"Lithuania! My fatherland, you are like health.."

♂

Edited by: z_darius Oct 29, 10, 06:52 #31

trener zolwia:

Resorting to attack and distraction.

Oh brother. Grow up.

In the United States, the Department of Homeland Security was created soon after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, as a means to centralize response to various threats. The term is rarely used by common United States citizens to refer to their country, which made the chosen name sound odd to many.[1] In a June 2002 column, Republican consultant and speechwriter Peggy Noonan expressed the hope that the Bush administration would change the name of the department, writing that, "The name Homeland Security grates on a lot of people, understandably. Homeland isn't really an American word, it's not something we used to say or say now".[2]

source.

Go argue with them.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Edited by: guesswho Oct 29, 10, 07:45 #32
FlaglessPole: the real point was/is We haven't really been talking about the book itself. The whole problem started because he was constantly denying the fact that in the US, we don't use the expression "fatherland", that's it. I'm not saying that the word doesn't exist, I'm saying, we're not using it or not using it in this context.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Oct 29, 10, 09:11 #33

z_darius:

If we want to illustrate the language of the times then "fatherland" will be very much appropriate as this is what is used in the poem, and this is what was used in America in 17,18 and 19th centuries. Read any number of diaries, memoirs or sermons written in those times. You find plenty of references to fatherland, although the spelling will likely be "father's land".

Don't forget that during the time frame you're quoting Germans and/or German speakers had a huge presence in America; I'm certain the term fatherland, father's land, etc. was much more common then than it is now. (hmm, did I spell this right? lol)

I'm butting out of this discussion as I think the main points have already been made.

1) Pan Tadeusz represents an incredible piece of literature,
2) Translating poetry is difficult and often influenced by regional preferences and linguistic differences. Most often the beauty of poetry lies in the eye of the beholder or rather in the eyes of the reader,
3) Some people hate America no matter what,
4) Some people love America no matter what,
5) It's late, time to go to bed.

♂

Edited by: mafketis Oct 29, 10, 10:45 #34

This is a nice example of how difficult good translation can be. As far as I can tell there's no good way to translate the first three words into modern (American) English (I won't make any claims about any other variety).

Let's look at the obvious possiblities....

1. Fatherland, technically the most 'accurate' but what good is 'accuracy' when the word will likely trigger unintended negative connotations in a large segment of modern readers?

2. Country, kind of blah and colorless

3. Homeland, I would have preferred this before the "Department of Homeland Security", But now the word has acquired political connotations (whether positive or negative for a given person) so that clash with the poem's aim. It was a little dicey before since a lot of people might also associate the word with the old South African aparthheid regime. Personally I like it the best but it's problematic now.

4. Motherland, better than fatherland in terms of connotations and 'mother' matches the feminine gender of ojczyzna(!) but it's still far from natural.

5. Other options? 'Land of my (fore)fathers'' of "My forefathers' land" might work but is too many syllables (since Lithuania is also a lot longer than the oriignal).

And that's not even touching the fact that the Lithuania in question is not the current country of the same name... Obvious to Polish readers, but far from obvious to Anglophones. I might suggest either

a) Litwa (with an English w) IIRC Weyland uses the adjective form Litwan
b) Lithua - a neologism but one without the connotations of the modern Lithuania

Perhaps something like

"Lithua, my forefathers' land"
or
"Lithua, my father's land"
or
"Lithua, land of my fathers"

might end up being best, but probably won't be accepted for a number of reasons

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,835 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 11:16 #35
Lithuania, my homeland, I liken you to good health, How much you should be be cherished only the one can know Who's lost such wealth. (Nothing can ever approach the original. The above pitiful attempt at a translation is bumpy and does not flow, but at least the number of syllables in each line is the same and a rhyme has been retained.)

♂

Oct 29, 10, 15:12 #36

z_darius:

"I wasn’t alive during World War II, but I associate “the homeland” with Nazi propaganda. It’s fascistic and offensive." She prefers "U.S" or "America."

"Homeland" does sound very Nazi-esque, and completely at odds with American usages.
Probably Cheney's idea.

Doesn't "Dept of Homeland Security" translate pretty closely to "Gestapo" or "Stasi?" Literally?

It's like saying "Motherland" is communistic as Russians/Commies in Soviet Union used it for recruitment campaigns, oh COME ON!

hague1cmaeronThreads: 21 Posts: 1,654 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Oct 30, 10, 02:02 #37
[quote=skysoulmate]Lithuanian Republic my significant other! You are as good health insurance: How much one should tax you, IRS only can tell Who has lost your tax return...[/quote Lol yes, I think that is the essential 21st century version coming to Polish schools near you.

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