Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea?

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 13:11 #121
Matowy: Coincidentally, that is one of the books I am reading right now. Great stuff, eh? have you seen Anthony Hopkins' Othello? Of course, Shakespeare couldn't have been knowingly anti-semitic, because it was highly unlikely he'd have knowingly ever met a Jew ;-)

♂

Mar 8, 10, 13:29 #122

Enkidu, you are twisting and turning like a prize eel and I'm just looking on at you ;0 ;)

So, a bit of inferential logic for you. You are saying that Poles will be offended by a mere classification?

We also say in English 'I worked like a nig*er' which emanates from the slave trade. However, it is not directed at anybody black then. When you say 'Ty Czarnuchu', it is clear what you are saying.

So, do you recognise racism when you see it?

♂

Edited by: enkidu Mar 8, 10, 20:41 #123

Seanus:

(...)
So, do you recognise racism when you see it?

Among other situations I can smell a strong smell of racism when I am required to fill in a form which asked me a questions about my ethnic background. Usually I declare myself as "Black Caribbean".
I ignored your question before simply because I don't see any point in discussion about my personal experiences. If there is any point - I would be happy if you convince me.

As for my "twisted intelligence": I don't pretend that my point of view is the only one valid. You guys do this. Obviously you have got some "untouchable" truths that you believe don't required questioning or close examination. You call it - obvious things.
And your arguments are:
"Come on, You know this is true" (well - I don't)
Using *bold* letters. Like: This *is* racist. (Bold letters don't impress me much)
"Everyone knows that!" (well - I don't. So - not so everyone, right?)

Ta make long story short - you guys are deny that somewhere over there are different countries exist, with different cultures that have got every right to be judge by their own standards. You just presume that your Western standards are universal. If something *is* racists - this attitude certainly is as such.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 21:20 #124
I see 4 pages later enkidu still has an argument going on what "racism" is. It is a worldwide standard...just like many other things. You may choose to disagree with it and ignore it but it remains the standard.

♂

Mar 8, 10, 21:52 #125

enkidu:

And - Czarnuch is racist term only if somebody really hard want it to be racist.

Come on, czarnuch is simply a ni*ger... there have been many clowns here playing on "Polish racism" string or fools saying that a word Murzyn is racist but the person, who started this topic doesn't seem to belong to that group. Poland and Poles get much more criticizm for racism then deserve but don't say that this problem don't exist at all as It isn't true either.

♂

Mar 8, 10, 21:52 #126

beelzebub:

I see 4 pages later enkidu still has an argument going on what "racism" is. It is a worldwide standard...just like many other things. You may choose to disagree with it and ignore it but it remains the standard.

It is YOUR standard. Not the Polish one. Probably not Chinese, not Nigerian, not Russian. This is your western standards by which you judge other cultures and which you try to impose on us. Presumably because somewhere deep in your minds there is idea that we are too stupid to decide for ourselves. And this is racists attitude. You are racists, man. Face it.

I understand the western sense of guilt. You did made a good profit on the slave trade, racism and colonization. Don't expect us to share this shame with you. We (mean Poland) never participate in this scum. Right now your mantra is "We were racist, but this is part of human nature. Everyone is racist. Our guilt is not so special." You are trying to blend-in by accusing everyone of having your own nasty traits. But the truth is: You were racist. (Maybe you still are). You've made profit of it.
We don't.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 21:52 #127
Yeah, cut the philosophising and start to come to terms with reality, enkidu.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 21:57 #128
:\| Amazing. I lived in Poland for a long time...other places too. I am pretty sure I know what "standards" are universal and which are local. I have no guilt about things people did in the past even if they were my relatives. Nice try though. I am only responsible for my actions not others.

♀

Mar 8, 10, 21:57 #129

enkidu:

It is YOUR standard. Not the Polish one. Probably not Chinese, not Nigerian, not Russian. This is your western standards by which you judge other cultures and which you try to impose on us. Presumably because somewhere deep in your minds there is idea that we are too stupid to decide for ourselves. And this is racists attitude. You are racists, man. Face it.

I understand the western sense of guilt. You did made a good profit on the slave trade, racism and colonization. Don't expect us to share this shame with you. We (mean Poland) never participate in this scum. Right now your mantra is "We were racist, but this is part of human nature. Everyone is racist. Our guilt is not so special." You are trying to blend-in by accusing everyone of having your own nasty traits. But the truth is: You were racist. (Maybe you still are). You've made profit of it.
We d

well, I have to agree with most of the points here. Good post.

