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WHY DO POLES USE ENGLISH WORDS IN CONVERSATION?


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 Oct 25, 11, 18:08    #331
boletus:
You should try "Pamiętniki" of Jan Chryzostom Pasek sometime. That's an eye opener!

Indeed, in the part of the memoirs in which Pasek is defending himself before the Sejm, with the king listening in, he is constantly lapsing into Latin and alluding to biblical and classical stories in such an arbitrary manner that, after several pages, the English translator informs the reader that although this bizarre speech goes on much longer, she is neglecting to translate it any further, and thus sparing the reader, and herself, further exasperation. Quite a feat for old Jan to be so intensely baroque that even a scholar of the baroque couldn't take it anymore.

Lyzko:
At least in English, "schadenfreude" resp. "Schadenfreude" means 'malicious gloating'! True, in the original there's only one word for English two, but this is as good a native equivalent as one can get.

"Malicious gloating" fails to express the meaning of "Schadenfreude" which is literally "shameful happiness". It is a feeling of mirth that one feels guilty about having.

JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Oct 25, 11, 19:15    #332
boletus:
That's what your English wikipedia says. :-)

I wouldn't know - never use it ;-)
boletus:
Latin was in use in Poland since 10th century, long before any cultural contacts with England have been stablished.

Interesting, however we don't know very much about 10th Century Poland and the way they spoke can only be guessed at. Also, we aren't discussing how Latin words are or were used in Latin; we are discussing how they might be used in Polish. We know the first written sources containing the word gratis and how its spread can be provably traced across Europe. We also know that it existed in written Middle English.
boletus:
There is a quote from Jesus Christ: Gratis accepistis, gratis date

As far as we know, He spoke neither Latin nor Polish.

Magdalena:
And no, schadenfreude is NOT the same as malicious gloating - the fact that the word comes from German adds an extra layer of meaning, say what you might! ;-P

Exactly - otherwise people would just say 'malicious gloating' Schadenfreude is quite different. There's also the euphemistic use of loan words. Menage a trois and partouse sound better than any of the alternatives. I just wish the Poles wouldn't say sponsoring when they mean a discreet form of prostitution.
isthatu2Threads: 13
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 Oct 25, 11, 21:53    #333
JonnyM:
I just wish the Poles wouldn't say sponsoring when they mean a discreet form of prostitution.

Explains the odd looks when I talk about sponsoring a small boy in Northern Thailand.......
southernThreads: 116
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 Oct 25, 11, 23:00    #334
JonnyM:
Menage a trois and partouse sound better than any of the alternatives.


I remember a slogan shouted by Greek fans during the Euro 2004 match between Greece and CR in the semi finals.They were singing to the Czechs:
Bring the beers and we bring the ouzo
and bring the czech women to do a partouse
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Oct 25, 11, 23:04    #335
southern:
Bring the beers and we bring the ouzo
and bring the czech women to do a partouse

Classic! Wouldn't work in any other language ;-)
Lyzko  Oct 25, 11, 23:17    #336
What else is "malicious gloating" other than "shameful (actually "harmful", to be literally exact in German!) happiness"?? I'm a translator so I've often got to second guess meaning in order to arrive at some sort of textual veracity.
Think we're splitting hairs, frankly-:)
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Edited by: gumishu  Oct 25, 11, 23:27    #337
Lyzko:
What else is "malicious gloating" other than "shameful (actually "harmful", to be literally exact in German!) happiness"?? I'm a translator so I've often got to second guess meaning in order to arrive at some sort of textual veracity.
Think we're splitting hairs, frankly-:)


I always thought Schadenfreude means that one is happy of someone else's misfortune (judging from German meanings of both parts of the word)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude
Lyzko  Oct 25, 11, 23:42    #338
..which is precisely in English what "gloating" means (...practically always "malicious", by the way!)-:)

You brag about your great new house and your terrific salary. Suddenly, you're hit by a car and wind up in the hospital. Most of your terrific salary goes into paying your medical bills. The day before though, you stuck out your tongue at your "poorer" subordinates and today they're better off than you. They see you now, no longer so high and mighty. They smirk and snicker as you hobble along the streets, laughing at your hybris right to your face.

