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The Polish Dream - move out from this country as fast as possible

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posts: 57

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Oct 29, 10, 15:39 #31

David how old was your friend's brother? Because if he is indeed little, he doesn't know much about working abroad and maybe doesn't know that it has both positive and negative sides.

A lot of people to work in the UK because they wanted to earn more money, so they could provide better lives for their families in Poland. Not because they wanted to live in the West. And I don't see anything bad about moving abroad for work. Also a lot of people go to study there, work in offices, etc because they know that this will look good on their resume.

Wages in Poland are extremely uneven. That's the biggest problem.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Oct 29, 10, 15:56 #32
David_18: longterm this causes a huge braindrain in Poland. Almost all Poles going to the UK return sooner or later. However, most of the Poles who went to the US in the 60's-80's, never returned to PL.

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Oct 29, 10, 16:26 #33
SzwedwPolsce: Almost all Poles going to the UK return sooner or later. Are you sure?

Chicago PollockThreads: 10 Posts: 638 Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂	Oct 30, 10, 06:13 #34
zetigrek: certainly one more: Is that the article? He doesn't say anything (he didn't substantiate his arguments). A little optimism goes a long way. Don't be so Polish (morose).

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 30, 10, 10:59 #35
Foreigner4: POLES HATE PAYING EACH OTHER (or anyone) FAIR WAGES. Doesn't everyone? I'm trying to find an English teacher at the minute - and of course, paying as little as possible for the best quality is what I want!

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Oct 30, 10, 19:13 #36

I am surprised that that statement came from one so young. As you grow older in Poland, you learn to ignore your fellow Poles. At least that's how it appears in many places here. However, they rapidly grow disillusioned when they come into contact with clerks, a necessary part of Polish life. There's no getting round it really.

I respect those that stay behind and enjoy the good things that Poland has to offer. Their naive romanticism about life abroad may backfire as their heart isn't fully in it. We all know that many Poles are driven by their heart. I keep coming across Poles that tried to make a fist of it in the UK but their romantic leanings meant that they didn't give 100%.

Poland is just over 20 years out of communism. Much rebuilding needs to be done and outsourcing roadwork, for example, to Chinese people is hardly encouraging given the number of able-bodied Poles that could be doing that work. I hate to say it, being a social democrat of sorts (God I hate labels), but Poland needs to invest in courses in capitalism. Not the 'I'm alright Jack' brand but more along the lines of the self-made man, consonant with the American Dream.

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Edited by: warszawski Oct 30, 10, 22:23 #37

Barney:

What has happened is that they are used to good wages now and are worried that their standard of living will drop when they go home. Ireland has given them money and work experience so perhaps they will be better placed to find reasonable work.

From what I understand there is no longer any jobs for the Irish in Ireland,never mind the Poles. In respect of PL and the exodus, if the PL government imposed a fine on all university grads that left PL within 5 years of graduating, that would soon put a stop to the brain drain.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 30, 10, 22:25 #38
Imposing a fine would be against the free movement of people notion. They are free to move around as they please within the framework of the rules.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Oct 30, 10, 22:30 #39
warszawski: if the PL government imposed a fine on all university grads that left PL within 5 years of graduating, that would soon put a stop to the brain drain. that might work, if they (students) paid for their place at university and are then given the money back if they stay after graduating.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 30, 10, 22:34 #40
As I said before, we cannot underestimate the bureaucratic factor here. It is a major turnoff for many. When Poles say 'welcome to Poland' after encountering negativity, they know what they are talking about. I really believe that too many Poles make life difficult for one another.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,389 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Oct 30, 10, 22:51 #41
Seanus: They are free to move around as they please within the framework of the rules. It is not about freedom of movement, more cost of education. They do it to Doctors in PL, they have to work x amount of hours at state hospitals even though they have their own practice.

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Edited by: Barney Oct 30, 10, 22:59 #42

warszawski:

In respect of PL and the exodus, if the PL government imposed a fine on all university grads that left PL within 5 years of graduating, that would soon put a stop to the brain drain.