Seanus:

Yeah, cut the philosophising and start to come to terms with reality, enkidu.

I think he already did tell you what he thinks and what you think about what he thinks is not going to change it LOL

♂

Mar 8, 10, 22:02 #130

enkidu:

I understand the western sense of guilt. You did made a good profit on the slave trade, racism and colonization. Don't expect us to share this shame with you. We (mean Poland) never participate in this scum. Right now your mantra is "We were racist, but this is part of human nature. Everyone is racist. Our guilt is not so special." You are trying to blend-in by accusing everyone of having your own nasty traits. But the truth is: You were racist. (Maybe you still are). You've made profit of it.
We don't.

That's very true. We definately shouldn't have any "diversity programs" or any other PC nonsense as we owe non-whites nothing but calling someone a nig*ger (or czarnuch) just because she/he is black, is simply wrong.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 22:13 #131
Grzegorz_: ut calling someone a nig*ger (or czarnuch) just because she/he is black, is simply wrong. Finally a Pole who has sense about this. Thank you. Anyone who could imagine we should have guilt because of what people did 200 or more years ago has lost all credibility.

♂

Mar 8, 10, 22:39 #132

Grzegorz_:

That's very true. We definately shouldn't have any "diversity programs" or any other PC nonsense as we owe non-whites nothing but calling someone a nig*ger (or czarnuch) just because she/he is black, is simply wrong.

I can only answer you by quoting some of my previous posts (I feel sorry that I have to do that):

"You see this word as racist simply because you automatically translate it into English. And translation is an N-word. But N-word is quite different story. N-word has a certain cultural context and meaning which is lack in Czarnuch."

"Matowy:
You presume wrong. Racism is a prejudice directed towards people of a specific or broad ethnic group. Further meanings can include prejudice based on culture, nationality, or stereotype enforcement.

Enkidu: According to this definition - calling somebody "Czarnuch" can not be seen as racist act as there is no prejudice attached to this word.
Specifically - one can't expect that the said czarnuch would behave in certain way (if he would tend ie to steal, rape, being unemployed, or having poor personal higene etc) as definition and common understanding of word "czarnuch" does not include such broad interpretation.
Thank you."

I don't pretend that this is a nice and polite way to describe somebody. It isn't.
But once more: we don't talk here about kindness and politeness. We talk about racism.
You certainly can label someone as "czarnuch". It doesn't necessarily have to be used as insult against black person. More common usage is: "This guy has no respect for himself, he work very hard for a little money". This is not nice - I agree. But this is not racist. Racist term has to by definition to be used in order to describe someone of certain race. The "czarnuch" is a color-blind term. You can be czarnuch. I can be czarnuch. Everybody can be a czarnuch. It's has nothing to do with the particular person's skin shade or race.

ArienThreads: 6 Posts: 1,604 Joined: Oct 20, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 22:45 #133
JemmaR34: Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? Yeah, why not? :)

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 22:46 #134
Arien: Yeah, why not? :) Thank you. That is the perfect answer. :-)

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 22:59 #135
enkidu: Thank you. That is the perfect answer. :-) I said that ages ago, but you called her insulting and racist for simply asking a genuine question.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 23:00 #136
Trevek: I said that ages ago, but you called her insulting and racist for simply asking a genuine question. Seconded...you did do this enkidu. Ironically you accused someone of being racist. Make up your mind. Good catch Trevek.

♂

Mar 8, 10, 23:07 #137

beelzebub:

I have no guilt about things people did in the past even if they were my relatives. Nice try though. I am only responsible for my actions not others.

Western world is so rich thanks to death and the suffering of millions of innocent people. A lot of infrastructure that you are still using everyday was probably founded by slave exploitation or colonial gains. You have no sense of guilt that you can still benefit from this wealth since on the other end of this money-pipe there are some people that are still dying from starvation in order to pay for yout comfortable life? You think that this is not your business?
Who is in the state of denial now?
You.

Poland may be seems as a poor country. But at least - we didn't build our country on the blood of defenseless people. I am proud of it. Don't throw your racist mud on me.

♂

Mar 8, 10, 23:10 #138

Hahaha....yeah as if Poland was built on the backs of only hard working and honest people? Give me a break. Every developed nation is guilty of things we now think are not nice.

I have no guilt nor responsibility for anything someone in the past did. I find it humorous that you imagine anyone could. Guilt is a reaction to having done something wrong. I didn't do any of those things. I live my life well and give to others when I can. I do not own slaves and do not waste in life.