THAT'S Schadenfreude!!!! Or, as the Germans would say: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude! = Gloating is the sweetest revenge! Perhaps too "He who laughs last, laughts best!"
boletusThreads: 47
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Edited by: boletus  Oct 26, 11, 14:22    #339
JonnyM:
Interesting, however we don't know very much about 10th Century Poland

Oh yes, we know enough. We know that Latin came to Poland via Bohemia, with St. Adalbert, his monks and baptism of Poland in 966. Written annals began to be generated in the late 10th century; first Polish Christian rulers were considered literate and educated. The secular annals later served as a basis for chronicles, such as Chronicle by Gallus Anonymus (around 1112-1116) or Polish Chronicles by Wincenty Kadłubek (ca 1202).

Here is a nice and short introduction to literary background during Middle Ages in Poland. The author, professor Mikos is also a renown translator from Latin and Polish and an author of several anthologies of Polish literature (in English), including "Medieval Literature of Poland".
http://staropolska.pl/ang/middleages/Mikos_middle/Literary_m.html
Below is a short excerpt from Chronicles of Gallus Anonymus, a part of that anthology. In this verse Poles are overjoyed after gaining access to Pomerania and Baltic Sea.

Agitabant patres nostri cervos, apros, capreas,
Hii venantur monstra maris et opes aequoreas.

Nasi ojce na jelenie urządzali polowanie,
A my skarby i potwory łowim, skryte w oceanie.

Our fathers hunted for deer,
But we hunt for treasures and monsters, hidden in the ocean.

=JonnyM:
and the way they spoke can only be guessed at.

How is it relevant? But I know enough about four schools of Latin pronunciation, including the funny English way. :-)
=JonnyM:
As far as we know, He spoke neither Latin nor Polish.

:-) But any monk worth his own black cassock had to know the Latin phrase "Gratis accepistis, gratis date" by heart. And from there, there is just one step to vernacular Polish. Same as with other Latin phrases, like "Deo Gracias". In Catholic Poland "Niech będzie pochwalony (Jezus Chrystus)" and "Na wieki wieków. Amen" were more popular for ages than the secular "Dzieńdobry", especially at the countrysite. "Szczęść Boże" and "Bóg zapłać" are also direct translations of Latin phrases.

I checked several Polish dictionaries, and one German source, and none ever mentions English parentage in the etymology chain of the word "gratis" either in Polish or in German. They all refer directly to the Latin original word "gratiis".

So sorry, your hypothesis here is quite weak. England simply was not in a center of Poland's cultural interests during medieval times. Italy was, France was, Germany had to be, as a close neighbour. But we just traded with you in Polish grain, timber and other produce.

I followed the Jan Brożek "Gratis" document, which I previously described, and I found it interesting enough to quote a passage from an article devoted to him. As you can see, people were flogged, "Gratis" was burnt at stake. So I rest my case here. :-)

In 1625, an unsigned pamphlet was printed and distributed in Kraków. It opened with the word Gratis. The pamphlet deals with the allegedly free (gratis) education offered by the Jesuits. The author argues that the claim of a free education is false. The author was, as it turned out, Brożek, and the pamphlet was his contribution in the struggle agains Jesuits. However, this episode ended badly. The city guards raided the printer’s shop, the owner was arrested, flogged at the pillory and banned from Kraków. Gratis was burned at the pillory but Brożek was spared because the Academy defended him firmly.
The Jesuits replied by publishing "Gratis Plebański" [The Parson’s Gratis]. That awkward but venomous text was written by Fryderyk Szembek, a well-known Kraków Jesuit theologian disguised under the pen name of Pięknorzecki (which can be roughly translated as Goldentongued). The Kraków students staged a public auto da fe of "Gratis Plebański" burning it at the stake in one of the city’s squares. This incident shows once again how heated the conflict between the Academy and the Jesuits was. Brożek continued for some time to participate in the struggle. He wrote several memorials in defense of the Academy, traveled many times to Warsaw, already a capital at that time, and petitioned the royal court to defend the university against the Jesuits.