Free movement of people is an important tenet of democracy. As Wroclaw said you would have to make them pay first; an exit tax wont work, is immoral and I suspect illegal.

Edit

warszawski:

They do it to Doctors in PL, they have to work x amount of hours at state hospitals even though they have their own practice.

I think something similar happens in Britain (Its free on the job training for the private sector). Doctors can also work in private practice throughout their careers, a kind of double jobbing forbidden to other occupations.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 31, 10, 01:14 #43
Wroclaw: that might work, if they (students) paid for their place at university and are then given the money back if they stay after graduating. What good does it do to have half a million psychologists graduating every year? Make students pay for their education, easy enough. Student loans, DO NOT SUBSIDIZE EDUCATION! Anytime anything is partially subsidized, its price increases.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Oct 31, 10, 01:18 #44
subsidize for top 1 or 2% academically top students

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,111 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Oct 31, 10, 01:22 #45
Foreigner4: POLES HATE PAYING EACH OTHER (or anyone) FAIR WAGES. <ding> <ding> <ding> .. and we have ah winnah, folks.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 31, 10, 01:28 #46
f stop: subsidize for top 1 or 2% academically top students Nothing wrong with scholarships.

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Oct 31, 10, 01:40 #47

convex:

What good does it do to have half a million psychologists graduating every year?

You can’t let the market dictate otherwise we would have three million business graduates.

f stop:

subsidize for top 1 or 2% academically top students

That happens in the west; post graduate students (the top students) get grants or are sponsored by business. Is there not something similar in Poland?

Education is not the same as TV where the more you pay the more you get. Sure there is the basic package but we all want more:)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 31, 10, 02:11 #48
I see two major faults in this country. The distorted perception of money. Many people seem to think 5500PLN a month (gross) is superb. It's quite ok for sure but nothing to write home about. The second is the acceptance without too much questioning. For4 was right on the ball with his comment. They offer little in general.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,389 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Oct 31, 10, 02:32 #49
Seanus: The distorted perception of money. It is quite worrying the way the Poles are so focused on money, they will tell you it is because they have not had it before. No, it is a lack of values and responsibilty in the work place. They behave like a bunch of mercenaries, they have no loyalty to the company they work for, no wonder employers treat them bad and keep them down

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Oct 31, 10, 09:47 #50
warszawski: It is quite worrying the way the Poles are so focused on money, they will tell you it is because they have not had it before. No, it is a lack of values and responsibilty in the work place. easy to say. i hate when someone from "the rich west" tell us that we are materialists and that's why we are so wrong... yep maybe for those who ate too much so now have bellyache.

MEMBER ♂

Oct 31, 10, 09:56 #51

warszawski:

It is quite worrying the way the Poles are so focused on money, they will tell you it is because they have not had it before. No, it is a lack of values and responsibilty in the work place.

You have money so its easy for you to say, i suspect you were born into money so you've never known what it is really like to be poor.

"A man that has nothing has nothing to lose"

Unfortunately the situation in Poland all to often requires one to lie, cheat and scheme just to make an extra few zloty. This behavior is so galvanized into the system its hard to shake.

warszawski:

They behave like a bunch of mercenaries,
they have no loyalty to the company they work for, no wonder employers treat them bad and keep them down

Its a perpetual dog eat dog situation.

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Oct 31, 10, 10:35 #52

Wroclaw Boy:

Unfortunately the situation in Poland all to often requires one to lie, cheat and scheme just to make an extra few zloty.

Absolutely.

I was told the other day, "to make your first million you have to steal it".

it is not just about making a few extra Zloty.

http://www.wbj.pl/article-51285-polish-highway-construction-scandal.ht ml

It is endemic throughout the system al the way to the top.

http://www.thenews.pl/international/artykul142295_poland-more-corrupt- than-botswana--claims-sleaze-watchdog.html

Having said all that i still like Poland and enjoy living here.

♂ [Suspended]

Oct 31, 10, 13:07 #53

convex:

What good does it do to have half a million psychologists graduating every year?

