going "a little bit" too far "my friend". I'm not making this kind of comparison when I talk about Poland or Canada, am I?

I am going to far? Why? Because I quote Americans? I thought we were talking about the English usage in the US? Was I wrong?

guesswho:

nothing is weird at all, OK maybe to you, who gives a who.

Simply put, the sentence is illogical.

guesswho:

This is what you believe but I'd like to hear your English, I wonder how you sound and how you build your sentences when not having those few minutes in between to reply.

To satisfy your curiosity:
I have an accent. In the US they say it sounds kinda British, in Canada they think it sounds between Dutch and German.
I work for a government and I have to address large groups of people, and without a script prepared ahead of time. I am frequently asked by native Canadians to review written texts before they are posted in public. when I feel like it, I check those texts for grammar, style and lexical coherence. My educational backround is (among others) English Lit. and Linguistics in Poland, US (Vanderbilt) and Canada. Hope this helps.

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