www.gallusanonymus.fr/resources/BrozekPIASA_fin.pdf
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 Oct 26, 11, 17:04    #340
boletus:
Oh yes, we know enough

It would be great if that were true, but it isn't. We know scraps only.
boletus:
How is it relevant? But I know enough about four schools of Latin pronunciation

We're talking about loanwords in the Polish language.Linguists can only hypothesise about the way the predecessor of Polish sounded at that time.
boletus:
So sorry, your hypothesis here is quite weak.

But accurate. Unless you can find a record of the word having passed from Latin to a modern European language earlier. There's no reason to assume it passed directly from English to Polish without being adopted in other languages on the way!
Psyfy  Dec 19, 11, 10:10    #341
I had a bit of a giggle when a Polish guy visiting Australia last year tried to order Coleslaw at the rather 'Wiocha' Coles Deli. He knew that the 'C' was was not pronounced as 'TS' so he put it all together in Pinglish and ended up asking for 'Kol-ee-swauve'. The old Aussie chick behind the counter couldn't understand what he wanted so called her husband out and he couldn't work it out either. Eventually the Polak pointed to it behind the glass and got what he wanted. :)
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jan 3, 12, 00:57    #342
Just streamed some Polish TV, there were 4-5 people talking, and the title at the bottom of the screen was, "Downshifting - Chce wolniej zyc"

and THEN, in conversation, a guy said, ".....downshiftowalem......".

and of course, shortly after, "......duzo deadline'ow....."

worse and worse, folks.
strzygaThreads: 4
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 Jan 3, 12, 01:00    #343
FUZZYWICKETS:
worse and worse, folks.

Need a tissue?
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jan 3, 12, 01:10    #344
strzyga:
Need a tissue?


yes, so i can blowmynoseowac.
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 Jan 3, 12, 01:16    #345
FUZZYWICKETS:
worse and worse, folks.

I know. I know. It's crazy!
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 Jan 3, 12, 03:11    #346
Omg! I'm watching "Chichot Losu" and this guy curses in English! He says sh*t! btw the chick is hot!!!
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jan 3, 12, 03:26    #347
rybnik:
this guy curses in English! He says sh*t


I'm gonna curse in Polish all day at work tomorrow. It's the same thing, right?
sarahkThreads: -
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Edited by: sarahk  Jan 3, 12, 04:04    #348
zachodzie:
: a) When I try to speak Polish, people (especially the younger ones) simply reply to me in English. If I'm making the effort to learn and speak your language, at least have the decency to talk back to me in Polish. This is also very hypocritical because I often hear people complaining that foreigners (especially English) come to Poland and don't bother learning even basic Polish. You should be proud of your language, not butchering it with English words, which quite frankly sound so wrong when used in a Polish sentence.


There's a simple solution to that -- just tell them in Polish that you'd prefer them to speak Polish so you can practice. It's easy to be polite about it.

There's nothing wrong with using English in Polish. Most countries use English words, and words borrowed from other languages as well.

For example, Polish also uses the word "spacerować" from the German "spazieren" and means "to go for a walk". Germans and Austrians use so many French words, such as "Portemonnaie" for "wallet". It's a sign of globalization.
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 Jan 3, 12, 11:35    #349
sarahk:
It's a sign of globalization.


"downshiftowalem" is a sign of madness.
MagdalenaThreads: 5
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 Jan 3, 12, 11:54    #350
Downshifting is a relatively new word even in English. It's concise, and describes a new social phenomenon.
The only dictionary translation I found into Polish is "zmienić pracę na mniej stresującą i mniej płatną". Quite a mouthful.