Make students pay for their education, easy enough. Student loans, DO NOT SUBSIDIZE EDUCATION! Anytime anything is partially subsidized, its price increases.

It doesn't do any good, and all it does is stop them being unemployed for a few years.

I'm convinced that the "free education" policy in Poland is simply to keep the amount of unemployed people down and it has nothing at all to do with education.

Heck, I met two PhD's working in first line QA work - doesn't that tell you that the education system is badly in need of reform?

Barney:

That happens in the west; post graduate students (the top students) get grants or are sponsored by business. Is there not something similar in Poland?

There are small scholarships, but nothing worthwhile. It would make far more sense to introduce fees for all but the best students - with the caveat that the grades are routinely double checked by outside invigilators.

warszawski:

It is quite worrying the way the Poles are so focused on money, they will tell you it is because they have not had it before. No, it is a lack of values and responsibilty in the work place. They behave like a bunch of mercenaries,
they have no loyalty to the company they work for, no wonder employers treat them bad and keep them down

You can see this among young women - no-one is going to hire a woman just out of university, because there's a widespread assumption that she's going to want to get pregnant quickly. The worst thing is that it's quite true - you get people with 1-2 years work experience after university deciding that they want a baby, or just after they get the permanent contract in their hand.

Given that many people have the attitude here of "**** everyone else, I'm allright Jack" - I'm not surprised that many employers treat them like crap in return.

♂

Nov 1, 10, 22:32 #54

Seanus:

I really believe that too many Poles make life difficult for one another.

My observations do corroborate your sentiments. It's funny in a sad way, Poland is in many ways like a team filled with superstar players who compete against each other instead of the other team.

And I'll state it again:

POLES HATE PAYING EACH OTHER FAIR WAGES.

If owners/employers were on the receiving end of such contracts, they'd cry bloody murder, yet this seems to be the very tune which locks in the frequency in terms of their employee value. I've seen it far too often and across too wide a spread of business activity.

It's a joke really.

rt3dThreads: 18 Posts: 56 Joined: Mar 9, 08 ♂	Nov 1, 10, 23:39 #55
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/01/tech_grads_jobs/

meaganThreads: - Posts: 21 Joined: Oct 22, 10 ♀	Nov 2, 10, 06:39 #56
[quote=zetigrek]warszawski: It is quite worrying the way the Poles are so focused on money, they will tell you it is because they have not had it before. It's not they are focused on money,they just want to survive.They wanna go abroad to find a greener pasture,and nothing wrong with that.

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Nov 2, 10, 08:05 #57

If I may add a dew words as a freshly emigrated female who's graduated more or less recently, greed really isn't the biggest issue. Fear of unemployment is.

Polish universities are not only completely unrelated to working reality, they are detached from reality as it is. That being said, a part-time job during university years, something most likely natural to most of you, to Polish students is hard to get at the very least, and if you have any ambition to do well at the uni - pretty much impossible. The hours are just too random. Most of Polish graduates come out of the uni holding a master's degree and no working experience AT ALL, save for whatever they've managed to do during summer breaks, or the last year. I've been browsing job offers in Poland for some time before leaving, and I'll tell you one thing: at least 2 years of experience in the field is a basic requirement for every and any job. There's an old Polish joke about an ideal secretary - 18 years old with 20 years experience. Sadly, it's very real.

Right now, In Japan, I'm working two part-time jobs AND going to school, and by some magic force still manage to go out with friends from time to time. I buy my groceries in cheap supermarkets, live with two flatmates and hardly manage to keep much from one month to another, but I get to pay for my school by myself, cover rent, living expenses, and from time to time go to the cinema or eat out, without taking a broken zloty from my mother. And this is pretty much the only thing that counts. I don't expect to get rich, I wouldn't study philosophy if I did, but the sole idea of being 25 y.o. and a parasite living on my mother's single salary... it's bad enough to drive me to the other side of the globe.

As a foreigner in a country of xenophobia pretty much acknowledged by law, and openly preferring male workers, I still have a better chance of getting a decent job here next year than I would in Poland.

Now please, tell me one good reason to go back to Poland, other than failing to extend my visa.

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