Even if say my father or someone right in my bloodline did something bad I bear no responsibility for that and therefore no guilt.

Methinks you have semantics issues and like to pretend things mean differently than they really do.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 23:19 #139
beelzebub: I find it humorous that you imagine anyone could. Guilt is a reaction to having done something wrong. I didn't do any of those things. You are still benefit of this. You didn't do a bad things - someone else did it for you. How comfortable...

Amanda91Threads: 3 Posts: 336 Joined: May 27, 07 ♀	Edited by: Amanda91 Mar 8, 10, 23:21 #140
beelzebub: Hahaha....yeah as if Poland was built on the backs of only hard working and honest people? well, nowadays Poland is is built on EU cash, nothing else. It's a known fact. If anyone had to work hard, it's the people from the western Europe, especially Germans, French and British. enkidu: someone else did it for you. How comfortable... exactly how comfortable is that, enkidu? lol

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Mar 8, 10, 23:31 #141
Amanda91: well, nowadays Poland is is built on EU cash, nothing else. It's a known fact. If anyone had to work hard, it's the people from the western Europe, especially Germans, French and British. It must be embarrassing to be you. Google some basic data.

♂

Edited by: beelzebub Mar 8, 10, 23:31 #142

enkidu:

You are still benefit of this. You didn't do a bad things - someone else did it for you. How comfortable...

I never give it a thought unless someone like you brings it up. You know why? Because I had no control over where and when I was brought into this life. Zero. Therefore I have no responsibility for anything that occurred before I was old enough to control my own actions. Therefore I feel no guilt about that bad things people did before me. Simple.

What do you want me to do cry daily for all the slaves in history? Should I flog myself, not use indoor plumbing and give everything I earn to the ancestors of said slaves? No thanks.

We all....every one of us...YOU INCLUDED...live on the backs of those who came before us. We live using their architectures, cultures, economies etc. You are not more "wholesome" if you come from a village in Tibet than if you are born to Lenin. You sound like a hippy.

Amanda91Threads: 3 Posts: 336 Joined: May 27, 07 ♀	Edited by: Amanda91 Mar 8, 10, 23:32 #143
Bzibzioh: It must be embarrassing to be you. Google some basic data. did you look in the mirror when you said it? Are you trying to deny the fact the Poland received (still does) billions of Euros from the EU?

♂

Mar 8, 10, 23:33 #144

beelzebub:

I have no guilt nor responsibility for anything someone in the past did.

Unfortunately slave labour still exists, and most people in most countries aren't doing anything about this. Quite the contrary actually, most people even profit or benefit from this injustice.

It's also our responsibility though, because we can choose not to buy the cheapest clothes made by children, and we can choose not to outsource to countries where people are basically exploited, and in most cases forced to work for little or nothing. We can choose to pay people in Africa a fair price for their resources.

beelzebub:

I find it humorous that you imagine anyone could. Guilt is a reaction to having done something wrong.

Well, even if it's not you who's doing it, you are just as much a part of the bigger scheme as I am, and I'm just going to say that most of us simply don't care enough, and basically allow these things to happen. So in a sense we're all guilty.

beelzebub:

I didn't do any of those things. I live my life well and give to others when I can. I do not own slaves and do not waste in life.

Like I've said previously, we may not own slaves, but we allow companies to use people as slaves. So in a way we do have slaves who perform certain tasks for us. Think about that for a second.

;)

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 23:33 #145
Amanda91: well, nowadays Poland is is built on EU cash, nothing else. Absolutely, because 0.5% of GDP worth of EU money is what is driving this country.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Edited by: beelzebub Mar 8, 10, 23:33 #146
Nope.....not feeling guilty. Next topic? Regarding Poland's finances it is well known that without assistance from the EU and international investors Poland would collapse financially. All nations are intertwined now and many could not survive if they were cut out of that circle of funds. More pride showing.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Mar 8, 10, 23:36 #147
Amanda91: did you look in the mirror when you said it? Wow, how creative! What about defending your statement?

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 23:37 #148
Another Polish expat defending the virtues of Poland while not even living there or having anything to do with life there. How quaint.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Mar 8, 10, 23:41 #149
beelzebub: Another Polish expat defending the virtues of Poland while not even living there or having anything to do with life there. How quaint. How boring. Again.

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	"Polska" means "Poland" in Polish!	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 04:21 / May 27
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com