I guess, as the phenomenon grows (if it does), more Polish people will start using it and will soon get fed up with its ungainliness. It's not the easiest to inflect or pronounce. That's when someone will come up with a Polish equivalent.

So keep your hair on. ;-)
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 Jan 3, 12, 13:13    #351
FUZZYWICKETS:
"downshiftowalem" is a sign of madness.

Wow!
Magdalena:
Downshifting is a relatively new word even in English. It's concise, and describes a new social phenomenon.
The only dictionary translation I found into Polish is "zmienić pracę na mniej stresującą i mniej płatną". Quite a mouthful.

It shows how quickly words can spread.

I'm just waiting for 'Ciapaki' to reach Poland...
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Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS  Jan 3, 12, 13:27    #352
Magdalena:
That's when someone will come up with a Polish equivalent.


still waiting for them to come up with an equivalent for "znokautowac" and "boarding", just to name a few.

Magdalena:
Downshifting is a relatively new word even in English. It's concise, and describes a new social phenomenon.


a new social phenomenon? i don't get it.

In American English, to downshift is used to describe shifting gears in a mechanical device like a car, motorcycle, bicycle, etc., and it has been used for as long as I can remember.

I have never heard an American or any native speaker of English say, "Geeze, I really need to downshift, I'm going to exhaust myself this week." Of the native UK/Australia/New Zealand English speakers out there, have you ever heard "downshifting" being used in this way?
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Jan 3, 12, 13:30    #353
FUZZYWICKETS:
I have never heard an American or any native speaker of English say, "Geeze, I really need to downshift, I'm going to exhaust myself this week." Of the native UK/Australia/New Zealand English speakers out there, have you ever heard "downshifting" being used in this way?

It means selling your hows in London and buying a cheaper one in the countryside. Generally spending less and living more modestly. Usually used by people whose income has plummeted but they have assets.
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 Jan 3, 12, 13:33    #354
sarahk:
Germans and Austrians use so many French words, such as "Portemonnaie" for "wallet".


We use this word in Polish too

JonnyM:
I'm just waiting for 'Ciapaki' to reach Poland...


This actually is a Polish word
MagdalenaThreads: 5
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Edited by: Magdalena  Jan 3, 12, 13:46    #355
FUZZYWICKETS:
In American English, to downshift is used to describe shifting gears in a mechanical device like a car, motorcycle, bicycle, etc., and it has been used for as long as I can remember.



That would be "wrzucić niższy bieg" in Polish. But we are discussing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downshifting
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 Jan 3, 12, 13:55    #356
m1ke:
This actually is a Polish word

Yes, but a very new one coined by the wave of Polish people who moved to London since 2004. Perhaps I should have spelt it 'Czapaki'. Can you guess the meaning?
MagdalenaThreads: 5
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 Jan 3, 12, 13:58    #357
JonnyM:
Perhaps I should have spelt it 'Czapaki'.


No, you definitely shouldn't have.

;-p
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 Jan 3, 12, 14:28    #358
Magdalena:
But we are discussing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downshifting


and I've never heard it being used that way, hence, why I'm asking native speakers of English on here if they have any experience with this particular usage.
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Edited by: sarahk  Jan 3, 12, 17:03    #359
m1ke:
We use this word in Polish too


Exactly, it's not just English words that are being used and it's due to close proximity to other languages and open borders. I always think they're funny :)


FUZZYWICKETS:
and I've never heard it being used that way, hence, why I'm asking native speakers of English on here if they have any experience with this particular usage.


See what JonnyM wrote. I've seen/heard it used like that also.
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 Jan 3, 12, 18:52    #360
JonnyM:
I'm just waiting for 'Ciapaki' to reach Poland...


I've already heard it (in Poznan) but from someone who was working in Warsaw.

Except the version I heard was ciapaty (adjective in form though treated as a noun phrase), plural ciapaci.

Some very quick googling seems to indicate that ciapaki (singular ciapak) is more insulting.

It means (South) Asian.


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